Tesla Pickup Unveil

I am of the mindset an EV is a good second vehicle for a family. They can use it for errands and short drives, but parked beside it is a gas powered vehicle for their trips, towing, etc. I just don't see it being their only vehicle for about 95% of people. I'll use my GF as an example, she may not go anywhere for 2 or 3 days, just work from her home office, then need to do a road trip that has her driving 500 to 800 kms per day, for two or three days in a row. The logic behind her new car she recently purchased is that its awd for the winter roads, and easy on gas, plus it fit her needs. If she had an EV she would need to own multiple vehicles. This part of the world has limited options for plugging in an EV anywhere, including overnight at hotels. I imagine in certain towns, a select hotel may offer this quick charge option, but I don't know of any. She would literally have to buy a high end generator and carry it with her, whenever she stops fire it up and plug the car into it. If we lived in a city there might be some merit to us owning one EV out of our numerous household vehicles, but as it is now, they are extremely impractical. When her mother drives up to visit us, her tesla can just make it here in the summer, it wouldn't have the range come winter. She brings along an extension cord, plugs it into the outlet on the side of our house, and doesn't touch it for days, we drive her around while here so it can recharge, and she can go home when its fully charged. She even drives it like a 109 year old granny to use less energy driving both ways, no take any side excursions at all, and drive the shortest route, because the route she would like to take, is impossible for it. And she special ordered the long range version, not the standard version. She is scared to run the AC or heat, forget about enjoying the drive as a spirited one. She is economy mode and driving as easily as possible on the battery. And the thing is, she really doesn't live very far away, if she were to live in Vancouver, Prince George, or actually in the majority of the provinces land area, not just over in Nelson, she would not be able to get here in it. She bought it I think because she wanted to pretend to be young and hip, go with the new trend. After her divorce she died her hair blonde, started working out, bought a funky house, and got a tesla....then regretted the tesla about 24 hours later from what she has said. In our last conversation, she is likely going to sell it, and buy another gas vehicle.
So are they good for a few people, sure...but they are not the right choice for many others. With winter weather now, she doesn't even have the option of driving to visit us. I will fly down an get her around Christmas time, and bring her up, then fly her home again.
 
*re power tools off air compressor: it's likely not using the same suspension air compressor that most other cars would (duh).. the 6X6 mercedes (and many others) can inflate all 6 of their massive tires fast.. and many people in the FJ Cruiser club have electric compressors and tanks that they have bolted to their rigs somewhere they use for many functions

*range: how many people actually do road trips and need travel over 400 miles in one sitting? In the last 5 years I've gone on exactly TWO car trips where I needed to empty my full gas tank and recharge it.. also remember, if you plug in at home, or at work, you theoretically always have a full battery.. so every time you get in your car you can go 400 miles.. extremely doubtful that 90% of people actually need that kind of range

*towing capacity: clearly this is NOT geared towards construction crews or horse people or farmers.. the typical person buying a $70K luxury pickup just for the looks is going to use their towing capability how many times... once, zero?

*looks: it's goofy AF.. they were clearly going for an F117 or Wally Power look.. I think the propertions for the car are weird.. but we've figured out by now that that's what Musk get's after.. he enjoys being a little counterculture..

*glass breaking: that's bonkers... and really doesn't prove anything
 

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MIFlyer said:
what GFI breaker for 240V?

Yes, you need to run new wire, if your panel isn't in the garage like 1/2 of them are. If I was doing this. I'd go ahead and pull a big enough wire to have a 60 or 80 A subpanel in the garage to cover other things I might want to do over time. Without consulting the tables, I think you need 8/3 wire, unless the length is far.
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I gotta go 60 feet to get from the panel to the garage. Some places require a GFCI in garages. I have them in mine.
 
EdFred said:
I gotta go 60 feet to get from the panel to the garage. Some places require a GFCI in garages. I have them in mine.
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60ft would be nice unencumbered would be nice.
I have a finished basement with the joists running perpendicular to the run from panel to garage; and three stone foundation walls in the way. One is two feet thick (outer) and two internal walls about a foot thick.

Tim
 
chartbundle said:
Well, they're all about $100 at Home Depot for any panel. Code(if adopted for your jurisdiction) requires a standard personnel(5mA) rated GFCI for all car charging applications.
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Que? wow, this is news to me. I've never heard of a 240v GFCI. I just looked them up.

