Tesla Model 3 - Finally.

[JOhnH]

I think most of them drive Teslas.

That’s a funny but meritless cheap shot.
I don’t own a Tesla yet but I am fully aware of the fallacy of taxing businesses.

 

[Ted]

That’s a funny but meritless cheap shot.
I don’t own a Tesla yet but I am fully aware of the fallacy of taxing businesses.

I know it was meritless, the point was the funny part. I know people with Teslas who are actually logical individuals, just like I know vegans who are logical individuals.

Mooney owners? That's a harder one...

 

[PaulS]

I think most of them drive Teslas.

I would have a hard time disagreeing with that.

 

[Cluemeister]

You mean most of them drive Teslas to the hangar to fly their Cirrus?

(confession, I own a model Y but not a Cirrus)

 

[Bill]

I know it was meritless, the point was the funny part. I know people with Teslas who are actually logical individuals, just like I know vegans who are logical individuals.

Mooney owners? That's a harder one...

This Mooney owner is too frugal to buy a Tesla as the price difference between my fun to drive STICK SHIFT Civic Si and even a base Tesla pays for 190,000mi of gas.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

And the fact that corporate taxes are passthru taxes.

I just love people who ask politicians to tax "rich corporations", they're asking to be taxed themselves.

Naw, they are taxing the high earners; those are the ones that pay the vast majority of personal income taxes.

 

[JOhnH]

I know it was meritless, the point was the funny part. I know people with Teslas who are actually logical individuals, just like I know vegans who are logical individuals.

Mooney owners? That's a harder one...

My apologies @Ted
For some reason I mistakenly thought that post was from someone else. Had I realized it was you I would have understood the humor.

 

[Ted]

My apologies @Ted
For some reason I mistakenly thought that post was from someone else. Had I realized it was you I would have understood the humor.

No apologies required and no offense taken. I have a very dry and very poor sense of humor - owing to my combined British and German genealogy. All I got from the French side was my "built-to-surrender" physique.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The way Audi does it, my pads don't touch...except on some schedule it does touch the pads instead of regen to keep the rotors clean/test them...or some such thing. I usually only notice it happening when I start out in the morning a few miles down the road at the first stop light after some speed.... and it only does it briefly, like for part of a stop or maybe a single stop. There's an indicator on the dash that lets you know what the brake pedal is doing (although you can feel a slight difference too). The only other times the pads touch is if you get into the deceleration harder than regen will handle (really floor the pedal...like almost never happens)...OR if the battery is full and there's no place for the energy to go. It really is seamless and nicely done I think. The regen gage just fluctuates based on how hard I'm pressing down the pedal. My car also has some +/- paddles on the wheel for regen, that some people apparently love but I find them to be pointless

Interesting. As long as there's an indication, that's good... Though I'd prefer to have some sort of detent or something to be able to get max regen without any friction brakes. That's where single-pedal is nice.

Believe it or not, the paddle is something I actually miss from the Bolt... But it took me a bit to get used to having it when I first got the Bolt too.

I think I understand super charging is no longer free? What does it cost?

Do the older model S's still have free super charging? Is it transferable or only for the original owner?

Is the super charging rate the same everywhere or vary by local power costs?

Good question .... all those charging centers and never any mention of how much it cost to use one ... has it been free thus far .... ???

The older Model S/X, up through maybe 2015 or so, had free supercharging for life, that transferred with the vehicle. Then, for a short time, they still had it but it didn't transfer with the vehicle. Then free supercharging stopped coming with new vehicles, with the exception of, if you used a referral code to purchase your car, both you and the person whose code you used got 1,000 free miles. That ended last week... At least temporarily. It did end for a couple months once before too.

As far as cost, it is different in different places, obviously with the places where power costs more being higher priced.

It's because it's so fast you don't have time to do anything else.

The point was, the things you're normally going to do on a road trip like pee and eat, you still have to do... And you can't pee or eat while fueling a gasser, but you can while charging an EV.

I cant **** around and wait for a car to charge while I have to see 400+ miles worth of customers in a day and still have to get home for evening commitments. Or this Atlanta trip I had to scrub a flight for but HAD to make and had 2 others relying on me to get here. Rolled out at 3am and only stopped once to fill up, and that took only 5 mins to get me another 500 miles down the road. The only other stops were to **** and that was into a rest area and out. And we're going to do it again early Monday morning and stoppinh 3 or 4 times and waiting 30 mins or whatever it is each time is not going to work for multiple reasons.

So just shut the **** up about this ******** of "no one needs to go more than 6 miles in a vechicle at a time and its so horrible I cant believe you dont have a EV yet"

Ed, I've told you before, an EV is not for you. It doesn't fit your mission, and I'm OK with that. You seem to have a problem with it being OK with other people for some reason.

FWIW, the long-range CyberTruck, when it comes out, might fit your mission... But it's certainly an acquired taste, so I won't tell anyone they should buy that either.

Thank you .... how do you pay ... can you use a credit or debit card like a self serve gas station ?

Superchargers use the payment method you have tied to your Tesla account in the app/website. They communicate with the car, so they know who you are and the payment is all automatic.

Ummm…. What?

We absolutely need to ensure that roads are equitably funded, but corporate taxes in the USA are most decidedly not “low.” They are high, often foolishly high.

Corporate tax rates are lower than they have been since before 1940... Corporations are only taxed on profits, not revenue... So higher corporate taxes incentivizes reinvestment into the business, paying employees more, etc because those increased expenses aren't taxed. But you know this... And I'm not going to answer any further replies because that's not what this thread is about.

I am a die hard big cubic inch guy from long ways back. I still prefer carburetors and distributors over computer controlled engines. Yet I am watching and trying to learn about electric cars.

Very smart...

Hopefully the intelligent EVs will know where a charging station is.

In the Tesla, if your destination is not within your range, it'll automatically route you to a Supercharger along the way... And regardless, it always shows what your approximate battery level will be when you reach the destination.

One question I have, I read about some folks don't like the one pedal for going and stopping. How does that one pedal thing work.??

When you release the pedal all the way, you get maximum regenerative braking as opposed to just coasting. When it comes to a stop, it gets held there. You never have to move your foot over to the brake pedal unless you need quicker deceleration than you get with maximum regenerative braking.

With the Bolt, having it in D gave limited regenerative braking and it would "creep" like a regular automatic. In L, it would stop fully, but if you were on an incline it could still roll, it didn't hold the brakes.

On the Tesla, you can choose three different behaviors - The default is maximum regen, and holding the brakes for you when you stop. You can also have it do limited/no regen (coast) and creep, but I forget what those settings entail exactly.

