Tesla Model 3 - Finally.

[flyingcheesehead]

I gave the details in the Bolt thread, but I recently ditched my Chevy Bolt and am finally getting a Tesla.

I've been following Tesla since early 2015, when I still owned my first plug-in vehicle, a Ford Fusion Energi plug-in hybrid, and when they introduced the Model 3 in 2016, I was one of the people who waited in line to put down a reservation. In the meantime, I've had a parade of plug-ins:

2014-2017: Ford Fusion Energi plug-in hybrid. Leased kind of on a whim, they were running a special that made this one cheaper to get into than an equivalent non-plug-in at the time. I have a degree in EE and tech like this interested me, so what the heck. And it was a really good car. Enjoyed it, went over the lease miles, turned it back in still a happy customer but for the fact that Ford had gone essentially nowhere in their electrification efforts and I had found that I really liked electric driving (and got mad when the engine kicked in).
2017-2018: BMW i3 (94Ah BEV version). Fully electric. Lease takeover from a friend of a friend. This thing was a steal and really fun to drive, even if it was butt ugly. I'd have kept it longer if I could have.
2018-2020: 2013 Chevy Volt. Bought it to replace the i3, was trying to be cheap. Engine blew a head gasket and ate itself. Not worth fixing, to me, and by this point I had a much longer commute and wanted more electric range.
2020-2021: Chevy Bolt. Bought new. With the long commute it was practically free to purchase, payments were less than I'd have been spending on gas and maintenance otherwise. Recalled. Buhbye.

In any case, I'd wanted a Model 3 for a long time, but even after I was invited to configure, I kept passing it up. It was supposed to be a $35K car, and they said they expected the average optioned price to be $42K. In reality, I kept coming up with a $60K car because I got a bit trigger happy in the configurator, making my dream car, yet making it further away.

When the earlier Bolts were recalled and people were talking about GM buying them back, it got me to thinking. I did not expect a recall of the newer ones (none had burned yet at that point) but I realized that for the mission I was using the Bolt for, I didn't need the long range one, and I could live without AWD and the full self driving package and still have a really nice car that I'd be happier with than the Bolt.

When my Bolt did get recalled unexpectedly last month, I looked at many options. The long commute still favors fully electric, but about half the electric cars out there right now are using pouch cells from LG, which are what caused the Bolt recall. For the rest - Well, it's a really REALLY bad time to buy a car. With all of the supply issues, people are actually paying over sticker in some cases, and there are no deals to be had. That made the Tesla compare quite favorably on price - Other manufacturers are asking north of $45K for an EV with any sort of driver assistance features, while the Model 3 starts at just shy of $40K with Autopilot included (more on that later).

The one drawback to Tesla: The base model (Model 3 Standard Range Plus) was sold out through January, and there was a significant cost to bridging that gap.

Then, they released a limited number of M3SR+ cars into inventory for "immediate" purchase, and after a quick conversation with my wife, I snapped one up. Good thing I was quick about it - I had searched for a Blue one because I'm sick of various shades of silver/gray/black, and 9 were available. In the time it took to have that conversation, 8 of the 9 were taken and I quickly snapped up the last one.

... to be continued ...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What I wanted: Well, a car with some automation to it. My commute sucks. I'm sure some of you have it worse, but I drive 35 miles each way and when there's traffic, I was arriving home just beat and in no mood to talk with my wife or play with my son and that sucked.

Tesla's Autopilot is included with every car they sell now. It's a combination of autosteer and traffic-aware cruise control, essentially. It's been out for several years and looks equivalent or better than other manufacturers' offerings on paper. It is NOT their "full self driving" package.

However, full self driving - Doesn't. Yet, at least. It's still under development. As of right now, it adds "Navigate On Autopilot" which will do automatic lane changes both to get around slower traffic and to take off-ramps to other highways when necessary, and it'll take your exit off the highway and give you control back at that point. It also has "Advanced Summon" which will pull into and out of parking spaces and garages, and even come from the parking lot at a store and pick you up at the entrance without anyone on board. It's also a $10,000 option now, or available as a $199/month subscription. "City streets full self driving" (supervised) is supposed to be right around the corner, but it's been that way for months. The more people they release the beta to, the more edge cases they find. Since straight-up Autopilot can handle most of what I'm looking for, I'm going to forego FSD for now. Both on my way to and from work, two of the three lanes where I get on the highway will go all the way to where I need to get off the highway. We'll see if I'm patient enough to not take over and pass anyone.

