Tesla stock plunge continues after Model S battery fire

[No Joy]

Like I said, Tesla isn't all it's cracked up to be. Batteries like lithium batteries can be dangerous no matter what name you associate it with. It's not as safe as some people are claiming. Tesla is a great car in many ways, but it's not as good as many claim.

3 (Reuters) - Tesla Motors Co's stock price took another hit on Thursday and its sales were likely to suffer following a battery fire in its flagship Model S sedan in Washington state this week, analysts said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/03/autos-tesla-fire-idUSL1N0HT0C220131003

Brand New Tesla Electric Car Catches Fire After Collision!
http://youtu.be/Ua9MgWqqaPM

Tesla Stock Tumbles After Model S Catches Fire Near Seattle
http://youtu.be/Pphr7WyNBWU

 

[murphey]

Time to talk to Boeing about batteries....

 

[LDJones]

Wow, they burn very impressively. Think of the carbon emissions from the blaze....probably exceeded all they had saved by being "green" powered.

 

[SCCutler]

Tesla's buzz is (from a financial perspective) unsupportable, but their technical and design achievements are impressive.,

One fire? Meh.

 

[ron22]

How big of hit has Cirrus taken over the fact there planes go up in flames nicely too?
I think in the long run Tesla will be fine. But I am nut a financial planer and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

 

[DavidWhite]

I saw one of those the other day. I'm intrigued by electric motors just because the fact you have access to all your power instantly.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Freak accident, nothing more. Similar could happen to any gasoline vehicle.

What is "impressive" about the Tesla are the repair costs. A guy I know was in an accident with his Tesla, trashed the rear quarter panel. About $25K (insured) and 2-3 months later he had his car back. Similar damage on a "traditional" car, without the aluminum structure, would likely have been 1/3 to 1/2 that amount.

 

[MAKG1]

Wow, they burn very impressively. Think of the carbon emissions from the blaze....probably exceeded all they had saved by being "green" powered.

Umm, lithium is not carbon.

If you burn lithium (or more to the point, lithium cobalt oxide), you make no change to the total carbon budget.

Now, the replacement cost can involve a lot of carbon burning, but it's not significantly different for a traditional gasoline car (hybrids, with dual drivetrains, may be a bit different here, but Teslas aren't hybrids).

 

[No Joy]

One fire? Meh.

Mark my words, there will be more.

No Joy August 2nd, 2013, 12:04 PM

Upside:
From a performance aspect, lithium batteries are some of the best with current technology. Lithium batteries are generally less harmful to the environment than some batteries.

Downside:
Lithium batteries also tend to be more of a fire and explosive hazard than most other batteries.

Lipo Battery Fire
http://youtu.be/C5_-eBbDE0s

It will be interesting to see how well the Tesla batteries hold up as they become older and when/if they grow in popularity.

As the lithium car batteries age, and more of them get involved in accidents, and exposed to water and other chemicals; I suspect there will be more fires and explosions involving vehicles with lithium batteries.

Not that I necessarily think Tesla's batteries are any worse or better than other manufacturers. My point is batteries tend to be dangerous, especially high-performance batteries like lithium. As they gain popularity, get older and get involved in more accidents; there is going to be more notable lithium battery fires and explosions.

 

[No Joy]

Umm, lithium is not carbon.

If you burn lithium (or more to the point, lithium cobalt oxide), you make no change to the total carbon budget.

Who said carbon emissions is a byproduct of lithium burning? Don't you think other parts of the battery and vehicle are made from carbon compounds? Don't you think that the lithium battery fire spread to other components of the battery and vehicle?

 

[LoneAspen]

I'm still rooting for Tesla, and alternative-power vehicles, to "make it".

I don't care so much about the green aspect of it (never been much of an environmentalist), it's more the uncertain future of fossil fuels that concerns me.

I don't think anybody knows for sure how many years/decades of fossil fuel availability we have left. There are so many opinions and studies floated around, it's just lies, damn lies, and statistics.