If you're on a road trip you're only going to use DC Fast Charging.

Well, during the day, yes... But if you can, it's even better to just make your overnight stops at hotels that have level 2 chargers and let it charge overnight while you're sleeping. That means one less charging stop...

 

[wayne]

The point was, the things you're normally going to do on a road trip like pee and eat, you still have to do... And you can't pee or eat while fueling a gasser, but you can while charging an EV.

Oh, I understand. I just don't need an hour to pee and grab snacks/sodas.

Did you miss my point, or are you ignoring it? The time to refuel an ICE car is so short you don't have time to do anything else, at least not anything meaningful. It's just too fast.

If you want to have an meal at a sit down restaurant with table service then recharging the car, if near enough to the restaurant, would work well. When we're on the road we tend to make a fast stop. Usually that's a bathroom break at a gas station. One of us will pump gas while the others go in to the bathroom. Those going in first will also grab the drinks/snacks if anyone wants them. The person pumping gas goes to the bathroom after pumping is done and while the others are paying for drinks and snacks. Then back on the road. If we stop for a meal it's usually a quick stop at a fast food restaurant and back on the road quickly. If there was a supercharger at the fast food restaurant you could get some charge while we're eating, but we're not in there long.

One trip we made last year would have been annoying in an EV. We drove from Atlanta to Columbia to help our daughter move out from college. It was a little over 450 miles (Interstate) round trip. We drove over, loaded our car, hers was mostly loaded when we got there, turned around and drove home. I don't remember if we ate at her place or on the way back. There's no supercharger at the house she was renting. Heck, there wasn't even a 220 outlet. So, we couldn't charge while we loaded the car. At that distance we had to refuel the car, but with an ICE car that's less than 5 min, less than 10 min if we also grab snacks/drinks. This is a very rare case for us, even more so going forward as that was our youngest child and she graduated last year.

All of that said, I'm not negative on EVs. I'm just realistic about their limitations. Same for an ICE car, I have to go to a gas station right now, with an EV I just plug in at home. My current plan is to buy an EV for my next car. But I don't plan to make long trips in it. The trip we made last weekend was only ~145 miles, so we drove. Any of the EVs I would be looking at would easily make that distance. It would be rare that I would plan to drive beyond the range of many of these EVs. If it's that far, I would much prefer to fly. Which is why I think an EV will fit my driving needs much better than for EdFred's driving needs. The vast majority of my miles are local, very local.

 

[JOhnH]

Oh, I understand. I just don't need an hour to pee and grab snacks/sodas.

Did you miss my point, or are you ignoring it? The time to refuel an ICE car is so short you don't have time to do anything else, at least not anything meaningful. It's just too fast.

I am enjoying this thread, but it really amazes me how we can rehash the same things over and over and over and over . . .

Yes, if you take an EV on a road trip you have to be aware and willing to spend time at a super charger. It is a trade off. For some, it is a good trade. Ed Fred it isn't.
Fortunately, at this time we still have a choice. Maybe in a few years the choice will be taken away but by then, hopefully the tradeoff will be minimized.

I can't wait to get an EV. But I will still fly the Bonanza when I can if the EV will be inconvenient. But even THAT is a trade off. I have to hassle with transportation at the other end. But its a trade off I don't mind.

 

[Velocity173]

This is the problem I have with EVs. When your warranty is up, you’re in uncharted waters as to how much a replacement battery will cost. Knowing how bad Tesla customer service is, it’ll be a long time to get that $22K batt replaced. And strangely enough, it seems like all these batts are failing just after the 8 year warranty. I know several on the Volt FB page that are getting charged $10-12K for an out of warranty battery replacement. Basically turns the car to junk because that’s more than it’s worth. Even a refurb batt will run $5-6K for a Volt.

Something to think about if you were looking to get a good deal on a used Model S like I was. I’m not taking the chance.

 

[Larry in TN]

So higher corporate taxes incentivizes reinvestment into the business, paying employees more, etc.

It also incentivizes NOT investing in the business when better after-tax returns can me made elsewhere. That's how higher taxes stifle growth.

Well, during the day, yes... But if you can, it's even better to just make your overnight stops at hotels that have level 2 chargers and let it charge overnight while you're sleeping.

I haven't had a chance to try this yet. How reliable is it? Are the chargers usually available or do they get taken early in the afternoon/evening?

I just don't need an hour to pee and grab snacks/sodas.

You don't need an hour to charge, either.

For the fastest overall trip time the strategy is to have more frequent, short charging session; not fewer, longer charges. Instead of "topping off" at each stop you charge only enough to get to the next stop.

The battery charges fastest at low to mid charge states. Once you get into the 75%+ state-of-charge the charge rate tapers off. For road trips you want the longer-range option car, not because you're going to drive 300+ miles between stops; but, so that you don't have to charge to a higher state-of-charge at each stop as doing so would increase your overall trip time. You'll end up charging for 15 to 25 minutes at many of the stops, not an hour. This is a bit of a trade-off for the daily convenience of never having to stop for gas when you aren't on a road trip.

A trip in an EV will take longer, but maybe not as much longer as you think. You can run sample trips, and play around with the different options, at www.ABetterRoutePlanner.com.

 

[Larry in TN]

This is the problem I have with EVs. When your warranty is up, you’re in uncharted waters as to how much a replacement battery will cost. Knowing how bad Tesla customer service is, it’ll be a long time to get that $22K batt replaced. And strangely enough, it seems like all these batts are failing just after the 8 year warranty. I know several on the Volt FB page that are getting charged $10-12K for an out of warranty battery replacement. Basically turns the car to junk because that’s more than it’s worth. Even a refurb batt will run $5-6K for a Volt.

The Model 3 LR battery warranty is 8rys/120,000mi. The design-life of the battery is 500,000mi. The upcoming 4680 batteries as expect to have a design life of 1,000,000mi. The batteries are preforming well in the very high mileage cars. This is likely due to the advanced battery management and temperature control in the Teslas.

Even in the case in that video, isn't it a single module, not the whole battery, that failed? That's a defective module, not an indication of the normal battery life. Tesla doesn't currently offer individual module replacement but most of the Tesla fleet is will under the battery warranty. If Tesla doesn't start offering module replacements, others will.

I don't know anything about the Volt, but have heard that the Bolt and Leaf both have air-cooled batteries and that has been a big factor in those battery failures. Is the Volt also air-cooled?