The other big thing I'm skipping is the checkbox to upgrade to the "Long Range" version, which also has dual motor AWD. I'm sure AWD would be nice in winter, but I have friends with RWD Teslas here who say it does just fine in the winter. FWIW, there's nothing particular about an electric vehicle that makes it automatically bad in winter - I've heard Priuses kind of suck, and the i3 definitely did suck and I'd have gotten some winter tires for it if I was going to have it for more than one winter, but my other three plug-ins have all done fine in the winter.

Leaving those two options behind saves me $20,000 and makes the car affordable... But it will accomplish the mission very well with very few drawbacks in comparison.

One additional item of note: This car has the "LFP" battery (Lithium Iron Phosphate) that Tesla has been using in China and Europe. The range is 10 miles lower than the "normal" chemistry they've been using, likely because the LFP battery is heavier. However, the LFP is the "million mile battery" they've talked about. They degrade much slower than previous batteries, and they can be charged to 100% all the time with no additional degradation, while the previous chemistry was best stopped at 80-90% charge. That means that the real-world, daily usable range will be better. The other disadvantage of the LFP besides weight is power density (kWh/m^3). It's only on the standard range cars because it takes up the full space that the long-range battery takes. But, that's mostly a disadvantage for those who buy the long-range one as they'll still have the older chemistry that's less tolerant of full charges and degrades faster.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My last post to start the thread is, unfortunately, not so rosy. This is about the experience so far.

Ordering was super easy... But my car was listed as Boston. I suspect it was not actually in Boston, but in California and originally intended for Boston, since it arrived in Chicago on a train.

In any case, my "Tesla Advisor" originally told me that I could probably take delivery on 9/5, the Tuesday after Labor Day, and so I went ahead and sold the Bolt to CarMax on Friday before the long weekend.

But then, there was no word, and when I asked, it sounded like she didn't have access to good information as to the progress of shipping.

The delivery date on the web site slipped to "September 11-13". After arrival, I was told that it'd take a day for them to detail it and have it ready to go.

Then, the delivery date changed to "September 10-13", ON September 10. I tried to call the facility in Highland Park, IL where I have to pick it up (thanks to the stupid auto dealer laws here in WI) but it seems all the local facility numbers now redirect to a call center. The people I've spoken with at the call center are very nice and as helpful as they can be, but they're not on site. The entire point of me calling the local number was to get a hold of someone who could verify whether the car had arrived, and try to pick it up at a time that would actually work for me.

Then, I was informed via automated text message that my pickup time was Thursday at 2 PM, an unworkable time - We're down to one car, and my wife is a teacher and can't really take off work for anything short of nuclear holocaust. The call center folks can't reschedule the pickups, but every time they tried to transfer me to the local store I not only didn't get a person, but I wasn't able to leave a message. Grrrrr! Finally, I got through and was told that I couldn't reschedule without waiting even longer, and that I should just show up three hours late. Face. Palm.

Tesla needs to figure out a system where they can track the cars whether they're on a train or a truck, have a pretty good idea of how long it'll take them to arrive, plan for the time it'll take to get the car ready, and then OFFER a choice of available slots for delivery to the customer. The current "system" of emailing one person who doesn't have enough info, calling more people who don't have enough info and can't help, and giving the customer zero input is very inefficient and annoying.

I was like a kid at Christmas when this started... Now, I'm just looking forward to the pre-delivery phase to be over.

Luckily, I know I'll probably forget all this as soon as I have the car - I rented one for a week a couple years ago and it was freaking fantastic (and I posted about it elsewhere on PoA). But since Tesla is a company whose marketing strategy is pretty much based on word of mouth, they need to make sure those mouths don't start with a sour taste in them.

 

[weilke]

Have you ever run the alternate pro-forma that would have included buying a 4-cylinder Camry in 2015 and driving it until the wheels come off ?

 

[FastEddieB]

Have you ever run the alternate pro-forma that would have included buying a 4-cylinder Camry in 2015 and driving it until the wheels come off ?

Hardly what a kid at Christmas dreams of!

Anyway, congratulations Kent, and I’m jealous. Sorry about the hiccups at the end but I expect the aggravation will fade quickly once your car is in your hot little hands. Our 2018 Honda Clarity PHEV is still a perfect transitional vehicle for us, and our Tesla stock has appreciated to where we could “pull the trigger” anytime, but for now we’re just patiently watching the EV landscape evolve. And hopefully for TSLA to keep on going up!

