That time we smoked a TBM 930....

[MooneyDriver78]

Of course we know that to double the speed we need eight times the power assuming all other things stay the same. Let's see... you're calculating 150 ktas on 7.5gph so the mooney would need 60 gph to double the speed. The commander is doing it on 64 gph while having two engines, a lot more room, weather protection, and is pressurized. I think it is doing pretty damn good!

Only if at the same altitude, go higher, less air resistance. The Mooney 252 is 50 mph faster on only 5% more horsepower than the J but that's at FL240. There is a reason jets and turboprops like to fly high.
Note the FF at idle! I like to see what the FF was on climb out.

 

[denverpilot]

Nice.

 

[N747JB]

Dash 10 Garretts are probably the most fuel efficient way to fly high and fast! I burn 62 GPH at 21,000 trying at 255 knots! The real deal with those engines is RVSM, my old 441 was great in the low 30's!
If you compare the Commander to a 421, the 421 will cost as much or in fuel on just about any trip over 200 miles! My average trip from Atlanta to Destin is about 250 miles, it's about $30-40 more each way in fuel costs.

 

[stratobee]

Dash 10 Garretts are probably the most fuel efficient way to fly high and fast! I burn 62 GPH at 21,000 trying at 255 knots! The real deal with those engines is RVSM, my old 441 was great in the low 30's!
If you compare the Commander to a 421, the 421 will cost as much or in fuel on just about any trip over 200 miles! My average trip from Atlanta to Destin is about 250 miles, it's about $30-40 more each way in fuel costs.

That's the conclusion I came to as well. A fire breathing big piston twin, especially with the geared engines, like a Duke, Commander 685, 421 etc will cost on par, or perhaps even more, than a Garrett turbine twin to run (Conquest, MU-2, Commanders etc). Here's a comparison someone else made:

GTSIO-520 overhaul: $70K/1600 hours
Exhaust: $10K/1600 hours
Oil changes: $250/50 hours
Magneto work: $1500/500 hours
Top overhaul: $15K/1600 hours (one per TBO)
Fuel: 22 GPH block/hr, $5.50/gal

Total works out to $68/hour without fuel, $188/hour with fuel.

TPE331-10 overhaul: $225K/5000 hours
Exhaust: none
Oil changes: $400/900 hours
Fuel nozzles: $800/400 hours
HSI: $40K/5000 hours (one per TBO)
Fuel: 37 GPH block, $3.50/gal

Total works out to $55/hour without fuel, $185/hour with fuel.

 

[Luvrv8]

Is the the same Commander that had a leak on the Oxygen system a year or so back? If so what was the problem, I remember he was pulling his hair out trying to get it fixed and ****ed at the amount of money he was paying a mechanic that couldn't find the leak.

 

[stratobee]

Is the the same Commander that had a leak on the Oxygen system a year or so back? If so what was the problem, I remember he was pulling his hair out trying to get it fixed and ****ed at the amount of money he was paying a mechanic that couldn't find the leak.

Might have been. He did say it had a 200CFM leak at some point, which they thought was acceptable. He wanted it down to 100CFM and they said it's almost impossible to get below 120CFM. In the end I think they sealed it to 100CFM. Takes a little vigilance and some painstaking work, but it's doable. Door seal was the main culprit, I think he said.

 

[Luvrv8]

I was talking about the oxygen bottle system.

 

[Ted]

That's the conclusion I came to as well. A fire breathing big piston twin, especially with the geared engines, like a Duke, Commander 685, 421 etc will cost on par, or perhaps even more, than a Garrett turbine twin to run (Conquest, MU-2, Commanders etc). Here's a comparison someone else made:

GTSIO-520 overhaul: $70K/1600 hours
Exhaust: $10K/1600 hours
Oil changes: $250/50 hours
Magneto work: $1500/500 hours
Top overhaul: $15K/1600 hours (one per TBO)
Fuel: 22 GPH block/hr, $5.50/gal

Total works out to $68/hour without fuel, $188/hour with fuel.

TPE331-10 overhaul: $225K/5000 hours
Exhaust: none
Oil changes: $400/900 hours
Fuel nozzles: $800/400 hours
HSI: $40K/5000 hours (one per TBO)
Fuel: 37 GPH block, $3.50/gal

Total works out to $55/hour without fuel, $185/hour with fuel.

I think that in general that math works. However it can be done cheaper. For one, GTSIO-520s don't usually have top overhauls (TSIO-520s do). The exhaust doesn't have to be a replacement, it can be an inspection and replace what needs replacing, or in some cases repair. The mags you can choose to do every 500 hours or you can do on condition (I do the latter), and it depends on what mags you have. Bendix mags will go a lot longer than Slicks. Fuel burn... depends completely on how you run it. Most people in the big turbo field run ROP, but you can run them LOP for significant savings. Right now we run ROP because the engine monitor, but will switch to LOP later.