OK, TCO moves 2 weeks (about fuel savings for two weeks of my usage)
 
EdFred said:
I gotta go 60 feet to get from the panel to the garage. Some places require a GFCI in garages. I have them in mine.
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Thanks Ed. I was aware of the GFCI requirement for 120v receptacle in wet and damp locations, but hadn't heard about for 240V until today. I haven't wired a garage in a couple of years.

Edited to add:

I've learned that hardwired chargers don't need this, so I'd actually just run 50A or 100A 240V into a double gang box in the wall, then surface mount a permanent charger on top of that. No GFCI required by NEC 2017 and makes it easy to get the 100A setup if you want that. Put the $100 savings on the breaker into buying the $500 permanent charger.

100A @ 240V is a whole lot of charging per hour
 
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Shuswap BC said:
So are they good for a few people, sure...but they are not the right choice for many others.
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You have presented another of the many examples of a Tesla not being the right vehicle for the mission.

But I would reword your sentence above and switch the places of "few" and "many".
Of course, I live in Florida. It doesn't freeze and we have no hills. I believe the highest point in Florida is 300 ft AGL. And being a big tourist state, we do have a lot of hotels with some sort of charging station. But we do use air conditioning year round.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well to be fair, the engineering has function. The problem is, you don’t have to sacrifice design for function. If they tweak some things here and there so it has more personality than a stainless steel fridge, I would think about getting one. I’m not a truck guy but it’s hard to turn down utility if the $$$ is right. Fairly certain they won’t make the price point though.
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I wasn’t complaining about the engineering of the truck itself, just that it’s doesn’t appear to to do the simple things well because they were so worried about being edgy and offering gimmicks. The slanted roofline and apparent blind spots (cameras notwithstanding) are evidence of that. Is an air ride suspension really needed? I mean, I’m not sure why most need the ride height to be variable or to have heavy 35” tires as stock. That’s sort of Ford Raptor territory, which is great for a niche product, but not practical or even desirable for most daily drivers and those who use a truck for “truck stuff”.

If they are going for a niche market product, great, have at it. If they wanted to beat the Big 3 at their own game, the CyberTruck is probably a missed opportunity.

Again, I don’t understand the mentality that an EV has to be radical in design to win in the marketplace. It just has to be similar to an existing vehicle in appearance/function, but with an EV drivetrain and the benefits that the latest EV-tech provides. If the cost is the same or very close to the ICE version, people will convert.
 
JOhnH said:
You have presented another of the many examples of a Tesla not being the right vehicle for the mission.

But I would reword your sentence above and switch the places of "few" and "many".
Of course, I live in Florida. It doesn't freeze and we have no hills. I believe the highest point in Florida is 300 ft AGL. And being a big tourist state, we do have a lot of hotels with some sort of charging station. But we do use air conditioning year round.
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Did you mean 300 ft MSL.
 
MIFlyer said:
Thanks Ed. I was aware of the GFCI requirement for 120v receptacle in wet and damp locations, but hadn't heard about for 240V until today. I haven't wired a garage in a couple of years.
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I still don’t know that GFCI is common in mode building code for 220/240V circuits, probably still rare for most states. I had an attached garage built a year and a half ago, which has GFCI outlets for the 120V receptacles. However, I had them add a “welder” outlet for 220V power for a welder/air compressor/EV. No GFCI included on that one.
 
I now know where they got the influence for the design and it was under my nose (basement) the whole time. Vectex arcade game straight out of 1982. E8481344-5C4A-4244-A922-F48F3AC0BE9B.jpeg
 
tspear said:
That is a good way to start a fire. Not only does it likely violate building codes, it is really dangerous.

Tim
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Neither against code, nor dangerous. 5-15 and 6-15 are both 14/2 romex, and 5-20 and 6-20 are both 12/2 romex.

An inspector might tell you to recode the white as black using electrical tape on both sides.
 
EdFred said:
Still gotta run new wire to the garage since 240 is going to need to 12-3 or 10-3 and the existing wire is 14-2 or 12-2. Unless you're suggesting to use black and white as hots and the copper as common. :eek: I always run a common, because if I'm going to have 220 somewhere, I want to make sure it will run everything that needs 220.
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You only need /3 for a NEMA 14-x (4 prong 240V) outlet. You can use /2 for a NEMA 6-x (3 prong 240V) outlet.