 

[Brad Z]

Have you ever run the alternate pro-forma that would have included buying a 4-cylinder Camry in 2015 and driving it until the wheels come off ?

Ha ha, I was thinking the same. You don't go electric just to save money.

I will say the Tesla automation sounds neat; but my wife gets annoyed when I gratuitously use cruise control, so it will probably be a while before I'm driving anything that even remotely resembles self-driving.

 

[Velocity173]

Congrats. Hope the M3 works out well for you. I’ll probably get rid of the Volt next year for full EV. Volt’s been a good little car but I want something with way more performance and EV range. The M3 seems like the logical choice right now but a lot more players are coming on the scene so I’m still undecided.

 

[weilke]

I will say the Tesla automation sounds neat; but my wife gets annoyed when I gratuitously use cruise control, so it will probably be a while before I'm driving anything that even remotely resembles self-driving.

I just splurged on a new Camry and they all come with adaptive cruise control and lane centering. It has 'stop&go' so in traffic, you can set it to just follow the car ahead. Works well, won't stop you from bowling over a pedestrian who steps into the road.

If your i-Car dies after two years, is that like with the phone where the battery puffs up and pushes put the windshield ? Just wondering.

 

[Ted]

I just splurged on a new Camry and they all come with adaptive cruise control and lane centering. It has 'stop&go' so in traffic, you can set it to just follow the car ahead. Works well, won't stop you from bowling over a pedestrian who steps into the road.

We've had a few rental cars with that feature, and it works remarkably well. It's no secret that I'm not a fan of nannies and babysitters, but even I have to admit that when you're in annoying stop-and-go traffic, it's not a bad feature.

Of course, a Camry is the only vehicle out there that might suck your soul dry even more than an EV.

 

[EdFred]

If you can convince yourself that the Mooney is wide and comfortable, once you get it, you'll be touting the delivery experience of a Tesla to be a feature rather than a hindrance.

 

[Brad Z]

I just splurged on a new Camry and they all come with adaptive cruise control and lane centering. It has 'stop&go' so in traffic, you can set it to just follow the car ahead. Works well, won't stop you from bowling over a pedestrian who steps into the road.

If your i-Car dies after two years, is that like with the phone where the battery puffs up and pushes put the windshield ? Just wondering.

Our Nissan Armada has adaptive cruise control which sort of does this. What drives me (and especially my wife) nuts is that when someone ahead shifts lanes and the lane opens up, the cruise control essentially floors the gas to get back up to target speed. It's not particularly smooth in that respect; that might just be a Nissan thing.

 

[charheep]

Coworker just got a M3Perf. I am quite jealous. Minus the 3.1 0-60 launches it does, the tech is pretty amazing. I have a Model Y in my sights when I no longer need the Sequoia.

 

[kjwalker01]

However, full self driving - Doesn't. Yet, at least. It's still under development. As of right now, it adds "Navigate On Autopilot" which will do automatic lane changes both to get around slower traffic and to take off-ramps to other highways when necessary, and it'll take your exit off the highway and give you control back at that point. It also has "Advanced Summon" which will pull into and out of parking spaces and garages, and even come from the parking lot at a store and pick you up at the entrance without anyone on board. It's also a $10,000 option now, or available as a $199/month subscription. "City streets full self driving" (supervised) is supposed to be right around the corner, but it's been that way for months.

I've had a Model Y for just about a year now, and paid for the Full Self Driving option. I wish I hadn't. I quickly turned off the Navigate on Autopilot automatic lane changes, as they were(are) too abrupt. Plus, the car can't really see a turn signal on another vehicle beyond the lane next to you, so the chances of changing lanes into someone is just too great. The "Advance Summon" is nothing but a parlor trick. I tested it one time in a mostly empty parking lot and the results were mixed. I've actually never seen anyone use this out in the wild and a quick search for YouTube videos shows why. And I really question just how "close" Tesla is to what they call Full Self Driving on city streets. It was supposed to be released before Christmas last year.

 

[Jim K]

TLDR all of it...

But congrats on the new wheels. Seriously. I'll always be a big cube engine lover, but I suspect my next pickup will be electric, and we've had a Pacifica PHEV for 4 years. Being a Chrysler, the electronics were questionable, it made some funny noises, and it needed tires, so we traded it for a new one yesterday. With the tax credit and what they gave us on trade, it pencils out cheaper than keeping the old one. Probably need to be trading every 2-3 years so long as all you tax payers are helping me pay for it.

