THC and Delta 9 drinks

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Beat

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Beat
I assumed someone asked this but I could not find results to my search.

With the popularity of hemp-infused seltzers, is there any guidance from FAA as to its use and pilots?

I was grabbing a seltzer at a deli and the person at the counter told me it had Delta-9. I didn’t know what that meant. He explained. Then I got something else. If he didn’t tell me, and I drank one or two of these, would I have to wait a month to fly? Or could I fly the same day? The ingredients said 5mg Delta-9 THC. I heard THC may take 30 days to work out of your system.

So, what guidance, if any, is there? What effects might this drink have on a person? And if this is a really childish question, mock me if you want. I can laugh at myself. But even after 30 years in the music business, I’ve avoided all forms of drugs. So I’m really clueless on this stuff.
 
Delta 9 is problematic. This is the intoxicating form of THC and is absolutely forbidden and will flunk you on a simple ten panel test. If the clerk tried to convince you it is benign, she's either stupid or lying.

Even CBD which are not officially disqualifying are going to cause you grief in a commercial setting.
 
flyingron said:
Delta 9 is problematic. This is the intoxicating form of THC and is absolutely forbidden and will flunk you on a simple ten panel test. If the clerk tried to convince you it is benign, she's either stupid or lying.

Even CBD which are not officially disqualifying are going to cause you grief in a commercial setting.
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To clarify, the clerk alerted me it had Delta-9. But I had a friend who had been buying those seltzers there and never knew it had THC. He thought it was just grapefruit seltzer. It really made me wonder, what if - with all the prevalence of these drinks - a person drank them and had no idea they were even for 21+. It is simply in the same cooler as the other seltzer's and bottled waters.

Are you familiar with these drinks? 5mg Delta-9: is that enough to have an effect on a person or is it a marketing gimmick? Is that like 4% alcohol?
 
The FAA will not tolerate the gutting of it's only useful chemical measurement tool. Airmen on monitoring are thus responible to "GUARD THEIR PEE".
 
bbchien said:
The FAA will not tolerate the gutting of it's only useful chemical measurement tool. Airmen on monitoring are thus responible to "GUARD THEIR PEE".
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There's no reason to think the OP is on a monitoring program, so it seems the question is what of ordinary airmen.

Are you sure she said Delta 9 and not Delta 8? At concetratuons higher than .3%, Delta 9 is the illegal THC, even if from hemp. Drinking something containing that would be like smoking a joint as far as the feds are concerned. Delta 8 and others derived from hemp aren't illegal substances, so the answer should be don't fly while under the influence of it, if it is indeed intoxicating in the drink, which I would bet it's actually not.

The FAA's previous guidance on CBD, prior to legalization of hemp-derived products containing only trace amounts of Delta-9 suggests that you should be ok as long as you don't fly under the influence and don't treat positive on a THC drug screen, which the FAA warned you may do even if the Delta 9 concentration is advertised as below the threshold.

That may give you comfort in honestly filling out medxpress if you only used Delta-8, but you'll still have a problem if you do indeed test positive on a drug test.

It would be nice if there was updated FAA guidance, but I don't they're going to say that legal THC is ok.
 
Beat said:
…With the popularity of hemp-infused seltzers, is there any guidance from FAA as to its use and pilots?
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Must be a local thing, first I’ve heard of this. Then again, I’ve never consumed an energy, either.

I try to live a simple life; if I don’t know what’s in it, I’ll pass and take my chances with lead in tap water.
 
There was a stink about it here in Connecticut, I saw such seltzers in the local package store and wondered how it could possibly be legal. Apparently some smart stoners figured out that the 0.3% limit meant you could have up to (doing the math here) 1021mg of THC in a legal 12oz beverage, which I gather would be a heroic dose... 5mg is a "standard" dose, which I'm told will get an inexperienced user quite buzzed. The CT legislature scrambled to fix the rules and close that loophole, dunno the details, but the package stores are back to just selling alcohol.