 

[FastEddieB]

According to a podcast I listen to, Quick Charge, it was 2 bad modules/cells and an independent shop just replaced those two for $5,000.

 

[Velocity173]

The Model 3 LR battery warranty is 8rys/120,000mi. The design-life of the battery is 500,000mi. The upcoming 4680 batteries as expect to have a design life of 1,000,000mi. The batteries are preforming well in the very high mileage cars. This is likely due to the advanced battery management and temperature control in the Teslas.

Even in the case in that video, isn't it a single module, not the whole battery, that failed? That's a defective module, not an indication of the normal battery life. Tesla doesn't currently offer individual module replacement but most of the Tesla fleet is will under the battery warranty. If Tesla doesn't start offering module replacements, others will.

I don't know anything about the Volt, but have heard that the Bolt and Leaf both have air-cooled batteries and that has been a big factor in those battery failures. Is the Volt also air-cooled?

Volt is liquid cooled. Uses two separate cooling systems. One for the engine and the other for the electronics module / battery.

 

[PaulS]

Re: business taxes. They absolutely are passed on to the business's customers, every penny. Businesses spend billions and billions on planning and strategies to deal with business taxes. If you haven't lived it you wouldn't understand it.

 

[MIFlyer]

I am enjoying this thread, but it really amazes me how we can rehash the same things over and over and over and over . . .

Yes, if you take an EV on a road trip you have to be aware and willing to spend time at a super charger. It is a trade off. For some, it is a good trade. Ed Fred it isn't.
Fortunately, at this time we still have a choice. Maybe in a few years the choice will be taken away but by then, hopefully the tradeoff will be minimized.

I can't wait to get an EV. But I will still fly the Bonanza when I can if the EV will be inconvenient. But even THAT is a trade off. I have to hassle with transportation at the other end. But its a trade off I don't mind.

I just wished we lived in a world where we could afford to own more than one vehicle...

I should stop now, but won't.

In our house, we have two (going up) cars
1. Her BMW i3 - 70 mile electric range
Cons - 70 mile range
Cons - small
If we took this on vacation, once per year, to say, Bend, OR for the week, we would take 10 hours and have to spend 2 1/2 hours at charging stations. We'd have to stop, pull in, plug in 7 times to make it. What a POS! Why would anyone make us own this car. JERKS!
Also, I wouldn't nearly be able to fit the bikes and luggage in it. this car must suck!

2. My F350 crew cab
We could do this trip with no stops in 5:45 minutes!
We have TONS of room for bikes, luggage, and even an extra seat if grandma wants to come
We have 4WD if we hit some snow.
This must be the ideal car for everything.
Hell, if I find another old Scout to buy, I can throw the trailer behind it and bring it home, and hardly notice it on 350 mile trip.

BUT>>>>>

We don't always go on vacations.
My wife works 10 miles away from our home, and parks in a downtown underground parking lot. Let's see how the cars work for that...

New mission: go to work 250x per year
1. i3
Car knows her departure time and heats/cools before time to leave while plugged in
Depart house fully charged
Drive 15 minutes to the office
Easily put your 100" wheelbase, short car in ANY parking spot they've painted
Come home, and after running to errands, kids activities, plug into the free, level one charger (normal 120V outlet) overnight.
Cost - about $20/month in electricity. No infrastructure needed (no new plugs/chargers/etc, we just use the normal outlet)

2. F350
Now we're talking! Leave the driveway (can't fit in my home's garage). It'll warm up about the time we get to her office building
what's this, why is the yellow pipe hitting the top of my car. hmm says "6'6" clearance". OK, I'm sure the 4 cars behind me won't mind me throwing it in reverse so I can back out.
OK, so we're creeping around the block looking for street parking LOL or an open air parking garage. VIOLA!! ONly 6 blocks away there is one. Her office only pays for parking in her building, so she'll have to eat the $40 day charge to park there, times 22 days per month. No worries.
Walks 5 blocks past the gang bangers and crazed homeless crapping and doing drugs on street. She only get's chased ONCE Today!!!
Past the same gauntlet ont he way home and she's set!

I don't know why Delta doesn't fly ONLY Bonanzas, we know they're hte best plane, just like we know that electric cars aren't the best choice for ANYONE.

 

[PaulS]

I'm thinking the Tesla model y long range is the best choice for me. 15 minutes at a supercharger = 165 more miles, I'm fine with that, when on a long trip, a gas stop is at least 20 minutes between the restroom, snacks and stretching my legs.

 

[WannFly]

I am a die hard big cubic inch guy from long ways back. I still prefer carburetors and distributors over computer controlled engines. Yet I am watching and trying to learn about electric cars. For me, while on a road trip pulling into a charging station for 30 or so minutes would be a waste of time because I bring my own meals and pee on the side of the road. Yes, so will my wife.

When on long road trips I will drive 600+ miles a day and right now that means one gas stop. 5 minutes and back on the road. While more and more charging stations are opening here in the southwest, finding one that is operating can still be a problem. I am moving to Montana and looks like there are not many charging stations close to where I want to live right now.

After a exhaustive and lengthy 5 second search on Google, I find only 2 charging stations here in Gallup. I know there are more in the area and at Walmart and because my friend the car dealership owner was forced to put one in his dealership at his cost. I can't print what he says about it... But those 2 did not show up on my search. Hopefully the intelligent EVs will know where a charging station is.

One question I have, I read about some folks don't like the one pedal for going and stopping. How does that one pedal thing work.??

I am confidant all this will change for the better, and more so that someday an electric vehicle will meet my mission. When all that comes together I will get more interested in owning one. But my wife will have to like it because she will probably be the one to be driving it.

In Jeep world it’s called max regen, essentially when you let go of the gas paddle, it will apply regenerative braking (like a golf cart) to slow the vehicle down as well as (for the Jeep anyway) it will use that energy to charge the big arse battery a little. It’s not a complete EV per day, it’s a plug in EV, Jeep 4Xe…. I ordered one

 

[FastEddieB]

IIt’s not a complete EV per day, it’s a plug in EV, Jeep 4Xe…. I ordered one

I just looked it up, and it seems like a cool vehicle. The price seems high, but all new Jeeps today are all pretty pricey.

The one spec that seems chintzy is the “Up to 21 miles” of EV range. Depending on where you live and your use case, that 21 miles would get used up pretty quickly. Of course, it doesn’t turn into a pumpkin then, you still get the benefits of a hybrid, and that gas engine should give pretty sprightly performance.

Still, I wish our Clarity got more than the 47 nominal miles Honda advertises. 75 would cover a much larger radius of EV range, and I’d kill for 100 miles - we’d basically only need gas on highway trips.