It saves us a lot of money as my wife's daily school runs can be done on about 95% electrons. Lets me afford more of that yummy avgas.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I refuse to buy any auto that forces me to pay a subscription for features that are included with the car. Subscription for remote start, navigation, performance packages, or auto-pilot? Nope. No thank you. I do realize that many automakers (mainly luxury brands like BMW/Merc/Tesla) are trying to go towards this "subscription model" to try and create a new revenue stream, but it will make my decision even more solid not to buy from those brands regardless of how good their car may be.

 

[Brad W]

That is something that annoys me as well, but even the 2006 Silverado I traded for my E-Tron had a subscription option for Onstar and another for Sat radio. I think that's just the way it is now. I suspect the market is pretty small now for cars that don't have at least some subscription based features....
My Audi has subscriptions to use many of the features, and they cost more than I realized they would. Certainly doesn't make me happy.

 

[SoonerAviator]

That is something that annoys me as well, but even the 2006 Silverado I traded for my E-Tron had a subscription option for Onstar and another for Sat radio. I think that's just the way it is now. I suspect the market is pretty small now for cars that don't have at least some subscription based features....
My Audi has subscriptions to use many of the features, and they cost more than I realized they would. Certainly doesn't make me happy.

I understand subscriptions for Sirius/XM radio, as it's a completely different service. I can partially understand OnStar, but OnStar still works if you need it in an emergency. You just can't get away with calling up OnStar for the more mundane stuff like unlocking your doors when you left the keys in it or having them honk your horn because you forgot where you parked it at Disney World, lol. However, paying to use remote start? I don't think so, that's a standard feature on most any vehicle in the past decade, so making it a "subscription service" is ridiculous. Same goes for massaging/heated/cooling seats. Yet, BMW wanted to make it a subscription . . . to use a feature ALREADY INSTALLED on a vehicle. BMW also wanted to charge their owners $80/yr for the use of Apple CarPlay or Android Auto. It's a feature BMW didn't even have to pay for to begin with aside from having it integrated into the Infotainment software, lol.

 

[Zeldman]

I've had a Model Y for just about a year now, and paid for the Full Self Driving option. I wish I hadn't.

I hear ya, I love driving too much to let someone or something else do the driving.

Don't take me wrong, someday there will be an electric car that meets my needs and I look forward to that day.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Have you ever run the alternate pro-forma that would have included buying a 4-cylinder Camry in 2015 and driving it until the wheels come off ?

A Camry? No. If I was going to go that route, I'd have probably gotten an Accord instead.

But, someone did do it for me. The 5-year TCO* of the Model 3 came in about $800 cheaper than the lowest trim of the Camry.

Two big caveats, though: They completely skipped maintenance, which favors the Tesla big time. No oil changes, no brake jobs, no all kinds of things required on a gas car. We spend about 8 cents a mile on regular maintenance on my wife's gasser.

The other is that they assume 13,500 miles per year. I drive nearly double that, and more miles also favors electric cars big-time. Driving electric is like buying gas for 80 cents per gallon.

I will say the Tesla automation sounds neat; but my wife gets annoyed when I gratuitously use cruise control, so it will probably be a while before I'm driving anything that even remotely resembles self-driving.

I have had to get in the habit of using cruise more. I got 2 speeding tickets in 3 months with the Bolt... One of them I'd have probably gotten in a gasser, but the other one surprised me - I was thinking about something else and managed to accelerate to 53 in a 35 in less than a half mile completely inadvertently. Gotta pay a lot more attention when the acceleration is effortless and there's no noise to remind you of what's going on!

But congrats on the new wheels. Seriously. I'll always be a big cube engine lover, but I suspect my next pickup will be electric, and we've had a Pacifica PHEV for 4 years. Being a Chrysler, the electronics were questionable, it made some funny noises, and it needed tires, so we traded it for a new one yesterday. With the tax credit and what they gave us on trade, it pencils out cheaper than keeping the old one. Probably need to be trading every 2-3 years so long as all you tax payers are helping me pay for it.

It saves us a lot of money as my wife's daily school runs can be done on about 95% electrons. Lets me afford more of that yummy avgas.

That's one that I've been eyeing... My wife, after being almost militantly anti-minivan in the past, has asked about them a couple times recently, and the Pacifica PHEV has very respectable electric range for a PHEV, and you don't pay the "SUV tax". I'd love to hear more about it.