The big difference on the piston side vs. the turbine side is the ability for owner maintenance. We recently adopted a project 414, and I'm able to do a huge sum of maintenance on it myself. I don't see that being done as much with turbines, nor do I see the ability to. I can rebuild the engines on the 414 myself with an A&P overseeing. Turbines? Nope. I can run the engines on the 414 way past TBO provided they're in good shape (as Dave Siciliano did on his P-Baron). Turbines? Depends on the airframe.

If you're not someone who is in a position to turn wrenches yourself, then I absolutely agree a turboprop twin is going to be better than a fire breathing piston. If you're in the position of being able to turn wrenches yourself (like me), then the pistons can make a lot more sense. Of course, acquisition cost is another factor, and that may drive one to pistons vs. turbines.

For Cloud Nine, the 414 is a great fit. I'm able to do a great sum of the work under supervision of an A&P (and I have an A&P who's good with this), it was effectively an even trade for the 310 on price (which was the only way it was going to happen), and I know the plane and the systems very well. Do I wish we could have a turboprop? Absolutely. Admittedly the 414 is a lead sled (I'm tempted to start using "Lead Sled 620CA" on the radio), and the poor performance traits create a certain pucker factor during critical phases of flight. But, I also have a lot of upgrades planned that will help. Still, nothing near a turboprop. I did specifically exclude a 421 from the list because of the extra failure modes and cost associated with the geared engines.

 

[James_Dean]

Lol, I just stroked a $24k check to OH two props with 500 hours on them. I had no choice. Ted gets to make a call and do a lot of work. Based upon my limited experience with both piston and turboprop twins-

1. A piston will damn near always have something going on for the owner to deal with. You have to be diligent and engaged to keep the dispatch up and the bills reasonable.

2. A turboprop will rarely have mx issues. Most everything will be planned, and the costs are predictable but large.

The red herring is fuel costs. I think the conquest is lower per mile than a 421 but probably marginally higher than Dr. Ted running his TSIO's.

P.s. Adam, when is your plane going to fly?

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Lol, I just stroked a $24k check to OH two props with 500 hours on them. I had no choice. Ted gets to make a call and do a lot of work. Based upon my limited experience with both piston and turboprop twins-

1. A piston will damn near always have something going on for the owner to deal with. You have to be diligent and engaged to keep the dispatch up and the bills reasonable.

2. A turboprop will rarely have mx issues. Most everything will be planned, and the costs are predictable but large.

The red herring is fuel costs. I think the conquest is lower per mile than a 421 but probably marginally higher than Dr. Ted running his TSIO's.

P.s. Adam, when is your plane going to fly?

Not so sure I agree with #2

 

[James_Dean]

Not so sure I agree with #2

Rarely, as in compared to a piston. Not rarely as in almost never.

 

[stratobee]

P.s. Adam, when is your plane going to fly?

I'd almost say never, that way I won't get disappointed.

They're doing final rigging of engines/power this week. Then I go for work abroad again for 2 weeks, then mum comes to visit, so maybe by end of Sept? At this point I've resigned myself to it happening sometime before I die...

 

[DavidWhite]

Other than a starter going on a caravan, In 1,000 hours of turbine time I've never had anything engine related break.

Pistons OTOH......

 

[Abram]

Lol, I just stroked a $24k check to OH two props with 500 hours on them. I had no choice. Ted gets to make a call and do a lot of work. Based upon my limited experience with both piston and turboprop twins-

1. A piston will damn near always have something going on for the owner to deal with. You have to be diligent and engaged to keep the dispatch up and the bills reasonable.

2. A turboprop will rarely have mx issues. Most everything will be planned, and the costs are predictable but large.

The red herring is fuel costs. I think the conquest is lower per mile than a 421 but probably marginally higher than Dr. Ted running his TSIO's.

P.s. Adam, when is your plane going to fly?

This is very similar to my experience. When I owned piston twins, I was constantly dealing with maintenance issues. It was just a fact of life.

Since switching to turbine equipment, I have far fewer unscheduled maintenance issues and I have never had to cancel a trip because of maintenance. My dispatch reliability has been outstanding through both my Meridian and my Eclipse. I also agree that when things break, it is a much more expensive event.