But, it raises an interesting dilemma: it seems that if a person consumed one or more <0.3% THC beverage (apparently still legal under federal law?), they could truthfully answer "no use of illegal substances", but still test positive on a drug test.
 
Yes to whoever replied to Dr Chien: I am not on a monitoring program. I am a private pilot flying with a Basic Med. I don’t know the difference between Delta 8 and Delta 9. All I know is these drinks are legal here. This one in particular was called Wildflower. Which sounds natural, pretty, and whimsical to a person who keeps a wildflower garden to attract butterflies and bees. They are supposed to be 21+ but I am over 50. No reason to card me. And the drinks are in cute colorful cans next to the Gatorade Zero, Bai antioxodant, and Smart Waters. The deli sells no alcohol. In SC, nobody needs a liquor license to sell it. And while the state has banned the personal home shipment of non alcoholic (under .05%), the shipment to homes of these drinks is allowed.

But please stop assuming I’m trying to get high. I spent decades playing punk and rock music in bars all over this country. I never wanted to get high while everyone else around me was. So I don’t think I’ll start now. I’m pointing out how easy this stuff is to get, how it is presented as harmless and benign, and how problematic that can be.

For a medical perspective, I’d like to avoid the “you damn degenerates need to pee in a cup reply.” What is the length of time that Delta 9 (or 8 or whatever) will have an effect on your capacity to fly and what is the length of time a person needs to avoid flying after non use.

For example, if a person takes a prescription on the FAA list and stops taking it, they must not fly for 5 times the dosage interval. If it is a pill to take very 8 hours, once they stop taking it, they have to wait 40 hours before flying, right? What about these hemp-infused drinks? What is the FAA guideline?
 
Beat said:
For example, if a person takes a prescription on the FAA list and stops taking it, they must not fly for 5 times the dosage interval. If it is a pill to take very 8 hours, once they stop taking it, they have to wait 40 hours before flying, right? What about these hemp-infused drinks? What is the FAA guideline?
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You're not going to get a direct answer from the FAA because the FAA doesn't want to acknowledge that this is legal. But you should not fly if you're under the influence of any altering substance. Note that the fact that THC metabolites may stay in your system for weeks does not mean you're under the influence. The effects of THC are measured in hours. YMMV.
 
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Lindberg said:
You're not going to get a direct answer from the FAA because the FAA doesn't want to acknowledge that this is legal. But you should not fly if you're under the influence of any altering substance. Note that the fact that THC metabolites may stay in your system for weeks does not mean you're under the influence. The effects of THC are measured in hours. YMMV.
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Oof. So the FAA is going to ignore this completely? Pretend it does not exist and operate without any attention to this change? I mean, isn't that exactly what the FAA cites pilots for doing - ignoring a problem others see as obvious after the fact?

Well I think this short thread kinda points out the fact that this might become an issue and the FAA has not provided guidance. But I will also assume, more rationally, that in the offices of the FAA, there are conversations going on about these drinks. I mean, it is insane to me that I can not legally have NA beer shipped to my home, but an 18 year old can buy these drinks at a store ( a store that does not have a liquor license), or can get any of it shipped to their home. It's not only a FAA issue, but a general legal issue and perhaps the public needs to get educated.
 
Beat said:
…For example, if a person takes a prescription on the FAA list and stops taking it, they must not fly for 5 times the dosage interval. If it is a pill to take very 8 hours, once they stop taking it, they have to wait 40 hours before flying, right? What about these hemp-infused drinks? What is the FAA guideline?
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Prescription medication has been evaluated by the FDA; Delta-(n) compounds are supplements that have not been, what criteria exists to inform regulators on intoxication (FDA’s word, not mine)?

www.fda.gov

5 Things to Know about Delta-8 Tetrahydrocannabinol – Delta-8 THC

Delta-8 THC products are not approved by the FDA and may put you at risk.
www.fda.gov www.fda.gov
 
Beat said:
Oof. So the FAA is going to ignore this completely? Pretend it does not exist and operate without any attention to this change? I mean, isn't that exactly what the FAA cites pilots for doing - ignoring a problem others see as obvious after the fact?