I refuse to buy any auto that forces me to pay a subscription for features that are included with the car. Subscription for remote start, navigation, performance packages, or auto-pilot? Nope. No thank you. I do realize that many automakers (mainly luxury brands like BMW/Merc/Tesla) are trying to go towards this "subscription model" to try and create a new revenue stream, but it will make my decision even more solid not to buy from those brands regardless of how good their car may be.

Did you know that MBAs never need Viagra? They just have to get their spouses to whisper "recurring revenue" into their ears.

But... Good luck not buying a car with any subscriptions. I mean, you can certainly buy a car and not pay for any subscriptions, but it's more common than not these days. I'm not at all saying it doesn't suck, but...

I can partially understand OnStar, but OnStar still works if you need it in an emergency. You just can't get away with calling up OnStar for the more mundane stuff like unlocking your doors when you left the keys in it or having them honk your horn because you forgot where you parked it at Disney World, lol. However, paying to use remote start? I don't think so, that's a standard feature on most any vehicle in the past decade, so making it a "subscription service" is ridiculous.

I could remote start the Bolt from key fob range (100 feet or so) without a subscription, but I did need a subscription to remote start from the app. Ticked me off, but that's pretty common these days. (FWIW, it was free on the Ford at the time, it was extra $$ up front PLUS a subscription on the Beemer, and it's subscription on the GMs.)

Same goes for massaging/heated/cooling seats. Yet, BMW wanted to make it a subscription . . . to use a feature ALREADY INSTALLED on a vehicle. BMW also wanted to charge their owners $80/yr for the use of Apple CarPlay or Android Auto. It's a feature BMW didn't even have to pay for to begin with aside from having it integrated into the Infotainment software, lol.

Yeah, that's over the line IMO. The FSD is at least partially justified because you're paying for something that's going to continue to get better over time.

Tesla does offer some "unlock" features, but they're a one-time deal and mostly they are that way because Tesla saves some $$ on parts complexity by installing only one version of things on the production line. For example, heated rear seats are standard in the Long Range model 3, but since they install them on every car for production simplicity, they began offering a $300 software unlock for the standard range as well. Same with the heated steering wheel.

I've had a Model Y for just about a year now, and paid for the Full Self Driving option. I wish I hadn't. I quickly turned off the Navigate on Autopilot automatic lane changes, as they were(are) too abrupt.

What do you have your lane changes set at? When I rented a Model 3 for a week in late 2018, I found that it wasn't nearly aggressive enough, even when lane changes were set to "Mad Max" mode. But, I've heard the same complaint as you in the past, though I also heard that it got better with a software update a couple months ago so you may want to give it another try.

It does seem like new Autopilot/FSD features come out and drive like a drunk teenager, but they get better over time. The difference in autopilot from 9/2017 to 11/2018 was astounding.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I hear ya, I love driving too much to let someone or something else do the driving.

See, I've had this conversation with @Ted too... But I realized something recently.

I love *driving*. There are lots of really cool "roller coaster" roads near my house that are really fun, and if I'm not in a hurry and my wife isn't aboard (aka a-bored ) I'll go out of my way to drive on them.

But... I hate *commuting*. Driving on the same 30 miles of Interstate highway twice a day SUCKS. Nothing to see, no fun twists and turns, boatloads of ****ty drivers to contend with... Yuck. This is probably partially because I drove trucks over the road for a few years and I have well over a million miles behind me, but I've always preferred driving on roads that I've either never been on before, or present more of a challenging drive. Hell, I go out and drive in snowstorms for fun!

So, while I will *never* own a car that is fully self driving all the time (level 5 self driving, no controls), I definitely appreciate that I'll have an option to hopefully make the commute suck less so that when I get home I still feel like burning up some rubber on the back roads with all the gadgets turned off.

 

[atbroome]

Would you mind sharing where you found one and what the price after discounts but before trade in was? I almost pulled the trigger on a Pacifica PHEV in March when there were plenty on lots, the factory was still running, and incentives brought the price down to what I was willing to pay.

Fast forward to now and the factory has been shut for most of the summer due to the chip shortage, incentives are gone, and the MSRP has been bumped resulting in a van at a price level a bit above what I think I would be willing to pay, even if I could find one.

we've had a Pacifica PHEV for 4 years. Being a Chrysler, the electronics were questionable, it made some funny noises, and it needed tires, so we traded it for a new one yesterday. With the tax credit and what they gave us on trade, it pencils out cheaper than keeping the old one. Probably need to be trading every 2-3 years so long as all you tax payers are helping me pay for it.
.