As an aside, we bought a cheap OBD2 dongle which lets us see our battery capacity. At 3 years and 57,000 miles our Clarity has dropped from 55 Ah to 46.62 Ah, and we can see that rough percentage drop in our EV range. Depending on temp and driving conditions we used to routinely see 50 miles of EV range. Now we’re lucky to top 45. Basic physics, but best to remember battery degradation is not just hypothetical.

 

[Bill]

I'm thinking the Tesla model y long range is the best choice for me. 15 minutes at a supercharger = 165 more miles, I'm fine with that, when on a long trip, a gas stop is at least 20 minutes between the restroom, snacks and stretching my legs.

Makes sense, but we'll need a whole lot more chargers than we do present gas pumps. A gas pump can give a car 300mi+ of range in 5min. The supercharger 165mi in 15min. There's gonna be long lines at those chargers as EVs become more widespread, unless a whole hell of a lot of chargers are installed.

 

[Ted]

I just wished we lived in a world where we could afford to own more than one vehicle...

I should stop now, but won't.

In our house, we have two (going up) cars
1. Her BMW i3 - 70 mile electric range
Cons - 70 mile range
Cons - small
If we took this on vacation, once per year, to say, Bend, OR for the week, we would take 10 hours and have to spend 2 1/2 hours at charging stations. We'd have to stop, pull in, plug in 7 times to make it. What a POS! Why would anyone make us own this car. JERKS!
Also, I wouldn't nearly be able to fit the bikes and luggage in it. this car must suck!

2. My F350 crew cab
We could do this trip with no stops in 5:45 minutes!
We have TONS of room for bikes, luggage, and even an extra seat if grandma wants to come
We have 4WD if we hit some snow.
This must be the ideal car for everything.
Hell, if I find another old Scout to buy, I can throw the trailer behind it and bring it home, and hardly notice it on 350 mile trip.

BUT>>>>>

We don't always go on vacations.
My wife works 10 miles away from our home, and parks in a downtown underground parking lot. Let's see how the cars work for that...

New mission: go to work 250x per year
1. i3
Car knows her departure time and heats/cools before time to leave while plugged in
Depart house fully charged
Drive 15 minutes to the office
Easily put your 100" wheelbase, short car in ANY parking spot they've painted
Come home, and after running to errands, kids activities, plug into the free, level one charger (normal 120V outlet) overnight.
Cost - about $20/month in electricity. No infrastructure needed (no new plugs/chargers/etc, we just use the normal outlet)

2. F350
Now we're talking! Leave the driveway (can't fit in my home's garage). It'll warm up about the time we get to her office building
what's this, why is the yellow pipe hitting the top of my car. hmm says "6'6" clearance". OK, I'm sure the 4 cars behind me won't mind me throwing it in reverse so I can back out.
OK, so we're creeping around the block looking for street parking LOL or an open air parking garage. VIOLA!! ONly 6 blocks away there is one. Her office only pays for parking in her building, so she'll have to eat the $40 day charge to park there, times 22 days per month. No worries.
Walks 5 blocks past the gang bangers and crazed homeless crapping and doing drugs on street. She only get's chased ONCE Today!!!
Past the same gauntlet ont he way home and she's set!

I don't know why Delta doesn't fly ONLY Bonanzas, we know they're hte best plane, just like we know that electric cars aren't the best choice for ANYONE.

That summarizes it really well. One of the "rules" in our household is that vehicles shouldn't overlap too much. Obviously they all get you from A to B, but they should all have personalities that are different. Yesterday I had to run a bunch of errands, took the XKR. It's easy to park, fun and comfortable. I probably would've taken the Cobra if it was running, although I needed trunk space and good air conditioning was nice to have. But if you look at them, they're all a bit different.

Mercedes GL550: Good kid hauler/grocery getter. Holds all of us, fits into parking lots easily. Wife loves driving it, and it's fast enough that I can tolerate it.

Jaguar XKR: Grand touring car, fun for road trips with 1 or 2 of us, doesn't hold much but is a very nice driver.

Ram: Giant truck. 'nuff said.

Land Rover Discovery: Great toad to tow behind the RV (when the wheels don't fall off), great off-road.

RV: It's the bus.

Harleys: Ok, these were pretty similar, but they're "his and hers"

Triumph Daytona 675: Sport bike. It's fast.

Moto Guzzi V7 Racer: It's not fast. But it has soul.

Cobra: Really fast, pure car. Can't wait to drive it.

RX-7: Racecar. Can't wait to drive it, too.

 

[PaulS]

That summarizes it really well. One of the "rules" in our household is that vehicles shouldn't overlap too much. Obviously they all get you from A to B, but they should all have personalities that are different. Yesterday I had to run a bunch of errands, took the XKR. It's easy to park, fun and comfortable. I probably would've taken the Cobra if it was running, although I needed trunk space and good air conditioning was nice to have. But if you look at them, they're all a bit different.

Mercedes GL550: Good kid hauler/grocery getter. Holds all of us, fits into parking lots easily. Wife loves driving it, and it's fast enough that I can tolerate it.

Jaguar XKR: Grand touring car, fun for road trips with 1 or 2 of us, doesn't hold much but is a very nice driver.

Ram: Giant truck. 'nuff said.

Land Rover Discovery: Great toad to tow behind the RV (when the wheels don't fall off), great off-road.

RV: It's the bus.

Harleys: Ok, these were pretty similar, but they're "his and hers"

Triumph Daytona 675: Sport bike. It's fast.

Moto Guzzi V7 Racer: It's not fast. But it has soul.

Cobra: Really fast, pure car. Can't wait to drive it.

RX-7: Racecar. Can't wait to drive it, too.

Too much maintenance Ted, I'm down to two cars. Toys are another matter.

 

[Wingsofglass]

Then free supercharging went away

Does that mean I can no longer charge my 2014 Model S for free? I'm the original owner. That would **** me off as a matter of honor. In 90,000 miles I have used a supercharger exactly twice. Why? Because EVs are not meant to be taken on road trips unless the trip is the mission and not the destination. It's kind of like taking your bug smasher on a XC from New York to California. Yeah you can do it. But flying commercial will be much faster and less expensive.

If you only own one car and road trip rarely sure an EV will work. Over the course of year a few hours extra on a road trip will not matter and will be more than made up by never going to a gas station the rest of the year. If you road trip on a regular basis, an EV is not for you. Somewhere in between a rental car plus an EV might be a good fit.