Well I think this short thread kinda points out the fact that this might become an issue and the FAA has not provided guidance. But I will also assume, more rationally, that in the offices of the FAA, there are conversations going on about these drinks. I mean, it is insane to me that I can not legally have NA beer shipped to my home, but an 18 year old can buy these drinks at a store ( a store that does not have a liquor license), or can get any of it shipped to their home. It's not only a FAA issue, but a general legal issue and perhaps the public needs to get educated.
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To my albeit limited knowledge, I don't think the FAA sees this as "ignoring". They've provided guidance - do not consume within the two years preceding application for a medical, and do not have records of it, criminal or otherwise, if prior illicit drug use exists. THC is still illegal at the federal level, and the FAA operates on the federal level. They don't care if it's legal in Colorado or any other state as they are the Federal Aviation Administration, not the Colorado Aviation Administration or the New York Aviation Administration.
 
The FAA is not on the fence about this. THC (delta-8/9) in any concentration is incompatible with flying no matter how you receive it and whether it is technically legal in your state or not in that form.

CBD they issue a staunch warning on. They say that it's FDA unrecognized and that they don't have a policy protecting it, but that if it shows up on a drug test you're still sunk.

You can debate about the efficacy of CBD or the relative merits of THC against other (legal) intoxicants, but that's the FAA policy. There's tons of stuff that has been legal for a long time that are still prohibited by the FAA from alcohol to various prescription drugs.
 
SkyChaser said:
To my albeit limited knowledge, I don't think the FAA sees this as "ignoring". They've provided guidance - do not consume within the two years preceding application for a medical, and do not have records of it, criminal or otherwise, if prior illicit drug use exists. THC is still illegal at the federal level, and the FAA operates on the federal level. They don't care if it's legal in Colorado or any other state as they are the Federal Aviation Administration, not the Colorado Aviation Administration or the New York Aviation Administration.
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Are you saying that if a person has one of these drinks, they need to not apply or reapply for a medical for TWO YEARS? I can't find that anywhere.
 
Beat said:
Are you saying that if a person has one of these drinks, they need to not apply or reapply for a medical for TWO YEARS? I can't find that anywhere.
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Yes. It's on the medical form. "Check yes if there is any illegal substance use in the past two years". Question 18n on the medexpress form. THC is still an illegal substance federally.
 
I went to a couple of THC seltzer websites to see what they say about legality (and now I have to delete my browser history):

They all mention the 2018 Farm Bill and say that makes it federally legal. I’m not going to take legal advice from these places, but it’s what they say:

>>>

Is Delta-9 THC Legal?​

Unless you live in a state where marijuana has been legalized, Delta-9 THC is legal only when derived from hemp and when present in a product in quantities below 0.3%.

While that may sound like a minuscule amount, it actually can add up to be a potent dose in edible products. For example, a gummy that weighs 4 grams can contain up to 12 mg of Delta-9 THC.
<<<
 
Matthew said:
They all mention the 2018 Farm Bill and say that makes it federally legal. I’m not going to take legal advice from these places, but it’s what they say:

>>>

​

Click to expand...
www.fda.gov

Hemp Production and the 2018 Farm Bill

Testimony: Amy Abernethy, Md, Phd., FDA Office of the Commissioner, Before the Senate Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry, 7/25/19
www.fda.gov www.fda.gov
 
flyingron said:
www.fda.gov

Hemp Production and the 2018 Farm Bill

Testimony: Amy Abernethy, Md, Phd., FDA Office of the Commissioner, Before the Senate Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry, 7/25/19
www.fda.gov www.fda.gov
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>>>
The passage of the 2018 Farm Bill has led to the misperception that all products made from or containing hemp, including those made with CBD, are now legal to sell in interstate commerce. The result has been that storefronts and online retailers have flooded the market with these products…
<<<
 