 

[Jim K]

That's one that I've been eyeing... My wife, after being almost militantly anti-minivan in the past, has asked about them a couple times recently, and the Pacifica PHEV has very respectable electric range for a PHEV, and you don't pay the "SUV tax". I'd love to hear more about it.

Our first one was an '18, built in '17 which was the first year for them. The drivetrain was flawless for 75k, with no loss in range over that time. 4 years, with 2 full charge/ discharge cycles per day. They did a great job on that. It drives nice (for a van) and is pretty fast (for a van). All my complaints really revolved around the body electronics. I'm hoping they got some of that sorted out by now. It didn't start too well though, the climate control computer wigged out as we were pulling out of the dealer's lot. I fixed it by turning it off and turning it back on again

We used to drive a lot of long trips, but now that we have the plane the car hasn't been more than about 60 miles from home. I'd be interested in a fully electric van at this point, if one was available.

 

[wayne]

The other is that they assume 13,500 miles per year. I drive nearly double that, and more miles also favors electric cars big-time. Driving electric is like buying gas for 80 cents per gallon.

I have had to get in the habit of using cruise more. I got 2 speeding tickets in 3 months with the Bolt... One of them I'd have probably gotten in a gasser, but the other one surprised me - I was thinking about something else and managed to accelerate to 53 in a 35 in less than a half mile completely inadvertently. Gotta pay a lot more attention when the acceleration is effortless and there's no noise to remind you of what's going on!

I drive maybe half that, even less with WFH due to COVID. I have a 2016 that just turned 36,000 miles; I bought it a year old with ~4,200 miles on it.

I didn't get a ticket, but when I first bought the BMW 328i Coupe I had several years ago I had a similar acceleration experience. I'd moved up from an econocar. I accelerated and looked down and saw the needle quickly moving past 90 mph. 90?! And quickly backed off the accelerator. Sheesh that car would accelerate.

 

[wayne]

I am thinking of getting an EV for my next car. Right now I'm stilling enjoying my Mustang convertible with a manual transmission too much. The Mustang is rather impractical though. While there are four seats, only two of them are useful for more than a short drive. The convertible means the back seats are narrow and the trunk is small.

We tend to fly if we need to go very far though; private or commercial. So the impractical part of the Mustang is not too big of a deal. Flying means that super long range in an EV isn't that big of a deal either. Our youngest graduated from college just over a year ago and that was a trip where we'd usually drive; it was ~230 miles. If we visit our middle daughter we fly private. It's about 1:30 - 1:45 of flying time versus 6 hours of driving (more for construction, accidents or holidays).

Right now I'm leaning towards the Kia Niro EV. I'm not purchasing soon, so I'll just wait and see what comes along. Not as cool as a convertible Mustang, but far more practical and oddly a foot and a half shorter. Holds more people, more stuff and it's smaller, which would be nice in the tiny garage in our new townhome.

 

[airdale]

I took a brief drive in a friend's new M3. I think I could get used to the goofiness of the accelerator pedal wanting to also be a brake pedal, but having to turn my head away from the road in order to read the central display panel is a complete disqualifier. Many cars have central displays but to my knowledge all of them also have critical information, like speed, directly in front of the driver.

I guess the engineering judgment in the M3 was that making the display easy for a passenger to play with trumped the idea that the driver's eyes should be on the road.

 

[Jim K]

Would you mind sharing where you found one and what the price after discounts but before trade in was? I almost pulled the trigger on a Pacifica PHEV in March when there were plenty on lots, the factory was still running, and incentives brought the price down to what I was willing to pay.

Fast forward to now and the factory has been shut for most of the summer due to the chip shortage, incentives are gone, and the MSRP has been bumped resulting in a van at a price level a bit above what I think I would be willing to pay, even if I could find one.

It was weird...I was looking at the dealer website to get their service dept. number so I could get my '18 in for some work. They had this one advertised, and it's exactly how I would've ordered it, minus the color. They had it listed $1500 below sticker, and after a couple other discounts we qualified for, the selling price was 47500. Sticker was 51585. They offered me about 4k more for my '18 than I thought it was worth, so it was an easy decision. I wasn't really expecting to buy a car yesterday. This one was in Mattoon, il, so then we had lunch at KMTO. There isn't another one for sale within a hundred miles though.

ETA: went back and looked; that's about $800 more than I paid for the '18, both cars very similarly optioned.

