That was unexpected, at least by me

Everskyward

Everskyward

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Everskyward
Mari, when the SW pilots' union was unable/unwilling (difference?) to strike a deal with Frontier's, I strongly believed it was a dead deal. Southwest focuses very heavily upon maintaining good relations with the people whose hard work makes the airline run, and they are not about to cram something as big as this down their throats.

It was not a wasted effort; Republic, by abandoning its share of the payout from the bankrupt estate to unsecured creditors, is paying something like an extra $18M or so.

Honestly, I question whether Republic has the asset base to adequately capitalize Frontier for the long haul, and the huge wage reductions given by the employees will wear thin, and soon, but I wish them well.
 
Frontier was in a bad position anyway since they were apparently unable to find exit financing on their own. At least this way they will still be around. The other choice was to disappear. I can see the pilots' perspective from both sides. The Southwest pilots didn't want any of the Frontier pilots getting ahead of them in seniority since they were taking over a bankrupt airline. On the other hand the Frontier pilots didn't want to go to the bottom of Southwest's list. Hopefully things will work out for the employees at Frontier. I know a lot of people there.
 
I hope for the best for hem as well; it is my understanding that, with the pay rates they currently have, Frontier's senior captains have only slightly better pay than Southwest's FOs, but then again, pay is hardly the only thing that matters, too.

My views on Frontier's future, and that of its employees, is much less optimistic than the predictions and sentiment we are hearing.
 
Republic is on a tear. They just completed the acquisition of my hometown airline, Midwest Airlines. Midwest has a great brand following, and Republic is maintaining the brand.
 
SCCutler said:
I hope for the best for hem as well; it is my understanding that, with the pay rates they currently have, Frontier's senior captains have only slightly better pay than Southwest's FOs, but then again, pay is hardly the only thing that matters, too.
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You know I had to look it up...

pay_frontier2007.gif


pay_southwest2006.gif


So looking at that, a year 12 Frontier captain makes $152/hr and a year 12 Southwest FO makes $131/hr.

I think the other thing the Frontier pilots were worried about was losing their base in Denver if they were absorbed by Southwest. That's why a lot of pilots chose Frontier in the first place.
 
nddons said:
Republic is on a tear. They just completed the acquisition of my hometown airline, Midwest Airlines. Midwest has a great brand following, and Republic is maintaining the brand.
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I think it's too little, too late, sadly; the Midwest brand, and its incomparable service, have been allowed to deteriorate to the point that they are but a shadow of their former greatness.
 
As a furloughee of Republic...When is the check gonna be in my mailbox?
 
Everskyward said:
You know I had to look it up...

pay_frontier2007.gif


pay_southwest2006.gif


So looking at that, a year 12 Frontier captain makes $152/hr and a year 12 Southwest FO makes $131/hr.

I think the other thing the Frontier pilots were worried about was losing their base in Denver if they were absorbed by Southwest. That's why a lot of pilots chose Frontier in the first place.
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Not sure how many 12-year FO's Southwest has...

I imagine that, had the unions successfully negotiated a satisfactory deal and the Southwest bid accepted (almost a certainty in the circumstances), Southwest would have opened a Denver domicile. Come to think of it, though, I imagine they will anyway, because I smell a significant expansion in Southwest capacity in Denver is on the horizon.

---

Edit: Of course, most realistic seniority combinations would have likely had Frontier's pilots relatively junior, in which event they might have had a hard time holding on to their preferred domicile anyway.
 
SCCutler said:
I think it's too little, too late, sadly; the Midwest brand, and its incomparable service, have been allowed to deteriorate to the point that they are but a shadow of their former greatness.
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No doubt. I don't know if it was simply the post-9/11 nature of the airline industry, or AirTran's hostile takeover attempt 3 years ago, but as the airline tried to adapt and defend it's turf, it somewhat gutted itself.
 
SCCutler said:
I think it's too little, too late, sadly; the Midwest brand, and its incomparable service, have been allowed to deteriorate to the point that they are but a shadow of their former greatness.
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nddons said:
No doubt. I don't know if it was simply the post-9/11 nature of the airline industry, or AirTran's hostile takeover attempt 3 years ago, but as the airline tried to adapt and defend it's turf, it somewhat gutted itself.
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It was 9/11 and the nature of the airline business. The brand was already deteriorated by the time Airtran got around to making a run for them (and it's part of the reason Airtran did make a run at 'em).

I flew Midwest a lot between San Antonio and DC (one-stop at Kansas City) until they replaced the 717 mainline service out of San Antonio with a RJ. Add in the inconvenient schedule, and it made it kinda hard to stick with Midwest. (I'll add that they carried a LOT of government/military traffic on the DC-San Antonio route).
 
SCCutler said:
Not sure how many 12-year FO's Southwest has...
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I was only trying to compare what would happen if a 12 year captain at Frontier had to go to the bottom of the Southwest list making him or her a 12 year Southwest FO. Seems like they would be losing $21/hour. Of course I'm not sure that was the deal that was proposed so it's all speculation.

SCCutler said:
I imagine that, had the unions successfully negotiated a satisfactory deal and the Southwest bid accepted (almost a certainty in the circumstances), Southwest would have opened a Denver domicile. Come to think of it, though, I imagine they will anyway, because I smell a significant expansion in Southwest capacity in Denver is on the horizon.

Edit: Of course, most realistic seniority combinations would have likely had Frontier's pilots relatively junior, in which event they might have had a hard time holding on to their preferred domicile anyway.
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I think that was what people were worried about. Not only that, but many people from the bottom of Frontier's list would have been furloughed since Southwest was talking about getting rid of some airplanes even initially. I guess I'm not surprised that the whole seniority integration issue was not resolved. Doesn't it usually take months or years for different pilots' unions to come to some agreement? They were trying to do it in a couple weeks.