 

[Ted]

Too much maintenance Ted, I'm down to two cars. Toys are another matter.

I overall agree with you. At one point after college I had 6 cars (I think 6?). Let's see, '92 Town Car, '97 Range Rover 4.6HSE, '95 Suburban K2500, '92 Jaguar XJS, '92 Jeep Wrangler, I think there was another one in there. Anyway, was always working on them. Of course they were also all older and really not in the best condition other than the XJS and so it was essentially constant restoration on vehicles that, frankly, didn't deserve it. These days I have a new policy of only buying nicer cars.

The reality for us is that the Mercedes and the Ram are the true vehicles. Everything else is a toy. I keep the Ram (almost) stock, and the Mercedes completely stock. The XKR is also 100% stock, and I expect it will stay that way. It's more of my wife's toy and she likes it the way it is. Her Harley is customized somewhat, but mechanically stock. And her Triumph is also stock. I guess the moral is, my wife likes her vehicles... stock.

While my Ram is mostly stock it does have a few minor changes. The Cobra is, of course, completely custom. The Land Rover is a practical vehicle but also something of a toy, hence it getting the engine and transmission swap. And really the biggest reason I'm doing that is that the stock engine and transmission on it are such junk. My Harley is, of course, not stock (still loving that big bore upgrade) and my Guzzi is "mostly" stock, other than the straight pipes.

The RV is very much not stock, but aside from being old it's just a very bad design, so lots of improvements to be made.

 

[SCCutler]

...

Corporate tax rates are lower than they have been since before 1940... Corporations are only taxed on profits, not revenue... So higher corporate taxes incentivizes reinvestment into the business, paying employees more, etc because those increased expenses aren't taxed. But you know this... And I'm not going to answer any further replies because that's not what this thread is about.

...

Kent, you dropped the turd in the punchbowl, and I know you understand math.

Tax on corporate profits is a tax on the shareholders, and that means it's double taxation, full stop (because, y'know, shareholders, just like Soylent Green, is people). There's a solid argument (and damned solid one) that corporate profits oughtn't be taxed at all - that is what would promote reinvestment, and new start-ups. Of course, at the bottom line, the more money government takes, and the more government does (outside of defending the borders, protecting human rights and carrying the mail), the worse off we all (save and except those sucking at the teat) ultimately are. Money in private hands will always generate greater prosperity than that same money in the hands of the government. It's like gravity.

It's easy to just blindly aim the tax cannon, and with the increasing penchant for unlimited printing and spending by those in Capitol City, those of us in the Districts are expected to just work, pay, and hope. It cannot work, long term.

You know how much I love you Kent (very much like a brother), but you're too young to remember the late 70s / early 80s. Inflation over 9%, mortgage rates over 17%. Wasn't pretty.

 

[JOhnH]

Makes sense, but we'll need a whole lot more chargers than we do present gas pumps. A gas pump can give a car 300mi+ of range in 5min. The supercharger 165mi in 15min. There's gonna be long lines at those chargers as EVs become more widespread, unless a whole hell of a lot of chargers are installed.

I disagree about needing more charging stations than gas pumps. With ICE cars everyone is going to the pump frequently. With EVs, visits to the charging station will be rare events.

 

[FastEddieB]

I disagree about needing more charging stations than gas pumps. With ICE cars everyone is going to the pump frequently. With EVs, visits to the charging station will be rare events.

Also, I think most folks will do the vast majority of their charging overnight at home. Certainly not practical for all at the present time - think apartment dwellers and those using street parking in big cities - but even those could be equipped with charging options as the switch to EV’s continues.

 

[Velocity173]

 

[Bill]

Any low volume vehicle is going to have absurd parts/repair prices.

 

[WannFly]

I just looked it up, and it seems like a cool vehicle. The price seems high, but all new Jeeps today are all pretty pricey.

The one spec that seems chintzy is the “Up to 21 miles” of EV range. Depending on where you live and your use case, that 21 miles would get used up pretty quickly. Of course, it doesn’t turn into a pumpkin then, you still get the benefits of a hybrid, and that gas engine should give pretty sprightly performance.

Still, I wish our Clarity got more than the 47 nominal miles Honda advertises. 75 would cover a much larger radius of EV range, and I’d kill for 100 miles - we’d basically only need gas on highway trips.

As an aside, we bought a cheap OBD2 dongle which lets us see our battery capacity. At 3 years and 57,000 miles our Clarity has dropped from 55 Ah to 46.62 Ah, and we can see that rough percentage drop in our EV range. Depending on temp and driving conditions we used to routinely see 50 miles of EV range. Now we’re lucky to top 45. Basic physics, but best to remember battery degradation is not just hypothetical.

Yeah that 21 or 25 miles won’t make much difference in my life. I am buying it for the insane HP and torque that you can only get in a 392 version (read insanely more money) and of course the $7500 tax credit from the feds. I got it at 13% below MSRP which is a pretty awesome right now. It is still a very expensive piece of toy

 

[FastEddieB]

Yeah that 21 or 25 miles won’t make much difference in my life. I am buying it for the insane HP and torque that you can only get in a 392 version (read insanely more money) and of course the $7500 tax credit from the feds. I got it at 13% below MSRP which is a pretty awesome right now. It is still a very expensive piece of toy

Got it!

You seem to be well informed, but just as a reminder, make sure you have at least a $7,500 tax liability for the year you take delivery. In my case that’s rare. Some have moved IRA funds from a conventional to a Roth IRA to get the needed income to get that tax liability. We had unusually large capital gains in 2018, so we got the full $7,500 credit on the purchase of our Clarity.

 

[weilke]

I disagree about needing more charging stations than gas pumps. With ICE cars everyone is going to the pump frequently. With EVs, visits to the charging station will be rare events.

Actually, with a ICE you go to the pump quite infrequently, and then its a brief stop. My old commuter car had a range of 700 miles, a weekly stop to wash the bugs off the windshield and fill up at the diesel pump. The current commuter goes about 450miles before it needs a pit-stop.

We'll need more EV charging stations once we start seeing lines at the existing ones. So far, most of them are rarely used. The only time I see more than one used at the same time is at the rest stops along I95 where the Tesla drivers can sip their $6 cups of Starbucks while they 'save money' by supercharging their car.

 

[wayne]

You don't need an hour to charge, either.

For the fastest overall trip time the strategy is to have more frequent, short charging session; not fewer, longer charges. Instead of "topping off" at each stop you charge only enough to get to the next stop.