 

[Stingray Don]

I have had my Model 3 for two years and 18,000 miles. Thus far, my maintenance has been topping off the wiper fluid once. That’s it. No trips to the gas station once a week. No time wasted at the quickie lube or dealership. Basically a maintenance free car. Best car I have ever owned!

 

[Ted]

I have had my Model 3 for two years and 18,000 miles. Thus far, my maintenance has been topping off the wiper fluid once. That’s it. No trips to the gas station once a week. No time wasted at the quickie lube or dealership. Basically a maintenance free car. Best car I have ever owned!

Ok, but if you look at most new gasoline cars, you're having to stop for gas now and then (if you're driving, you probably drive by a gas station), and you probably have a 10k mile or so oil change interval (my truck is 15k, although I do it at 10k). Otherwise, it's just whatever breaks and is covered under warranty. You might be saving a little bit, but not a lot. My Ram is basically maintenance free as well. Our Mercedes have (and the last one had) 10k mile intervals. Modern gas cars are more or less maintenance free.

 

[asicer]

Modern gas cars are more or less maintenance free.

At some point, you'll want to change out the coolant, transmission fluid, spark plugs and air filter too. Also, if you have them, fluids for the differential, transfer case and clutch.

 

[AggieMike88]

Coworker just got a M3Perf. I am quite jealous. Minus the 3.1 0-60 launches it does, the tech is pretty amazing. I have a Model Y in my sights when I no longer need the Sequoia.

2019 M3P AWD Dual Motor Stealth (doesn’t have the shiny over priced plastic trims). Love it.

 

[AggieMike88]

This thread reminds me…. It’s time for me to renew my car registration.

Time to go to the local quickie lube and ask for an emissions inspection and see if the tech tries to find the exhaust pipe.

 

[Jim K]

At some point, you'll want to change out the coolant, transmission fluid, spark plugs and air filter too. Also, if you have them, fluids for the differential, transfer case and clutch.

Electric cars have coolant. All that I'm aware of have transmissions and differentials. Those fluids and spark plugs are generally not serviced for 100,000 miles. The only manuals left are in enthusiast cars who won't mind the extra mx, and every car I've owned since the 2006 cobalt we bought when we were first married has said that the auto trans fluid is good for the life of the car.

About the only maintenance a modern car needs is an oil change every 10k, and an air filter every 25 or so. Rotate the tires and look at the brakes (electric cars need that too, but the brakes last far longer). Don't even have to grease the steering anymore.

The whole electric cars don't need maintenence thing is a bit overwrought. They need less, but the amount a modern ice car needs is already pretty minimal.

One thing that annoys me about the van is that it requires oil changes at 10k mile intervals, at least while under warranty. Usually the oil life monitor is still at 80% or more, as most of the time the engine is just along for the ride. I'm tempted to save the oil and put it back in later. They say I have to change the oil, not put in new...

 

[Ted]

At some point, you'll want to change out the coolant, transmission fluid, spark plugs and air filter too. Also, if you have them, fluids for the differential, transfer case and clutch.

Sure, but except for the air filter, you’re mostly looking at 100k+ items for all of those. Never changed clutch fluid though.

 

[wayne]

I have had my Model 3 for two years and 18,000 miles. Thus far, my maintenance has been topping off the wiper fluid once. That’s it. No trips to the gas station once a week. No time wasted at the quickie lube or dealership. Basically a maintenance free car. Best car I have ever owned!

Here are the requirements:

Cabin air filter: The filter should be changed every two years or every three years if it’s a High-Efficiency Particulate Air (HEPA) filter.

Tire rotation: Tesla recommends rotating the tires and balancing the alignment every 10,000 to 12,000 miles.

Brake fluid test: Tesla owners should have the brake fluid tested every two years and replaced as needed.

Air conditioning service: Tesla recommends servicing the air conditioning every two to six years, depending on the model.

Winter care: Drivers in cold-weather regions should clean and lubricate their car’s brake calipers every 12 months or 12,500 miles.


Less than an ICE car, but not zero.



Wayne

 

[asicer]

Electric cars have coolant.

Not all of them.

All that I'm aware of have transmissions and differentials.

Some are single speed, some like the Kia Niro are direct-drive.

However, we're getting away from the point...

The whole electric cars don't need maintenence thing is a bit overwrought.

On this, I do not disagree. As a matter of fact, I would consider unscheduled maintenance by far a much a bigger concern.

 

[A Martin]

.

1990's my commute was over 70 miles per day .... my large cars used $400 month in fuel ..... bought a VW diesel and fuel cost went down to $100 per month .... car lasted for over 300,000 miles ... car cost $17k to buy ... fuel savings over 13 years about $46k ... it was almost like driving for free and car paid for itself several times over.