This gets crazier! I get that the med form asks if you used any illegal substance in past 2 years. The whole line reads "Substance dependance or failed a drug test ever; or substance abuse, or use of illegal substance in past 2 years." Wow. You have to know what you are talking about to answer this right. First off, in at least one year, the CDC said that any time you have more than 2 alcoholic drinks in a 24 hour period or more than 14 in a week, you are abusing the substance of alcohol. So if you ever had more than two beers while watching a football game, or more than one big glass of wine at dinner, you have abused alcohol. That is for men. For women it was half of that. I've seen airline pilots stumbling along the streets at St. Pat's day who probably checked that box as "no." Now that has definition of binge drinking changed and the CDC says up to 5 beers (of 5% alcohol, not heavier IPAs), for men and 4 for women is the limit on any occasion. Above that, you are abusing. So you'd have to know the current definition of abuse and the definition of abuse for when you had those drinks if the definition had changed since your last medical. Heck, I bet at some office gatherings, two servings of holiday egg nog are beyond the definition of binge drinking. And also the restaurant pour of two glasses of wine. How many people answering that question would think their day of tailgating last year would require them to check the box that they abused alcohol?

As far as these energy drinks, you'd have to know the seltzer you legally purchased at the corner deli has a federally illegal substance sold under the legal .3% level of the farm bill. When a person thinks of illegal substance, they would most likely think of buying from a street dealer.

So I can see how someone would not report that as ingesting an illegal substance if they didn't know the parameters of the definition of "illegal."

As far as me personally, I'll just avoid these seltzers and keep my eye out when I get drinks at grocery or gas stations here. I have no need or desire for what they offer. Even if I wasn't a pilot. I'm just kind of amazed at the state of all of this.
 
With the popularity of hemp-infused seltzers

Should read: With the popularity of doing drugs

And if they are "popular", I guess I'm no longer "in"...(maybe I never was lol).
 
Again, as Dr. B says, guard your urine. While these things may get by in society, if you want to fly (especially commercially), you need to steer clear.
 
SkyChaser said:
Yes. It's on the medical form. "Check yes if there is any illegal substance use in the past two years". Question 18n on the medexpress form. THC is still an illegal substance federally.
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But that's the problem: at concentrations under 0.3% it's not an illegal substance, even at the federal level. The farm bill was written with raw dried plant material in mind, where that low a concentration would make it non intoxicating if you smoked it because the dried plant itself weighs so little. The lawmakers probably figured they were OK at that percentage. It never occurred to them that if added to a dense material like water you could have a significant amount while still staying under 0.3%, which is the loophole that has yet to be closed (again, at the federal level).

The law simply hasn't caught with the new reality.
 
Matthew said:
>>>
The passage of the 2018 Farm Bill has led to the misperception that all products made from or containing hemp, including those made with CBD, are now legal to sell in interstate commerce. The result has been that storefronts and online retailers have flooded the market with these products…
<<<
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This is a statement from the FDA that some of these products may be regulated under the Food Drug and Cosmetic Act, and may be sold in violation of that act. That doesn't make them controlled substances or illegal substances.
 
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Dana said:
But that's the problem: at concentrations under 0.3% it's not an illegal substance, even at the federal level. The farm bill was written with raw dried plant material in mind, where that low a concentration would make it non intoxicating if you smoked it because the dried plant itself weighs so little. The lawmakers probably figured they were OK at that percentage. It never occurred to them that if added to a dense material like water you could have a significant amount while still staying under 0.3%, which is the loophole that has yet to be closed (again, at the federal level).

The law simply hasn't caught with the new reality.
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This seems to be the correct answer. Whether the sale of these drinks violates the FD&CA doesn't make Hemp-derived Delta-8 or Delta-9 below .3% (contrast with synthetic) an illegal substance. That would be like saying that asprin purchased in Mexico is an illegal substance. No one (I hope) discloses Mexican asprin as an illegal substance on Medxpress. The FAA has said though that if THC metabolites show up in your urine, its not going to care where they came from. That's a position that's tenable for now, but may not be for much longer, and the vast majority of pilots take no drug tests. The FAA has already been struggling with state-by-state legalization. It seems very likely that at some point it will have to deal with federal legalization. I am certain there are internal discussions under way in this regard.

