Ten-Hour Training Rule For Complex Airplanes Remains Unchanged

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FAA Releases Final Updated Rules On Flight Training

Ten-Hour Training Rule For Complex Airplanes Remains Unchanged

In an NPRM published on August 31, 2009, the FAA put out for public comment 16 proposed changes to the FAA's existing pilot, flight instructor, and pilot school certification regulations. The final rule, published in the Federal Register on Wednesday, amends the FAA's regulations concerning pilot, flight instructor, and pilot school certification. This rule will require pilot-in-command (PIC) proficiency checks for pilots who act as PIC of turbojet-powered aircraft except for pilots of single seat experimental jets and pilots of experimental jets who do not carry passengers.
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It allows pilot applicants to apply concurrently for a private pilot certificate and an instrument rating and permits pilot schools and provisional pilot schools to apply for a combined private pilot certification and instrument rating course.

In addition, the rule will allow pilot schools to use Internet-based training programs without requiring schools to have a physical ground training facility; revise the definition of "complex airplane"; and allow the use of airplanes with throwover control wheels for expanded flight training.

The final rule also amends the FAA's regulations concerning pilot certificates to allow the conversion of a foreign pilot license to a U.S. pilot certificate under the provisions of a Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement (BASA) and Implementing Procedures for Licensing (IPL). The FAA has determined these amendments are needed to enhance safety, respond to changes in the aviation industry, and reduce unnecessary regulatory burdens.

Of the proposed rule changes, proposal 2, which would require proficiency checks for PICs of single-piloted turbojet-powered aircraft, and proposal 3, which would permit application for an instrument rating concurrently with a private pilot certificate, raised the largest response by commenters. Upon review of the comments, the FAA has concluded that the rule requiring proficiency checks for single-piloted turbojet-powered aircraft was not well suited to experimental turbojet-powered aircraft and had the potential to add significant expense for the pilots of those aircraft.

The final rule allows alternative methods of compliance for pilots of experimental jets that possess more than a single seat. It excludes from the proficiency check requirement those pilots of experimental jets that possess more than a single seat who do not carry passengers and those pilots of experimental jets that possess a single seat. The FAA has also modified the rule permitting concurrent application for a private pilot certificate and instrument rating because the rule as proposed in the original NPRM failed to recognize that the prerequisite of 50 hours of cross-country time for the instrument rating could not easily be met by a student pilot. The FAA has added a provision to Sec. 61.65 to accommodate an alternative method of compliance with that requirement.

Finally, the NPRM proposed to replace the 10 hours of training in a complex airplane required for pilots applying for a commercial pilot certificate with 10 hours of advanced instrument training. These proposals would have resulted in changes to both Part 61 and Part 141. However, in response to the public comments received and in light of the recently passed Airline Safety and Federal Aviation Administration Extension Act of 2010 (Pub. L. 111-2163) that addresses flight crewmember training, the FAA has elected not to adopt these proposals.

These amendments become effective October 31, 2011.

I am interested in the ammendment to 61.65 and how this could apply to and benefit someone like me (new PPL post-checkride non-IR). Where can I find a copy of the new regulation before it becomes effective on 10/31/11?
 
I am interested in the ammendment to 61.65 and how this could apply to and benefit someone like me (new PPL post-checkride non-IR). Where can I find a copy of the new regulation before it becomes effective on 10/31/11?

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-08-31/pdf/2011-22308.pdf is the fed register release.

I don't think the FAA online regs will show the changes until they become effective.

Bottom line for most of us is that the CFI and Commercial tickets will still require a retractable-gear airplane, but not necessarily a manually-controlled propeller, since the definition of complex now includes the FADEC airplanes.

For students who KNOW they wish to get a PPL-IA, they can now follow a syllabus for that outcome and take a combined checkride. It may be some time before the 141 schools have approved courses for this, though.
 
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are there any retract singles with FADEC? I thought that FADEC rule was implemented so the DA-40 could be used for multi training
 
are there any retract singles with FADEC? I thought that FADEC rule was implemented so the DA-40 could be used for multi training

I believe that the some of the "coming" singles (DA-50?) will have FADEC, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some turboprops moving to single-lever controls in the future if the builders feel customers would value it.

I believe that current DA-42 is the one that had PTS guidance attached to it to say it could be used for checkrides as a "complex" airplane.

I sure wish they'd removed the retractable gear requirement. Arrows and other older (meaning affordable) retractable singles are getting harder to find and maintain.
 
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I believe that the some of the "coming" singles (DA-50?) will have FADEC, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some turboprops moving to single-lever controls in the future if the builders feel customers would value it.

I believe that current DA-42 is the one that had PTS guidance attached to it to say it could be used for checkrides as a "complex" airplane.