I wasn't suggesting putting on a NEMA 14- outlet on /2 wires.
 
chartbundle said:
And add $100 for the GFCI breaker.
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Not sure about all EV'S, but Tesla at least ships with a mobile connector that has an GFCI breaker built into it. I think Leaf does as well.
 
EdFred said:
I would never convert existing 14-2 to 220. Nope Nope Nope.
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Ok, but whether you actually want to have a 6-15 outlet is one thing - admittedly there is not a lot that work over them. But there some appliances, like 240V refridgerators that call for 6-15 outlets, and those call for 14/2 romex.

Also consider that most of the rest of the world outside North America have 240V running on 2.5 mm2 with no neutral for their 16A breakers, which is pretty much 14/2 romex.
 
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Just for reference, this is the set of adapters Tesla has available:

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upload_2019-11-25_16-8-15.png

These are basically just an adapter with a small coded resistor built in that tells the car how much current it can draw from that outlet. That's how the car knows it can draw 16A from a 5-20 but only 12A from a 5-15. (You can manually override the current draw in the car - to a point).

Surprisingly, Tesla doesn't have either a TT-30 (120V campground) adapter, or a NEMA 6-30 adapter available (big groan), but you can pick them up from 3rd parties.
 
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SoonerAviator said:
I still don’t know that GFCI is common in mode building code for 220/240V circuits, probably still rare for most states. I had an attached garage built a year and a half ago, which has GFCI outlets for the 120V receptacles. However, I had them add a “welder” outlet for 220V power for a welder/air compressor/EV. No GFCI included on that one.
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I have never seen a outlet- or breaker-side 240V GFCI in practice the US (I know they exist). I've seen AFCI on 240V breakers, but that's different.

I actually just had two new 240V (6-30's) outlets installed a couple of weeks ago for my Christmas Lights. No GFCI. Installed by an electrician, and passed inspection that way.

I also had a 240V 14-50 outlet installed for my RV earlier this year, same thing - no GFCI, passed inspection.

Amusingly, the 5-15A 120V outlets right next to them have GFCI. Go figure...
 
MIFlyer said:
Que? wow, this is news to me. I've never heard of a 240v GFCI. I just looked them up.
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I'm not that well versed in the code but I know they've been common for years for hot tubs and pool pumps. On the other hand I suspect that the new car charging rule is one of the first requirements covering GFCI on 240v outlets.
 
chartbundle said:
I'm not that well versed in the code but I know they've been common for years for hot tubs and pool pumps. On the other hand I suspect that the new car charging rule is one of the first requirements covering GFCI on 240v outlets.
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The wording on the code is goofy. 2017 NEC says this about EV outlets:

"625.54 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. All single-phase receptacles installed for the connection of electric vehicle charging that are rated 150 volts to ground or less, and 50 amperes or less shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel."

There's at least one person that failed an inspection because "you have two separate hots at 120v, so measuring each hot to ground at the outlet you get 120v and you only get 240v when you measure hot-hot and aggregate the two, so the code applies".

And that is technically true, but a second inspector passed that install as is. So YMMV.

You can always just say you're installing the outlet for an RV... The mobile charger already comes with one - a second GFCI doesn't really buy you anything. It would be like having both a GFCI breaker, and GFCI outlet on your bathroom circuit.
 
deonb said:
You can always just say you're installing the outlet for an RV... The mobile charger already comes with one - a second GFCI doesn't really buy you anything. It would be like having both a GFCI breaker, and GFCI outlet on your bathroom circuit.
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If the mobile charger is hard wired, then yes. If it's plug based then the risk is you plugging in a wet plug into the 240v outlet that's not protected by a GFCI, it could be an enlightening experience.
(I have no idea why they decided to add it specifically for EV charging and not RVs and everything else, or why they required it for all outlets and not just outdoor ones.)

Oh, the obvious solution so you don't run afoul of the 150V or less to ground rule would be just to switch to 480V 3-phase, then you wouldn't need a GFCI.
 
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Tantalum said:
*looks: it's goofy AF.. they were clearly going for an F117 or Wally Power look.. I think the propertions for the car are weird.. but we've figured out by now that that's what Musk get's after.. he enjoys being a little counterculture..
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Ugly or not, if you were in traffic and saw a Cybertruck bearing down on you would you give way? I imagine most people would. And I imagine a number of people would buy a Cybertruck just for that factor alone.
 