NB: There are many legal drugs, prescription and otherwise, that the FAA considers fully incompatible with flying for various reasons. So far, the FAA's discussions regarding Marijuana have centered around its illegality. It will be interesting to see which category the FAA eventually puts pot in.
 
I anticipated this discussion would enter a holding pattern, continuously circling without any clear landing in sight. But I was wrong.
 
Lindberg said:
…The FAA has already been struggling with state-by-state legalization...
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How so?

People may not like a one-size fits all policy, but that doesn’t mean it’s a regulatory struggle. There’s also plenty of prescription medicines that mere use is disqualifying. And 91.17 is pretty clear
§ 91.17 Alcohol or drugs.
(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft—
…
(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or
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Folks may not want to accept that marijuana and/or THC derived product use can result in impairment.

Unless the argument is that marijuana is not a drug because it’s a plant and that’s like saying murder is not a crime.
 
Country Flier said:
With the popularity of hemp-infused seltzers

Should read: With the popularity of doing drugs

And if they are "popular", I guess I'm no longer "in"...(maybe I never was lol).
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If doing dope is what it takes to be ''in'', I am glad I was never ''in''.

I feel fortunate that as a kid growing up in Texas in the 60s/early 70s, we would get the living snot beat out of us by our friends if we tried ''harmless grass'' or any other illegal substance.
 
Beat said:
This gets crazier! I get that the med form asks if you used any illegal substance in past 2 years. The whole line reads "Substance dependance or failed a drug test ever; or substance abuse, or use of illegal substance in past 2 years." Wow. You have to know what you are talking about to answer this right. First off, in at least one year, the CDC said that any time you have more than 2 alcoholic drinks in a 24 hour period or more than 14 in a week, you are abusing the substance of alcohol. So if you ever had more than two beers while watching a football game, or more than one big glass of wine at dinner, you have abused alcohol. That is for men. For women it was half of that. I've seen airline pilots stumbling along the streets at St. Pat's day who probably checked that box as "no." Now that has definition of binge drinking changed and the CDC says up to 5 beers (of 5% alcohol, not heavier IPAs), for men and 4 for women is the limit on any occasion. Above that, you are abusing. So you'd have to know the current definition of abuse and the definition of abuse for when you had those drinks if the definition had changed since your last medical. Heck, I bet at some office gatherings, two servings of holiday egg nog are beyond the definition of binge drinking. And also the restaurant pour of two glasses of wine. How many people answering that question would think their day of tailgating last year would require them to check the box that they abused alcohol?

As far as these energy drinks, you'd have to know the seltzer you legally purchased at the corner deli has a federally illegal substance sold under the legal .3% level of the farm bill. When a person thinks of illegal substance, they would most likely think of buying from a street dealer.

So I can see how someone would not report that as ingesting an illegal substance if they didn't know the parameters of the definition of "illegal."

As far as me personally, I'll just avoid these seltzers and keep my eye out when I get drinks at grocery or gas stations here. I have no need or desire for what they offer. Even if I wasn't a pilot. I'm just kind of amazed at the state of all of this.
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1. Your assumption that the Federal government's organizations are somehow one homogenized unit with consistency across the board. They are not. The fact that the Farm Bill exists has no bearing on the FAA's standards. Nor does CDC interpretation's or views have anything to do with the FAA.

2. The FAA's only view is their own rules, not any other branch of the government.

3. The FAA requires that airmen be aware of what they put in their body's. If someone is stupid enough to start drinking THC laced drinks then perhaps they may not be qualified to fly (the perspective of the FAA, not necessarily mine...).

4. In general, the FAA's perspective on drug use for private pilots is essentially no different than airline pilots. So all pilots are held to a high standard, even if you are just flying your homebuilt off your farm strip.

5. THC is THC, regardless of dosage as far as the FAA is concerned. THC is an illegal substance. The language and logic are quite simple, no matter how you try to parse the subject.