I sure wish they'd removed the retractable gear requirement. Arrows and other older (meaning affordable) retractable singles are getting harder to find and maintain.


The deal with the DA-42 was Controllable Pitch Propeller because ME PTS stipulated the prop. IIRC they ruled that it indeed had a controllable pitch propeller even though it was a single lever control.
 
Some great news for me:

"The rule allows crediting cross-country time in which an applicant for the concurrent ratings performed the duties of pilot in command when accompanied by an instructor to satisfy a majority of the cross-country PIC time required"


This means I can log my dual x/c as a student towards my 50 hours x/c requirement for the instrument rating correct?
 
What's going to happen is that they will make a combined 60-70hr Private-Instrument course for 141 type schools that when you're done, you'll have both for less money than doing them individually. Not sure it's going to work out though. The 50 hr XC after PP requirement was there because that's how long it takes to really settle into having smooth control and a general mastery of using the trim and the ability to sit back, relax and let the plane fly itself with minimum input from you. You learn that fastest flying XC without an AP. You CAN learn it while you're learning the rest of it, but you're drinking from the fire hose....
 
my 141 school did not have 50 hr XC requirements for the instrument rating. I think I had about 80 or 90 hrs when i passed my instrument checkride, doing the ratings separately obviously
 
I have a feeling that what's going to happen in the future is that all PP will be required IR and SP will be the only VFR only rating.

They've been reducing the restrictions/requirrements for the IR for a while. When I did mine you had to have 125hrs TT, they removed that restriction a few years later.
 
I have a feeling that what's going to happen in the future is that all PP will be required IR and SP will be the only VFR only rating.

They've been reducing the restrictions/requirrements for the IR for a while. When I did mine you had to have 125hrs TT, they removed that restriction a few years later.

That makes the most sense out of the current "trends"...
 
You CAN learn it while you're learning the rest of it, but you're drinking from the fire hose....

Fine with me.

really settle into having smooth control and a general mastery of using the trim and the ability to sit back, relax and let the plane fly itself with minimum input from you

Pretty sure on my first solo with 15 hours I climbed up to pattern altitude, trimmed the airplane on downwind and sat back and relaxed??

How can you pass an instrument checkride without getting a handle on trim

I can see the reason for the 50 hours as a way to expose a pilot to flying through different airspace, over terrain and with weather etc. I had a long trip earlier this year where I logged 9 hours and had to make an unplanned fuel stop due to 30 knot headwinds, a stop to wait for weather, and a departure from 1000 ft broken ceiling (perfectly clear above, in flat ohio with no towers around) and a rocketship ride home with a 40 knot tailwind. I gained a ton of experience on this trip.

but I can't say that the 50 hour requirement is going to accomplish much. There are many people who have hundreds of hours more than I, who have not been much farther than 100nm from home base...
 
That makes the most sense out of the current "trends"...

I don't know, everything I read there was sensible and reasonable. The conflicts were settled in the form of less restriction than greater for the Sport Jet crowd, they should be all sorts of happy. Once again they showed, they will let you do anything you want to yourself with an airplane, they don't care. It's they don't want you to kill others. The planes operating limitations are such that their routing keeps the odds good that they'll be a single fatality. Pretty much, all the "Trends" out of the FAA have been easing trends for quite a while. Pt 103, no 125hrs for IR, SP/LSA, removed the permission restrictions from piston powered Exhibition Experimental, Made it less restrictive for getting help with experimentals, accepting insulin dependent diabetics, accepting SSRI use in particular circumstances.... Please, everyone wants to complain about the FAA, but here you go, they are backing out of our faces. Here's the thing, we have to do the right thing. We cannot fail to operate at an even higher standard than we were regulated to. If we let it slip, it will be back.
 
When I did mine you had to have 125hrs TT, they removed that restriction a few years later.
When I did mine you had to have 200 hours TT. I don't remember any of the other requirements, though.
 
Some great news for me:

"The rule allows crediting cross-country time in which an applicant for the concurrent ratings performed the duties of pilot in command when accompanied by an instructor to satisfy a majority of the cross-country PIC time required"


This means I can log my dual x/c as a student towards my 50 hours x/c requirement for the instrument rating correct?
IF you're still a student, and IF you're going to take a combined checkride, I think that's correct.

If you've already completed your PP checkride, it's not.
 
Now, wait for someone with more experience to weigh in... I may be misreading this, or my logic may not match the FAA's. It just seems to me that the "supervised PIC in lieu of SOLO" only applies to folks who are showing up for a combined PPL and IA checkride with a student pilot certificate.
 