The Eclipse is an extremely efficient airplane and I have found that my fuel costs now are actually lower per mile than they were in any other airplane. I do trips for as short as 200 miles and as long as 1,400 miles relatively routinely. On the short trips, there is a fuel penalty, but it is not too bad. On longer trips, I end up burning less fuel than I would have in the other planes because of the time that I save on the trip. I find that the break even point for me is somewhere around 600 nm trips. For example, a common trip for me is between Ft. Lauderdale, FL and Hickory, NC. The trip is about 670 nm and used to take me about 3 hours in the Meridian. It now takes me about 2 hours in the Eclipse. In both airplanes I burned about 900 lbs.

So, for the same fuel burn, I get the increased performance, higher altitude, better weather capabilities and two engines. Pretty cool deal!

Abram Finkelstein,
N48KY

 

[Ted]

Lol, I just stroked a $24k check to OH two props with 500 hours on them. I had no choice. Ted gets to make a call and do a lot of work.

And the work never stops, as you point out below. Of course, part of that is my own fault for buying projects, but as you found, you can buy a top end piston twin and still have a good number of issues. A good part of why I keep going with project piston twins is because, in my observation, they're all projects - you can just spend more on a hopefully "lesser" project or spend less on one you know is going to be a project.

Based upon my limited experience with both piston and turboprop twins-

1. A piston will damn near always have something going on for the owner to deal with. You have to be diligent and engaged to keep the dispatch up and the bills reasonable.

2. A turboprop will rarely have mx issues. Most everything will be planned, and the costs are predictable but large.

Pretty much. It also depends on what shape you buy one in. You bought the Conquest in great shape. Buy an older, timed out turbine and...

The red herring is fuel costs. I think the conquest is lower per mile than a 421 but probably marginally higher than Dr. Ted running his TSIO's.

I'd imagine that your $/mile fuel costs on the Conquest are still lower than the 414. Your time to climb is probably about the same (might even be better) and your cruise speed is 50% higher (or better).

Of course, your purchase costs were significantly higher, but you bought a very nice Conquest where we got a bottom of the market 414 that had been sitting.

Most people I see who are flying 340s, 414s, and 421s could pretty easily afford a turboprop, but are afraid of the jump. And of course if a PT-6 is toasted (which is rare but does happen), it's a quarter mil event or higher. We're an oddity. That's no surprise since I'm odd. Fortunately I have an understanding wife and the family enjoys airport day.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Thanks guys....I'm now relishing in my low cost Bonanza....200kts ain't all that bad.

 

[James_Dean]

And the work never stops, as you point out below. Of course, part of that is my own fault for buying projects, but as you found, you can buy a top end piston twin and still have a good number of issues. A good part of why I keep going with project piston twins is because, in my observation, they're all projects - you can just spend more on a hopefully "lesser" project or spend less on one you know is going to be a project.

Pretty much. It also depends on what shape you buy one in. You bought the Conquest in great shape. Buy an older, timed out turbine and...

I'd imagine that your $/mile fuel costs on the Conquest are still lower than the 414. Your time to climb is probably about the same (might even be better) and your cruise speed is 50% higher (or better).

Of course, your purchase costs were significantly higher, but you bought a very nice Conquest where we got a bottom of the market 414 that had been sitting.

Most people I see who are flying 340s, 414s, and 421s could pretty easily afford a turboprop, but are afraid of the jump. And of course if a PT-6 is toasted (which is rare but does happen), it's a quarter mil event or higher. We're an oddity. That's no surprise since I'm odd. Fortunately I have an understanding wife and the family enjoys airport day.

Agreed. Adam is a saint for taking on a project turboprop. I can't imagine.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N425XP/history/20160825/2110Z/05C/KSPW/tracklog

On the climb rate - Lots of heading changes and two level offs with a request both times to give max rate up - it was busy. It took 14:52 to go from 900ft to FL240 for an average of 1550 fpm. Take out two minutes for the level off and it was closer to 1800. That was at ISA +18 and about 500 under gross.

 

[EdFred]

I prefer smoking a 420.

Wait, what?

 

[Bill]

Or maybe a nice butt.

 

[Ted]

On the climb rate - Lots of heading changes and two level offs with a request both times to give max rate up - it was busy. It took 14:52 to go from 900ft to FL240 for an average of 1550 fpm. Take out two minutes for the level off and it was closer to 1800. That was at ISA +18 and about 500 under gross.

I'm finding in the 414 that I like flying in the mid teens. This may change as I get more improvements done on it, but it works well for now. For a similar load to what you had, I figure that 15k would probably be in the range of 20 minutes or so, maybe 15 at a full power climb. Much of it depends on whether I do a full power climb vs. a cruise climb (which on the stock engines/props is 31.5"/2450 RPM, pretty pulled back). Full power climb is much better performance and I don't think much different on fuel burned because of it, but much louder. The MT props will change that part of the equation. Regardless, 15 minutes is faster than I'd normally expect for a typical climb to 15k in ISA+20ish conditions.