I'm guessing by your apparent "shock" at this reality means you have not been in aviation for very long. There are many aspects to the FAA's medical perspective that seem to be out of step with the modern world (or not depending on your viewpoint).
 
Beat said:
I assumed someone asked this but I could not find results to my search.

With the popularity of hemp-infused seltzers, is there any guidance from FAA as to its use and pilots?

I was grabbing a seltzer at a deli and the person at the counter told me it had Delta-9. I didn’t know what that meant. He explained. Then I got something else. If he didn’t tell me, and I drank one or two of these, would I have to wait a month to fly? Or could I fly the same day? The ingredients said 5mg Delta-9 THC. I heard THC may take 30 days to work out of your system.

So, what guidance, if any, is there? What effects might this drink have on a person? And if this is a really childish question, mock me if you want. I can laugh at myself. But even after 30 years in the music business, I’ve avoided all forms of drugs. So I’m really clueless on this stuff.
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Oh yea, I always just grab any ole product at the deli and not read the label when I need a beverage. Who would thunk Tuna Tears Soju was alcohol.
 
Clip4 said:
Oh yea, I always just grab any ole product at the deli and not read the label when I need a beverage. Who would thunk Tuna Tears Soju was alcohol.
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Well, he did say the deli sells no alcohol. If that’s the case and it’s in with the other bottled/canned drinks, one would normally not expect to find THC in it. Before today I’d never heard of a THC infused drink in my life (if you don’t include bong water, I guess). So I wouldn’t have thought to read the entire label either.

Not an issue for me personally because I’m too much of a cheap bas**** to buy the flavored drinks at a deli anyway, but I’m in a minority there.

People will go to amazing lengths to get high, and other people will find new and inventive ways to sell them stuff to get high. The difference now seems to be that they’re trying to “mainstream“ it by trying to convince people it’s just there for the “health benefits”.
 
I think the OP has identified a real problem. If it's really "seltzer," sitting next to Gatorade and Red Bull in the cooler, especially in a place that didn't sell alcohol, almost no one (certainly not me) would read the ingredients to see if it had THC in it. It seems that anything with THC or CBD generally trumpets that fact.

Years ago, there was a case of a US airline pilot who tested positive for opioids in a random urine test. He swore he was innocent. Turns out he had a headache on a layover in Toronto. He bought and took Tylenol for it, not knowing that Tylenol with codeine is OTC in Canada.
 
Great thread. I’ve learn that I’m officially an out of touch old guy who had no idea what delta 8/9/10 or 11 is or that codiene would show up as an opioid.

I don’t take drug tests right now, but still good thing I’m too cheap to buy fancy energy drinks that aren’t labeled Gatorade.
 
bflynn said:
Great thread. I’ve learn that I’m officially an out of touch old guy who had no idea what delta 8/9/10 or 11 is or that codiene would show up as an opioid.

I don’t take drug tests right now, but still good thing I’m too cheap to buy fancy energy drinks that aren’t labeled Gatorade.
Click to expand...

And here I thought Delta referred to a difference between variables...
 
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bflynn said:
Great thread. I’ve learn that I’m officially an out of touch old guy who had no idea what delta 8/9/10 or 11 is or that codiene would show up as an opioid.

I don’t take drug tests right now, but still good thing I’m too cheap to buy fancy energy drinks that aren’t labeled Gatorade.
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Codeine has been a popularly prescribed pain killer for 50 years or more, and has always been an opioid, so that's not a "old guy" blind spot.
 
bflynn said:
Great thread. I’ve learn that I’m officially an out of touch old guy who had no idea what delta 8/9/10 or 11 is or that codiene would show up as an opioid.
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After reading the title I thought this would be about a new Chuck Norris movie where Chuck beats up octogenarian bad guys...
 
Half Fast said:

​

“In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is Freedom, in water there is bacteria.”​

​

― Benjamin Franklin
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Probably not, since the Germ Theory wasn't developed until 1861.

OTOH, it's believable that WC Fields said, "Water is unfit for human consumption. Fish make love in it."
 
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