The battery charges fastest at low to mid charge states. Once you get into the 75%+ state-of-charge the charge rate tapers off. For road trips you want the longer-range option car, not because you're going to drive 300+ miles between stops; but, so that you don't have to charge to a higher state-of-charge at each stop as doing so would increase your overall trip time. You'll end up charging for 15 to 25 minutes at many of the stops, not an hour. This is a bit of a trade-off for the daily convenience of never having to stop for gas when you aren't on a road trip.

A trip in an EV will take longer, but maybe not as much longer as you think. You can run sample trips, and play around with the different options, at www.ABetterRoutePlanner.com.

You lost me on that. I get that it charges faster at a lower state-of-charge. I don't get how multiple stops will be faster, although at some point putting a little more doesn't help much. Each time you pull of the interstate you lose a bunch of time. Even that 2 minute gas fuel-up takes 10-15 minutes, even with the gas station near the interstate. Just like in flying, the fastest plane is often the one that doesn't need a fuel stop. Looking at the data from Better Route Planning I can see where it might be close for two short stops versus one long stop for the Atlanta-Lexington trip (see below), but not the three it shows. The extra time just for stopping is noticeable overhead. Just pulling of the interstate, driving to a charging station, getting out of the car and then turning around and going back would chew up 10 minutes of driving time, if not more. That's with no actually charging. That Better Route Planner is not counting the overhead is not good from a planning perspective. So I now see the gist of your point, but more stops is still more time, just maybe not as much "more time".

More shorter charge-ups being faster than fewer longer charge-ups will be a paradigm shift for how people view a "fill-up" on a trip. I think if interstate stops/exits shift to have multiple food places along with charging stations it will make that more pleasant.

I get that if you have 250 miles of range, but need to travel 350 miles it pays to start fully charged, then charge up just enough to get to your destination (plus a buffer) and then charge up more once you are there. No need to "fill up" when you don't need the range and it takes more time, especially so at the full end of the battery.

I entered a drive in the Better Route Planner. Yikes! From Atlanta to Lexington (one of our kids lives there). It wants 3 stops for a vehicle with ~250 mile range (Kiro Niro EV). Worse is that all it shows for the extra time is the charging time. Nothing about the time to get off the interstate, drive to the charger, plug-in, unplug, drive back to the interstate. That 7 hour drive estimate that it shows will be more like 7:45 or more with that overhead. It's a 6 hour drive. Oddly the planner only had the car start with 90% charge. Oh yuck, all of those charging stations are in Walmart Superstore parking lots, so anything to eat is often a good walk away in areas that generally don't have many pedestrians. I wonder how long it will take for a shift in restaurants at interstate stops to share a parking lot with a bunch of charging stations. Then people could stop, charge and eat all in one spot. And maybe a small dog park area for pets.

The distance / time is why I don't drive for this trip, even with an ICE car. We fly there. I've driven it twice. Once to move her to college (I moved her out at the end of that year in a Baron 58 ) and then once when we couldn't get a plane; which turned into a 7:15 drive due to accidents around construction. Ugh. My wife has driven up a couple of times without me and complains about the drive time. Our daughter, her two dogs and a friend visited us over the Labor Day weekend, which has worse than normal traffic, so I flew up and got them to help shorten their travel time; plus I got to fly.

Back when I was a kid we drove on all of our vacations; this was pre-airline deregulation, so the flying costs were far too high. The drives were so long we would stop along the way and spend the night in a hotel, then get up the next morning and drive more to get to our destination. I can't even imagine what that would be like with an EV and all the extra stops for recharging, and other than lunch and the hotel stop they would all be longer. We don't travel like that any more. On long trips we fly.

Like finding the right plane for your mission, one needs to understand what one's driving needs are and the capabilities of the cars one is looking at. My daughter in Lexington has horses, so she has a truck with good towing capability. I have so little need for a truck that I rent one when I need it; which is getting more and more rare for me. I'm am very seriously planning on buying an EV for my next car. Current plan is a Kia Niro EV; which is why I plugged that into the Better Route Planner. I doubt I'd ever drive it to Lexington though. I would rarely ever drive it out of the greater Atlanta metro area. My driving needs are almost entirely local and even then I don't go far in a day typically. My long local drive is to visit my parents on the south side of Atlanta; driving there and back, plus out to dinner/lunch is ~80-90 miles round trip. That's about as far as I go normally in a day. That fits in perfectly with an EV.

Pre-COVID I drove to the office daily. That's about 15 miles each way for me; it was 10 miles each way before we downsized. There is a shorter route, but it's not as quick. Now we're working 100% remote, and even when we do "go back to the office" I will not be in the office daily. I doubt I would even charge up the car every night.

I don't need a super long range on an EV car. For long trips it just needs to get me to the small airport for when I fly or Hartsfield for when we go commercial; oddly enough they are about the same distance from home, a little under 20 miles. Fortunately for me, being able to do long road trips is not part of what I look for in a car. I'd much rather fly. So, any hassles with charging time on a trip, real or perceived, isn't an issue for me.

 

[MIFlyer]

I wrestle with the number of vehicles and the amount of MX they need. To share one experience point, I would say that our electric car is a lot less MX than our other cars.

Here 2015 i3 seems to act a little like any 6 year old german car. It needs about 1-2 AMU repair about 1x per year. I also just had to put tires on it.
Otherwise though, it's great, because I don't do brakes, oil changes, transmission fluid, coolant, yadda, yadda

My F350 gets the oil change 2x per year (every 5k), fuel filter 1x per year (10k) and seems to have a couple of fiddly things a year that are cheaper, but fiddlier (ie, the cruise stopped working, AGAIN, so I have to replace the $20 brake fluid pressure sending unit again). I'm also getting close to needing to do diff, transmission, xfer case fluids again (every 30k), so that will take a hunk out of a Saturday.

I also have to plan fueling (whereas the electric car is always "full" because we leave it plugged in at home).

I do think we'll actually trade her i3 into a Tesla or an electric small SUV or the VW electric bus so that we still have most of the advantages of a small electric car, but gain a little more room, a good bit more range, while still keeping the convenience of electric. A similar journey to the OP, though our missions are almost the opposite. I think the sweet spot is when cars have a solid 300 mile electric range, it really does work for all but the long road trip vacations, and in those cases, I'm flying myself anyway.

I overall agree with you. At one point after college I had 6 cars (I think 6?). Let's see, '92 Town Car, '97 Range Rover 4.6HSE, '95 Suburban K2500, '92 Jaguar XJS, '92 Jeep Wrangler, I think there was another one in there. Anyway, was always working on them. Of course they were also all older and really not in the best condition other than the XJS and so it was essentially constant restoration on vehicles that, frankly, didn't deserve it. These days I have a new policy of only buying nicer cars.