If the mobile charger is hard wired, then yes. If it's plug based then the risk is you plugging in a wet plug into the 240v outlet that's not protected by a GFCI, it could be an enlightening experience.
(I have no idea why they decided to add it specifically for EV charging and not RVs and everything else, or why they required it for all outlets and not just outdoor ones.)

Oh, the obvious solution so you don't run afoul of the 150V or less to ground rule would be just to switch to 480V 3-phase, then you wouldn't need a GFCI.

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The code for where live calls for a GFCI breaker for any circuit that goes outdoors, regardless of voltage. If you are plugging the cable in and touch a prong, that can save your life.
 
Adding the outlet in the garage is not generally difficult or costly. A few hours of an electrician's time, unless your builder but the panel far from the garage. Lots of YouTube videos showing the install process.

Many garages already have 240v outlets for power tools, clothes dryers, etc.

The payback, vs. gasoline, will normally be measured in months.
 
geezer said:
The code for where live calls for a GFCI breaker for any circuit that goes outdoors, regardless of voltage. If you are plugging the cable in and touch a prong, that can save your life.
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That's not unique to outdoor though. But yes, I agree.

I personally think all breakers should be GFCI - we've done that in South Africa since the 80s, if not earlier.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Interesting perspective:
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That was interesting, and I don't really disagree with many of his points.
BUT,
I think he over-focused on towing capacity. I wish he spent some time talking about "useful load".

And he compared the base models, but the base model Chevy truck he used was a very spartan, single cab with no options. I doubt you could buy one of those if you searched the country for months.

I wish there was a fourth model that gave longer range with lower acceleration. He was right that I don't really care about 0-60 in 2.9 secs.
I would also like to have more information on the interior and any innovations inside the cab.

But like he said, for a refundable $100 deposit; why not.
 
Shuswap BC said:
Agreed.
The average home has nowhere near the spare electrical capacity to run a charging station anyway.
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Not true at all. The two largest consumers of electrical capacity in a home are the oven and clothes dryer, neither of which would be in use between 11 PM and 6 AM unless one has rather different habits. Continuous and non-continuous loads determine the available capacity of the electrical service, not connected loads. There is a difference.

Even if those appliances are supplied by natural gas, it's almost certain the average home electrical service has the capacity to operate a 240V charger, discounting 80-100 year old homes with a 60A service. Those are quite uncommon.

The most likely issue for installing a 240V circuit is a lack of breaker space in the panel, which can be solved by installing 120V 20A single pole tandem breakers, thus creating the two pole space for the charger's breaker.
 
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I wonder if the number of preorders aren't all from people actually wanting to buy, but to then sell their hold to someone else.
 
EdFred said:
I wonder if the number of preorders aren't all from people actually wanting to buy, but to then sell their hold to someone else.
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In years past, a few firms that bought delivery positions for Gulfstreams made good money if their timing was right with regards to economic expansion. However, I haven't heard much about that market in quite some time.
 
3393RP said:
In years past, a few firms that bought delivery positions for Gulfstreams made good money if their timing was right with regards to economic expansion. However, I haven't heard much about that market in quite some time.
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I know when the C7s were coming out there were a bunch of offers to people who were higher on the list. One local was offered 35k to wait a couple months for another. Could be the same play here.
 
I think a lot of it is just people who want to support the company. Likely will not go through with the purchase but wanted to help them with some cash up front.
 
Grum.Man said:
I think a lot of it is just people who want to support the company. Likely will not go through with the purchase but wanted to help them with some cash up front.
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Probably a part of our motivation. We figure we have a couple years to squirrel some money aside for the eventual purchase. Lots of things could get in the way of that purchase, and with the deposit fully refundable, it’s not much of a risk - even if Tesla collapses, it’s only $100.

After selling our TSLA position a year ago to finance our Honda Clarity PHEV - which at the time was a better fit for us than the Tesla we had been saving for ~ we’ve gradually acquired 12 shares and plan on buying 1 or 2 more shares a month from now until the Cybertruck is available for purchase. Zero guarantee the shares will go up in value, but we like being “invested” in dynamic companies and to root for their success. We don’t gamble, per sé, but realize this for the gamble it is!

Oh, and I’m leaning towards Warthog Green, but Karen’s not too sure about that!

upload_2019-11-27_7-47-17.jpeg
 
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