 

[N747JB]

Agreed. Adam is a saint for taking on a project turboprop. I can't imagine.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N425XP/history/20160825/2110Z/05C/KSPW/tracklog

On the climb rate - Lots of heading changes and two level offs with a request both times to give max rate up - it was busy. It took 14:52 to go from 900ft to FL240 for an average of 1550 fpm. Take out two minutes for the level off and it was closer to 1800. That was at ISA +18 and about 500 under gross.

Last night it took me 18 minutes to go from sea level to FL210, probably 6-700 under gross with a pretty straight climb, your -135's do make a difference!! What speed do you use for normal climb out? I use 160 around ATL, since I am not going up more than a couple thousand feet at a time and 150-160 through 10K then 140-145 up to the flight levels coming out of Destin with an almost unlimited climb.

 

[EdFred]

I'm in the wrong business.

 

[N747JB]

I'm in the wrong business.

No, you just probably waste a bunch of money on savings and retirement planning!!
My dad always says, "Spend and God will send." It's been a joke in our family for years!

 

[EdFred]

No, you just probably waste a bunch of money on savings and retirement planning!!
My dad always says, "Spend and God will send." It's been a joke in our family for years!

Even if I saved 0 I couldn't afford the fuel burn on a jet for more than a handful of hours a year.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Man what a badass airplane. I love the turbo commanders.

 

[N747JB]

Even if I saved 0 I couldn't afford the fuel burn on a jet for more than a handful of hours a year.

I'm just messing with you, I understand how fortunate I am to get to own and operate my airplane! To be honest, fir the joy of flying, I prefer the 182!

 

[denverpilot]

I called a dispensary today... They hadn't heard of "TBM 930".

#coloradojoke #badone #nodonutforNate

 

[3393RP]

I was fortunate to get a demo ride in a new 680 back in the 80's. Commander had a booth at the Offshore Technology Conference in Houston (where millions were spent every year on extravagant showoffery). I picked up a brochure and the company pilot running the booth offered me a demo flight. I didn't encourage him, figured there was no way they would spend the money on me, a nobody with a comped ticket to get into the show.

The guy called me about 10 times in two months, I kept turning him down because I knew I would feel bad later about taking advantage of them. At the time I had about 200 hours.

Time passed...one day my dad mentioned he wanted to go to Gulfport to attend a prebid conference for a big remodel at the Naval Air Station, probably a $3-4 million job. I dialed up the Commander guy and he said he would pick us up at Andrau Airpark (now a subdivision) the next morning.

The next morning we're standing in the FBO and I hear the guy on the CTAF. It was raining hard and Andrau had an NDB on its only runway. I was looking out the window and suddenly this beautiful plane drops out of the overcast, hits the TDZ perfectly and splashes to a dramatic and noisy stop using beta.

I was grinning like a hick farmer.

We flew to Gulfport and back, had a 120 knot tailwind overflying New Orleans and I found out taxiing a Twin Commander was as difficult as I had anticipated. I was all over the place.

So we got this incredible free ride, I was able to do a little flying, and the experience was awesome. I never led the guy on, made it clear I wasn't gonna buy a $1.4 million aircraft anytime soon, but he still treated us like I had a checkbook in my pocket. I decided he must have had a quota or leftover budget or something.

But damn it was fun.

 

[red4golf]

All I can say is wow.... simply wow. I need a new job. Anyone looking for a slightly used Tank Commander with personal security (bodyguard) experience in a combat zone and budget management / program management experience?

Ok, so affording that kind of plane with my background might be a stretch. Anyone of you filthy rich guys or gals (I say that with nothing but love) need a combat tested bodyguard that is also willing to be your personal pilot and possible boy (or older man) toy*? I have a degree in EE so I can fix your laptop if it breaks..... I had better stop now, I think that I'm starting to sound desperate.



*some restrictions apply to the boy toy comment*

 

[denverpilot]

All I can say is wow.... simply wow. I need a new job. Anyone looking for a slightly used Tank Commander with personal security (bodyguard) experience in a combat zone and budget management / program management experience?

Ok, so affording that kind of plane with my background might be a stretch. Anyone of you filthy rich guys or gals (I say that with nothing but love) need a combat tested bodyguard that is also willing to be your personal pilot and possible boy (or older man) toy*? I have a degree in EE so I can fix your laptop if it breaks..... I had better stop now, I think that I'm starting to sound desperate.



*some restrictions apply to the boy toy comment*

Overqualified. heh heh.