A Tesla would fit my mission perfectly, for where I live right now (Silicon Valley). No stopping at gas stations, could recharge at night in my own home, has enough range to get me up to wine country and back, and a nicely constructed vehicle (although I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "luxury car").

Of course, the two main barriers to widespread acceptance are cost (which I have to believe will come down with economies of scale), and lack of a nationwide recharging network (much harder to accomplish, IMO).

But...Elon Musk has done some pretty cool stuff thus far, and I think if there's one person who might be able to spearhead this, it's him. Personally, I think it's kind of cool that a guy out of left field has accomplished this much.

It'll be interesting seeing where we are in another 10 years with respect to alternate-power vehicle price, infrastructure, and adoption.

 

[No Joy]

Some allegations is the vehicle wasn't even in a crash. Allegedly the driver merely drove the Tesla over debris in the road, and the debris damaged the battery.

It is believed that metal debris on the freeway pierced the battery and caused the fire
http://www.dailytech.com/Tesla+Model+S+Catches+Fire+Stock+Takes+a+Tumble/article33491c.htm

It sounds like the Tesla lithium battery fire was more difficult and dangerous to extinguish then typical automotive fires.

In an incident report released under Washington state's public records law, firefighters wrote that they appeared to have Tuesday's fire under control, but the flames reignited. Crews found that water seemed to intensify the fire, so they began using a dry chemical extinguisher.

After dismantling the front end of the vehicle and puncturing holes in the battery pack, responders used a circular saw to cut an access hole in the front section to apply water to the battery,

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2013/10/03/tesla-says-car-fire-began-in-battery-after-crash/

 

[ron22]

Some allegations is the vehicle wasn't even in a crash. Allegedly the driver merely drove the Tesla over debris in the road, and the debris damaged the battery.

Chevy side saddle gas tank blew up in crashes
Ford Pintos gas tanks blew up if rear ended.

It was so sad to see Chevy & Ford go out of business because of this.

 

[LJS1993]

I saw one of those the other day. I'm intrigued by electric motors just because the fact you have access to all your power instantly.

No torque lag or rpm lag to deal with. I used to be totally against its development but I must say guys the price of gas has changed my mind.

 

[Non Compos Mentis]

Good thing driving over sharp debris could never damage a gasoline-powered car!

 

[No Joy]

Good thing driving over sharp debris could never damage a gasoline-powered car!

When comes to safety, the Tesla is more like a Ford Pinto then the Shangri-La that many people portray it to be.

 

[Non Compos Mentis]

But technology marches on, and these problems will be overcome.

When the Pruis was introduced, a freind helped create a training video for police and fire crews on how to handle a Prius accident scene. There are some things to do, other things to NOT do, and once learned, will no longer be seen as problems.

Of course you know that the Pinto story was wildly exaggerated, as other Ford products had identical gas tanks in the identical location with no stories of fires.

Along with the phonied GM truck explosions, makes for great headlines for the news crews trying to establish themselves as cutting-egde journalists.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

When comes to safety, the Tesla is more like a Ford Pinto then the Shangri-La that many people portray it to be.

The Tesla's crash test ratings do not substantiate the above statement.

 

[bluee]

You have made it clear in previous threads that you do not like the Tesla. Or hate the Tesla. Don't buy one. You are clearly looking for any faults it may have.

Other cars crash and burn too but do not make news. Or have exploding tires: Ford Explorers a few years ago. Why don't you complain about them.

I am impressed with Elon Musk and what he has accomplished in a few years. I also like that he is single-handedly trying to change the car dealer system. I hate car dealers, and I would rather buy a car directly from the manufacturer, which I did the last time I bought a Volvo. I want to see what transpires with Tesla in the next five years or so.

 

[ron22]

Yea we should switch to bashing RVs or other experimentals

 

[LDJones]

Umm, lithium is not carbon.

If you burn lithium (or more to the point, lithium cobalt oxide), you make no change to the total carbon budget.

Now, the replacement cost can involve a lot of carbon burning, but it's not significantly different for a traditional gasoline car (hybrids, with dual drivetrains, may be a bit different here, but Teslas aren't hybrids).

There were no carbon emissions in all that black smoke??