The reality for us is that the Mercedes and the Ram are the true vehicles. Everything else is a toy. I keep the Ram (almost) stock, and the Mercedes completely stock. The XKR is also 100% stock, and I expect it will stay that way. It's more of my wife's toy and she likes it the way it is. Her Harley is customized somewhat, but mechanically stock. And her Triumph is also stock. I guess the moral is, my wife likes her vehicles... stock.

While my Ram is mostly stock it does have a few minor changes. The Cobra is, of course, completely custom. The Land Rover is a practical vehicle but also something of a toy, hence it getting the engine and transmission swap. And really the biggest reason I'm doing that is that the stock engine and transmission on it are such junk. My Harley is, of course, not stock (still loving that big bore upgrade) and my Guzzi is "mostly" stock, other than the straight pipes.

The RV is very much not stock, but aside from being old it's just a very bad design, so lots of improvements to be made.

Yes, I do wrestle with "too much to keep up" vs

 

[Larry in TN]

More shorter charge-ups being faster than fewer longer charge-ups will be a paradigm shift for how people view a "fill-up" on a trip. I think if interstate stops/exits shift to have multiple food places along with charging stations it will make that more pleasant.

It's just like flight planning. Fuel burn to destination plus reserve. Pilots adjust to that just fine. So can drivers.

I don't know much about the Kia but it would use a CCS charger. Right now, the Electrify America (EA) network has the most CCS chargers in the US and they are frequently in Walmart parking lots. They also have relatively few chargers per location. That's not ideal, but it will improve. The development of the EA US network was one of the terms in the VW Diesel-gate settlement.

The Supercharger (SC) network is a huge advantage for Tesla. They are more stations and the network averages more chargers per station. Tesla continues to aggressively expand the SC network. Many SC stations have restaurants and shops nearby.

Each brand's navigation software is different, but they generally provide information about nearby amenities from the navigation display. The Tesla does this very well. The Kia may do just as well. If not, an app such as PlugShare will fill in any gaps that the car's system leaves. It also includes user "reviews" of the charging station which will mention things like availability of nearby amenities.

I entered a drive in the Better Route Planner. Yikes! From Atlanta to Lexington (one of our kids lives there). It wants 3 stops for a vehicle with ~250 mile range (Kiro Niro EV)

250 range is okay for road trips but I specifically bought the long-range (353mi EPA range) Model 3 for just that reason.

I ran a trip from Atlanta, GA (it started from downtown) to Lexington (I picked Joe Bologna's because I want a garlic stick). I also specified leaving home at 100% charge, not the 90% default. With my Model 3 LR, the plan was a total driving time of 6h20 with only one charging stop (Knoxville SC) for a 25m charge. That's how the extra 100 miles of EPA range affects the trip.

The plan includes the overhead time to exit/enter the freeway and drive to the charger. With the Tesla, it takes about 15 seconds to initiate the charge as the payment process is automatic. The estimated charging fee is $6.27. At home, it costs me about $7.85 to charge my battery from 10% to 100% (to restore to the departure SOC) so the total energy cost of the trip would be about $14.12.

As I said, the SC network is currently a huge advantage for Tesla but the other networks will catch up. It does show the potential that the other brands and networks will soon be able to match, or exceed.

I don't need a super long range on an EV car. For long trips it just needs to get me to the small airport for when I fly or Hartsfield for when we go commercial; oddly enough they are about the same distance from home, a little under 20 miles.

Then none of your complaints actually matter to you in your situation?

If you're not going to take road trips, a ~250mi range EV is plenty--more than plenty. It's not ideal for road trips, so maybe basing an argument against EVs for road trips on a 250mi car isn't the best comparison.

 

[PaulS]

So after reading through most of the comments here I sit and wonder what it was like when cars first hit the market.....

Guy 1: "Hey, I just put an order in for one of those new travel machines, I think they call it an automobile.

Guy 2: " Hmmm, what the heck did you do that for?"

Guy 3: " Don't those things need gasoline to run, where are you going to get that?"

Guy 1: " Yup, they need gasoline to run, the hardware store in town just installed a pump. The machine holds 10 gallons and I can go 150 miles on a tank. That's plenty far for me."

Guy 2: " I don't understand that new fangled technology"

Guy 3: " No way I'm getting roped into having to go to town just to buy that gasoline stuff. I got old Nellie here, my mule, she goes anywhere I want her to go, most of the time I can just turn her out to pasture, if I'm travelling there is hay available everywhere. I'm not going to deal with having to find gasoline, that's nuts, that'll never catch on."

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Did you miss my point, or are you ignoring it? The time to refuel an ICE car is so short you don't have time to do anything else, at least not anything meaningful. It's just too fast.

I think you're missing my point as well... That you have to spend that time standing next to your car, and THEN go get your food and pee...

But we're really looking at the 10% rather than the 90%. 90% of the time you'll charge at home and it takes very close to zero time to fuel the EV. We were down to one gas car for a couple weeks between ditching the Bolt and picking up the Tesla, and it is freaking ANNOYING to have to make an extra stop at a gas station and spend five minutes fueling it up! So even if I have to take an extra 10 minutes on road trip stops (above what it would have taken to gas up/pee/grab food), the convenience the rest of the year more than makes up for it, to me. If you're going on 1,000 mile road trips every other week, that's one thing, and an EV might be less convenient - But that's not what most people do.

If there was a supercharger at the fast food restaurant you could get some charge while we're eating, but we're not in there long.

Tesla is generally positioning the Superchargers at places where there are good options for travel food. They also have some huge Supercharger stops in California where Tesla is doing kind of a proof-of-concept of what future larger charging facilities might be like, with solar panels shading the parking spots and providing some of the juice, and a facility with a lounge, coffee served by a barista, snacks, etc... It's kind of like the combination of a coffee house, a convenience store, and an Apple store.

One trip we made last year would have been annoying in an EV. We drove from Atlanta to Columbia to help our daughter move out from college. It was a little over 450 miles (Interstate) round trip. We drove over, loaded our car, hers was mostly loaded when we got there, turned around and drove home. I don't remember if we ate at her place or on the way back. There's no supercharger at the house she was renting. Heck, there wasn't even a 220 outlet. So, we couldn't charge while we loaded the car. At that distance we had to refuel the car, but with an ICE car that's less than 5 min, less than 10 min if we also grab snacks/drinks. This is a very rare case for us, even more so going forward as that was our youngest child and she graduated last year.