I don't know how successful Southwest will be at expanding operations in Denver the way things are now. United is still has the biggest share of flights here followed by Frontier then Southwest. It was probably a good strategy on Southwest's part to try to buy their competition since Frontier and Southwest together have about the same market share as United.

Dallas Morning News said:
At present, United Airlines Inc., the longtime leader in the Denver market, carries about 34 percent of Denver's traffic, while Frontier has 21 percent and Southwest is just under 14 percent.
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http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/080109dnbussouthwest.9a8dc644.html
 
Mari:

NB: Southwest has "just under 14 percent" now- and they've only been in the market since 2006.

I'm just sayin'...
 
SCCutler said:
Mari:

NB: Southwest has "just under 14 percent" now- and they've only been in the market since 2006.

I'm just sayin'...
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But even though they have 14 percent of the flights I don't think they did as well in Denver as they anticipated. They thought Frontier would roll over and then they would have a shot at United but it didn't happen that way.

Here's someone's (actually many people's) view on it.

Southwest's surprise bid for Frontier has been the talk of the industry during the past week. But despite Southwest's bold move – which puts it into competition with Republic Airways – some prominent industry observers say they think Southwest is acting not from a position of strength, but from a position of weakness. TheStreet.com is one of the outlets to report on that angle, writing "Southwest's bid to buy out bankrupt Frontier in Denver may be viewed as a sign of its failure in the market." The Wall Street-focused publication claims that "by nearly every measure, Southwest has underperformed in Denver."
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A second take: Is Southwest's Frontier bid 'a sign of failure' in Denver?
 
What's surprised me is the attitudes in some of the comments on the Denver Post's article. You'd think that Frontier and Southwest were sports teams.

I like them both. Southwest has an airplane painted as the Maryland flag, which is just a neat scheme (but I've only gotten to fly on Shamu, to my disappointment); but Frontier has cute animules on them.

At any rate, it will be nice to see Frontier stick around (at least short term - I think the longer term prospects are a bit hazier). I've had good experiences with them; and I do like the moving map. Not knowing where I am is, for me, the worst part of airline travel.
 
I understand loyalty to the home team, I really do, but there has been so much silly animosity over this thing. Frontier was in poor financial shape, they were forced into bankruptcy (the triggering event being a precipitous change in terms by a credit card servicer), and because they were unable to arrange exit financing on their own, were subject to an auction. Absent a buyer, they're dead.

Their recent better performance is encouraging, but has been achieved by being relieved of the obligation to pay a huge portion of their existing debt; I could make my books look pretty good, too, if I were allowed to slough off a bunch of those pesky payables. In addition, the employees of the airline have accepted very large cuts. Excellent esprit de corps, but under the new ownership (no longer a Denver company, are they?), I do not expect it to continue.

So Southwest offered to buy the carrier, with an offer which would have paid the creditors of the airline a LOT more money, but the pilots' unions were unable to agree- and this I understand.

There is no question that Southwest have done better in Denver than many expected, but less well than they had hoped- this is to be expected when competing against an airline which is relieved of many of its ongoing obligations, but I am confident that Southwest will grow Denver, will do so profitably, and will in the process continue to treat its employees like the valued team members that they are, paying them the best compensation in the industry.
 
Everskyward said:
We can see your loyalties too. ;)
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Hey,I was devastated when the original Frontier was bought and killed by PeoplExpress, and surprised when Continental honored seniority when they acquired the assets after buying PE. The original Frontier was a class act, and I have no doubt the new one is a good bunch as well. I've tried to fly them a few times, but found fares which left me gasping.

I am a supporter of Southwest, as I know a lot of folks there, and I know how they treat their people (well), and their customers (well). I did not and do not regard Southwest's bidding for Frontier as a hostile act, and I genuinely believe that, had the respective unions been able to work out their differences (a tall order, as you know), the Southwest acquisition would have left Frontier and its people in a much better position for long-term success.

Which is to say, I am not particularly impressed with the way any of the regionals regard their personnel, and will be surprised if that does not flow through to Republic's dealings with the Frontier people. Hope I am proven wrong.
 
SCCutler said:
I did not and do not regard Southwest's bidding for Frontier as a hostile act,
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I don't know that I would use the word "hostile" but I wouldn't call it benevolent either. Business is business and the airline business is pretty cutthroat.

SCCutler said:
and I genuinely believe that, had the respective unions been able to work out their differences (a tall order, as you know), the Southwest acquisition would have left Frontier and its people in a much better position for long-term success.
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The top half of Frontier's pilots may have done OK in the end but the bottom half not so much so since they were probably looking at a long furlough.

SCCutler said:
Which is to say, I am not particularly impressed with the way any of the regionals regard their personnel, and will be surprised if that does not flow through to Republic's dealings with the Frontier people. Hope I am proven wrong.
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There's that too and you never know how things are going to turn out. Ten years ago if you were a pilot in Denver with airline aspirations the airline of choice was United. Then after 9/11 it became Frontier. Now it's ???
 
Everskyward said:
The top half of Frontier's pilots may have done OK in the end but the bottom half not so much so since they were probably looking at a long furlough.
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Prediction:

They are anyway.

We'll see.
 
A rising tide lifts all ships; I hope I am wronger than wrong, for all the right reasons.
 
SCCutler said:
Prediction:

They are anyway.

We'll see.
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Just look at what happened with Midwest's pilots for an idea of what can happen. They would have ended up better off with the Airtran deal.

We'll see.
 
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