 

[douglas393]

I have a friend who has a Tesla and loves it. It is a cool looking care, and drives well. For me it probably would not work because I would forget to plug it in at night, or be to lazy to plug it in(happens with my cell phone too often). Whether or not it is going to be the wave of the future I do not know. Sooner or later we will no longer be able to use fossil fuels as we have for the last 75 or so years, and something will replace it. As for price, the Tesla is out of the price range for most of the population and I think in its present formulation will be a car for the upper middle class and above. So I do not think it is the solution for problems with fossil fuels, and production of greenhouse gases. Remember, also much of electricity is still made with nonrenewable sources so it is probably a wash in this respect as well.

 

[No Joy]

The Tesla's crash test ratings do not substantiate the above statement.

The real-world field results do not match Tesla's crash test results.When it comes to real-world statistics, the Tesla is closer to the Ford Pinto.

Some might conclude the Ford Pinto is safer, it had a reputation for catching on fire after an actual accident, whereas Tesla has a reputation for catching on fire after running over a piece of debris. Some might conclude the Ford Pinto is also safer for emergency responders, the Tesla fire kept reigniting, water made the Tesla fire worse, and emergency responders had to cut in to the burning car to get to the battery while under a risk of explosion.

 

[LDJones]

Freak accident, nothing more. Similar could happen to any gasoline vehicle.

What is "impressive" about the Tesla are the repair costs. A guy I know was in an accident with his Tesla, trashed the rear quarter panel. About $25K (insured) and 2-3 months later he had his car back. Similar damage on a "traditional" car, without the aluminum structure, would likely have been 1/3 to 1/2 that amount.

Repair horror stories aren't limited to them. A friend bought a new Kia. It got hit while in a parking lot two days after he bought. It's been in the shop for 140 days waiting on parts. Rental car bill has exceeded $7K but they won't total the car since the damage didn't reach 70%....but with the rental car it will be in excess of that.

 

[LDJones]

Chevy side saddle gas tank blew up in crashes
Ford Pintos gas tanks blew up if rear ended.

It was so sad to see Chevy & Ford go out of business because of this.

And you think Tesla has the resources that a Ford or Chevy did at that time??

 

[Sac Arrow]

I really like the idea, and I think the technological problems with the batteries will be overcome. Problem is it's way too expensive. Payback calculations only pencil out if you compare it to an exotic sports car. I'm just not willing to pay more than mid twenties for a passenger sedan, period. End of discussion.

Gasoline burns and explodes, and it can be managed - so can Lithium ion batteries.

 

[ron22]

whereas Tesla has a reputation for catching on fire after running over a piece of debris.

May not have a reputation YET but you are working on it

 

[ron22]

And you think Tesla has the resources that a Ford or Chevy did at that time??

No but I was just trying to point out this may not be the death of Tesla someone seems to want.

 

[Non Compos Mentis]

Gasoline burns and explodes, and it can be managed - so can Lithium ion batteries.

Summed up very nicely! Thank you!

I briefly considered a Tesla Roadster when they came out. Not becuae it's electric, but because it's such a cool sports car.

Bought an airplane instead, very happy with the decision.

 

[flyingron]

Yeah, like gasoline cars never catch on fire.

 

[PW_Plack]

I really like the idea, and I think the technological problems with the batteries will be overcome. Problem is it's way too expensive. Payback calculations only pencil out if you compare it to an exotic sports car...

What numbers are you penciling in for depreciation and fuel costs? If you look at cost of ownership, not just original purchase price, those two numbers are critical.

The big unknown for me would be the cost of replacement batteries.

I don't consider myself a greenie, but I bought a corded electric lawn mower because I don't like being forced to support Big Oil and enemies in the Middle East. Most of my driving involves missions that could be met with even old lead-acid battery technology. Since we have two cars, we could use the gasoline-fueled one for road trips. I will certainly be watching Tesla.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

The real-world field results do not match Tesla's crash test results.When it comes to real-world statistics, the Tesla is closer to the Ford Pinto.