No lithium batteries were harmed in the production of this post.

.

 

[Jim K]

Not all of them

Not to drift this thread any further... who am I kidding this is poa.

Are there any electric cars that don't suck that don't use liquid cooled/ heated batteries? The leaf is the only one I know of that's an actual car, not a "neighborhood vehicle", and last I heard the battery life is lousy. When I first heard of a liquid cooled battery, I thought it sounded like a terrible idea, but it certainly appears to to a necessity with the current chemistry. I was really concerned about buying the first Pacifica, thinking the battery would degrade rapidly after a couple years like a phone, but it held up quite well, and from what I read the older volts and teslas have surprisingly little loss in range.

We have a 240v/50a charger in the garage. It was weird at first hearing the fans kick on an hour after you shut the car off & plugged it in. On a hot day the '18 sounded like a pt6 spooling up. The new one doesn't seem to do that, but we've only charged it three times so far.

 

[asicer]

Are there any electric cars that don't use liquid cooled/ heated batteries?

Nissan Leaf. VW e-Golf.

...that don't suck

Oh. Since you phrased it that way, nevermind.

 

[FormerHangie]

Have you ever run the alternate pro-forma that would have included buying a 4-cylinder Camry in 2015 and driving it until the wheels come off ?

I bought a PHEV Ford Fusion seven and a half years ago, and have put almost 95,000 miles on it. I did a little quick figuring on the cost, and it has cost me about $39,000 all in, that's with the car being worth $8200 today. That figure came from Edmunds. I did the same figures for the gasser Fusion, it came to a little over $45,000, so the PHEV car has been about $6300 less expensive overall. My car is the Titanium trim level, I could have saved a little money by stepping down to an SE, but I'm going to drive it for at least eight and a half years, and possibly longer, I'm thinking of keeping it for a while after the Cayman arrives, so I got the higher trim. The seats alone were worth it.

For the PHEV, the largest expense is depreciation, of course. Insurance is #2 and fuel is #3. For a conventional drivetrain Fusion, depreciation is #1, fuel is #2, and insurance #3.

Of course, a Camry is the only vehicle out there that might suck your soul dry even more than an EV.

In town, the EV is more satisfying to drive than is a car with a conventional drivetrain, because the accelerator pedal response is so good. Out on the highway the hybrid drives very similarly to a conventional automatic equipped car.

Ok, but if you look at most new gasoline cars, you're having to stop for gas now and then (if you're driving, you probably drive by a gas station), and you probably have a 10k mile or so oil change interval (my truck is 15k, although I do it at 10k). Otherwise, it's just whatever breaks and is covered under warranty. You might be saving a little bit, but not a lot. My Ram is basically maintenance free as well. Our Mercedes have (and the last one had) 10k mile intervals. Modern gas cars are more or less maintenance free.

My experience with my previous car is that for the first 8 or 9 years and 80,000-100,000, the engine doesn't require much more than regular oil changes and a few air filters. After that, things aren't so trouble free. That car needed a valve cover gasket, a fuel pump, and alternator, and coil packs, all between 90,000 and 125,000 miles. At 118,000, I did a timing belt change, which wasn't too expensive but did take me all day. One thing I noticed driving the Fusion is that even when you're driving in hybrid mode, the engine compartment stays much cooler than a conventional car's would. Towards the end of the 12 years I had my previous car, the air conditioning started getting weak. I had it serviced, but the tech suggested that the A/C hoses had started becoming porous, and that was about as well as that car was going to cool unless I wanted to replace all the hoses, which would be a couple of thousand dollars. I suspect all the rubber and plastic on the Fusion will hold up much better due to the lower underhood temperature.

 

[chartbundle]

I refuse to buy any auto that forces me to pay a subscription for features that are included with the car. Subscription for remote start, navigation, performance packages, or auto-pilot? Nope. No thank you. I do realize that many automakers (mainly luxury brands like BMW/Merc/Tesla) are trying to go towards this "subscription model" to try and create a new revenue stream, but it will make my decision even more solid not to buy from those brands regardless of how good their car may be.

I got a GM product a few years ago and I amputated the cellular modem from the OnStar within the first week. I'm at a bit of a crossroads as I want my next car to have all the fancy stuff like pseudo-self-driving and similar. And that's going to require me not to neuter the communications and phone home systems. Oh well, choices.