Now, wait for someone with more experience to weigh in... I may be misreading this, or my logic may not match the FAA's. It just seems to me that the "supervised PIC in lieu of SOLO" only applies to folks who are showing up for a combined PPL and IA checkride with a student pilot certificate.
That's correct. The only place that appears is in the new 61.65(g):
(g) An applicant for a combined
private pilot certificate with an
instrument rating may satisfy the crosscountry
flight time requirements of this​
section by crediting:
(1) For an instrument-airplane rating
or an instrument-powered-lift rating, up
to 45 hours of cross-country flight time
performing the duties of pilot in
command with an authorized instructor;
or
(2) For an instrument-helicopter
rating, up to 47 hours of cross-country
flight time performing the duties of pilot
in command with an authorized
instructor.​
* *
No change if you already have a PPL and are applying only for an instrument rating to be added to your PP ticket under Part 61. In any event, you'd still need 45 hours of XC time, which is about 37 more hours than the least you'd need for PP, and I don't see the minimum required 3 hours of initial XC training being "performing the duties of pilot in command." All in all, I don't see it being a big hour-cutter. It's going to be more significant for collegiate and commercial professional pilot programs than anyone else, although it might have applicability for nonprofessionals going for their initial training in something complex/HP enough that the insurance company wants them to have like 100 hours before solo (e.g., buy a Baron and learn to fly in it, which does happen).
 
Yep, and I'll bet it's a lot more comforting for a CFI to not have to send the student pilot out for 40+ hours of XC time solo on the CFI's ticket, too.
 
In any event, if the FAA is really worried about pilots in commercial operations forgetting to lower the gear, they ought to put that requirement somewhere that only covers that problem, e.g., Part 121/135, or the ATP (rather than CP) requirements in Part 61 (now that ATP is required even to be a copilot in 121). But absent some indication that the incidence of gear-up landings in commercial operations dropped after that complex requirement was added ca. 1975 (and I don't think there is), I don't see any justification for the position taken by the airlines.

So, we're going to keep making folks get 10 hours in a ratty old Arrow before letting them fly passengers in a Cirrus, or banner tow in a SuperCub, or aerial application in an AgCat. :sigh:
 
In any event, if the FAA is really worried about pilots in commercial operations forgetting to lower the gear, they ought to put that requirement somewhere that only covers that problem, e.g., Part 121/135, or the ATP (rather than CP) requirements in Part 61 (now that ATP is required even to be a copilot in 121). But absent some indication that the incidence of gear-up landings in commercial operations dropped after that complex requirement was added ca. 1975 (and I don't think there is), I don't see any justification for the position taken by the airlines.

So, we're going to keep making folks get 10 hours in a ratty old Arrow before letting them fly passengers in a Cirrus, or banner tow in a SuperCub, or aerial application in an AgCat. :sigh:
:yeahthat:

Very well said.
 
Awfully glad I got this done years and years ago if I ever decide to go on in ratings. Those birds that qualify, when they're on the rental line, are often total ****bags maintenance-wise, nowadays.

The problem would be finding one that's not for a Commercial checkride.

Every retract I've ever seen put on a rental line gets it's *** kicked. All the local clubs have around here are tired beaters with tons of "Yeah, I had a gear problem in that thing" stories out the wazoo.

Keeping this requirement as the fleet continues to age is not smart.
 
It's very simple, if you're going to fly commercial there is a high likelihood you're getting a Multi as well. Just do the Multi first then you can do the SE Comm ride in whatever you please. If you do your initial commercial in a SES, will you need a retract for the SEL add on?

IOW can you use the 185 in summer on floats for SES then put it on wheel/skiis and take the SEL later. I would imagine hydraulic skiis would make it complex...
 
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If you do your initial commercial in a SES, will you need a retract for the SEL add on?
Per the CP-Airplane PTS:
This section further requires that the aircraft must:
4. be a complex airplane furnished by the applicant, unless the
applicant currently holds a commercial pilot certificate with a
single-engine or multiengine class rating as appropriate, for the
performance of takeoffs, landings, and appropriate emergency
procedures. A complex landplane is one having a retractable
landing gear, flaps, and controllable propeller. A complex
seaplane is one having flaps, floats, and controllable propeller.
Airplanes equipped with a full authority digital engine control
(FADEC) system are considered to have a controllable
propeller.
So yes, if you get your initial CP with an ASES rating in a floatplane with a constant speed prop and flaps, you can do an ASEL add-on in a Cessna 150 if you like, and then an AMEL add-on in a Partenavia P68.
I would imagine hydraulic skiis would make it complex...
I don't know exactly what "hydraulic skiis" are or whether they constitute "retractable landing gear."
 
I don't know exactly what "hydraulic skiis" are or whether they constitute "retractable landing gear."

Many skiis are built with a hydraulic cylinder to raise and lower them a few inches depending if you're on grass or snow.
 
Many skiis are built with a hydraulic cylinder to raise and lower them a few inches depending if you're on grass or snow.
For that to be "retractable landing gear," I think you'd need a definitive statement from the FAA.
 
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