Yup... That kind of trip is less convenient, you just trade the extra convenience you get the rest of the time. On that sort of trip, I'd plan to stop 2/3 of the way there, charge up, go, load up, stop 1/3 of the way back, and that's it... If you've got the range for that. Certainly there will be more places to charge moving forward.

This is the problem I have with EVs. When your warranty is up, you’re in uncharted waters as to how much a replacement battery will cost. Knowing how bad Tesla customer service is, it’ll be a long time to get that $22K batt replaced. And strangely enough, it seems like all these batts are failing just after the 8 year warranty. I know several on the Volt FB page that are getting charged $10-12K for an out of warranty battery replacement. Basically turns the car to junk because that’s more than it’s worth. Even a refurb batt will run $5-6K for a Volt.

Part of the reason the refurb batteries are expensive is that there are VERY few of them... And that's because battery failure is exceedingly rare, with some notable exceptions (early Nissan Leafs did NOT do well in hot climates, for example).

Only the very earliest Teslas are even out of warranty yet, and they use a different battery than Tesla is producing today... And battery costs are going down quickly.

My car uses a battery that should last 750,000 miles (at which point it would have 80% of the capacity it had when new).

I haven't had a chance to try this yet. How reliable is it? Are the chargers usually available or do they get taken early in the afternoon/evening?

Depends on the hotel and the location, and how many EVs they've got... It's probably a good idea to call ahead and let them know you'll need it. Hopefully they'll have a way of actually reserving them eventually, and hopefully management is paying attention to how much they get used.

The Model 3 LR battery warranty is 8rys/120,000mi. The design-life of the battery is 500,000mi. The upcoming 4680 batteries as expect to have a design life of 1,000,000mi. The batteries are preforming well in the very high mileage cars. This is likely due to the advanced battery management and temperature control in the Teslas.

This. Tesloop has a few cars with over 400,000 miles on them. Good battery management is key - And that's why I feel most comfortable with the Tesla, as they have been making fully electric vehicles longer than anyone else and have learned a thing or two along the way and made improvements.

I don't know anything about the Volt, but have heard that the Bolt and Leaf both have air-cooled batteries and that has been a big factor in those battery failures. Is the Volt also air-cooled?

Leaf is air-cooled. Bolt and Volt are liquid-cooled. And it wasn't the battery that died on my Volt, it was the engine!

In our house, we have two (going up) cars
1. Her BMW i3 - 70 mile electric range
Cons - 70 mile range
Cons - small
If we took this on vacation, once per year, to say, Bend, OR for the week, we would take 10 hours and have to spend 2 1/2 hours at charging stations. We'd have to stop, pull in, plug in 7 times to make it. What a POS! Why would anyone make us own this car. JERKS!
Also, I wouldn't nearly be able to fit the bikes and luggage in it. this car must suck!

Ah, but you missed one detail, and it's something BMW did that was really smart... But not very well publicized.

If you buy an i3, you are entitled to free rental of an ICE-based BMW for two weeks per year for road trips. That gets rid of any need for long range or even fast charging for most people.

Car knows her departure time and heats/cools before time to leave while plugged in

One of my favorite features of EVs... Warming them up using power from the house during the cold of winter! It's nice to get into a car that's already toasty before you even open the garage door.

The one spec that seems chintzy is the “Up to 21 miles” of EV range. Depending on where you live and your use case, that 21 miles would get used up pretty quickly. Of course, it doesn’t turn into a pumpkin then, you still get the benefits of a hybrid, and that gas engine should give pretty sprightly performance.

Still, I wish our Clarity got more than the 47 nominal miles Honda advertises. 75 would cover a much larger radius of EV range, and I’d kill for 100 miles - we’d basically only need gas on highway trips.

This is part of why I went to full EVs from plug-in hybrids. I really prefer electric driving, and it drove me nuts when the engine would kick in... But I drive too far for a PHEV to stay electric any more (except an i3 REx, maybe).

The initial design of the Chevy Volt was go to 35 miles on electricity, because that covered the daily commute for 90% of Americans. A smart design goal.

Unfortunately, it seems like most PHEVs fall short of that.

Basic physics, but best to remember battery degradation is not just hypothetical.

Yep - If you need to go 100 miles, best not buy a 105-mile EV!

Also, I can see a market for used car dealers that are EV-specific, who know how to measure degradation, know how each model's battery degrades over time, and can give real-world range numbers for various use cases. Most car dealers have no clue how to sell an EV, new or used.

Makes sense, but we'll need a whole lot more chargers than we do present gas pumps. A gas pump can give a car 300mi+ of range in 5min. The supercharger 165mi in 15min. There's gonna be long lines at those chargers as EVs become more widespread, unless a whole hell of a lot of chargers are installed.

True for "chargers" but not true for "public fast chargers" that are analogous to gas stations. 80-90% of the time people will be charging at home. In 50 years, there will be less land area taken up by car fueling stations of all kinds than there is taken today by gas stations.

Does that mean I can no longer charge my 2014 Model S for free? I'm the original owner. That would **** me off as a matter of honor.

No. Sorry, I worded that poorly. They stopped including supercharging free for the life of the car in mid 2016. Those cars that had free supercharging will always have free supercharging.

Actually, with a ICE you go to the pump quite infrequently, and then its a brief stop. My old commuter car had a range of 700 miles, a weekly stop to wash the bugs off the windshield and fill up at the diesel pump. The current commuter goes about 450miles before it needs a pit-stop.

We'll need more EV charging stations once we start seeing lines at the existing ones. So far, most of them are rarely used. The only time I see more than one used at the same time is at the rest stops along I95 where the Tesla drivers can sip their $6 cups of Starbucks while they 'save money' by supercharging their car.

Infrequently? We have to gas up my wife's car maybe every 4-5 days. We do drive more miles than average Americans, but I put nearly 35,000 miles on the Bolt in a year and a half and I don't think I ever fast charged it. The i3 I did fast charge sometimes, but only because it had a low-100-mile range (120ish maybe?) and I drove it to a client that was 90 miles away about once a week. I wouldn't need to do that with either the Bolt or the Tesla.

Having a full tank when you leave the house every day is WAY more convenient than gas 90% of the time... And because of that, people aren't likely to be lining up at fast charging stations.

 

[MIFlyer]

Whoa! I had no idea on the Flexible Mobility Program. That would kick butt to take a new BMW on road trips. I need to find out if either of the local dealers would do it for us, since we didn't buy from them (bought from a third party, but we get service done at one of the dealers).