In order to evaluate the above claim, you'll have to provide some data here. First, I suspect the Pinto's safety record wasn't nearly as bad as its reputation. Second, you're telling us that a heavy vehicle with 40 years of more advanced safety technology has a similar safety record to a Pinto.

Either back that up with valid statistics or go away and stop wasting electrons.

 

[PW_Plack]

The real-world field results do not match Tesla's crash test results.When it comes to real-world statistics, the Tesla is closer to the Ford Pinto...

Really? Where are you getting your "real world" data?

Have there even been as many Teslas involved in real-world crashes as have been intentionally test-crashed?

If you can show us something beyond an obvious agenda, I'd love to know more.

 

[steingar]

Yeah, like gasoline cars never catch on fire.

The real problem is gasoline cars catch fire and burn so often that hey fail to even make local news outside traffic reports. One Tesla burns and the whole thing is jinxed. Oh well, haters gotta hate.

 

[Challenged]

http://i.imgur.com/sBcU8cN.gif

 

[bluee]

What numbers are you penciling in for depreciation and fuel costs? If you look at cost of ownership, not just original purchase price, those two numbers are critical.

The big unknown for me would be the cost of replacement batteries.

I don't consider myself a greenie, but I bought a corded electric lawn mower because I don't like being forced to support Big Oil and enemies in the Middle East. Most of my driving involves missions that could be met with even old lead-acid battery technology. Since we have two cars, we could use the gasoline-fueled one for road trips. I will certainly be watching Tesla.

Off topic, but I bought a Black and Decker cordless electric lawn mower in 1997. It worked great, but after about fourteen years, the battery stopped charging. I bought a new Black and Decker cordless lawn mower last year. Great product. Push a button and on it goes.

 

[Capt.Crash'n'Burn]

I don't care so much about the green aspect of it (never been much of an environmentalist), it's more the uncertain future of fossil fuels that concerns me.

Bio-diesel grown from algae looks very promising. Gas engines can always be converted to run on alcohol.

 

[Sac Arrow]

What numbers are you penciling in for depreciation and fuel costs? If you look at cost of ownership, not just original purchase price, those two numbers are critical.

The big unknown for me would be the cost of replacement batteries.

I don't consider myself a greenie, but I bought a corded electric lawn mower because I don't like being forced to support Big Oil and enemies in the Middle East. Most of my driving involves missions that could be met with even old lead-acid battery technology. Since we have two cars, we could use the gasoline-fueled one for road trips. I will certainly be watching Tesla.

Well what I'm saying is for the average driver, you would have to compare a $100,000 Tesla with something well over $50,000 to be equivalent on a cost of ownership basis (although maintenance, and as you point out battery costs, are a big unknown.) Same reason why hybrids don't work out economically for most drivers.

Could you convince me that the cost of ownership of a $100,000 Tesla is equivalent to a $50,000 Infinity? Possibly, depending on the mileage assumptions although I think that would be a stretch. But it would be a moot point, I wouldn't buy a $50,000 Infinity anyway. You would have to give me something equivalent to an $18,000, 40 mpg Corolla. For my current driving needs, an electric couldn't cost much more than that.

 

[Alexb2000]

The real-world field results do not match Tesla's crash test results.When it comes to real-world statistics, the Tesla is closer to the Ford Pinto.

Some might conclude the Ford Pinto is safer, it had a reputation for catching on fire after an actual accident, whereas Tesla has a reputation for catching on fire after running over a piece of debris. Some might conclude the Ford Pinto is also safer for emergency responders, the Tesla fire kept reigniting, water made the Tesla fire worse, and emergency responders had to cut in to the burning car to get to the battery while under a risk of explosion.

Tell me you're shorting the stock, at least I'll understand your fantastically negative preoccupation with Tesla.

Flown anywhere interesting lately?

 

[steingar]

Bio-diesel grown from algae looks very promising. Gas engines can always be converted to run on alcohol.

Agreed. Microbes are the most likely next-gen source of fuel. They are highly efficient, and can be engineered to do just about anything. Microbes can eat oil spills. Biochemically catabolizing oil is creating oil run backwards. The chemical reactions are all reversible.