Telluride in a 172?

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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Anyone here ever done it, and if so, would you do it again, or recommend against it?

I'll be making a trip to SW CO in early-mid Sep and would like to stop at TEX. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a turbo, so a 172N is probably the likely aircraft. My concern is obviously density altitude. While I have flown in and out of some high DA airports in Arizona, the 9000 foot elevation at TEX would definitely be the highest.

The 172N charts stop at 8000 pressure altitude and at 8000, it seems doable as long as the weight is low. It would just be myself in the a/c plus an overnight bag and less than full fuel. Just wondering how bad the aircraft performance would be another 1000 ft up.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The 172N charts stop at 8000
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In my experience, that's about where the climb capability stops too. I flew a 172M across the country 200# or more below gross, and anything above 9kMSL was luck more than skill at any density altitude. I'm now flying a 172Q, and greatly enjoying the difference that 20hp makes. On a flight to Oshkosh and across Canada with 1/2 fuel and 400# crew/cargo that just ended, there were many times we easily flew above 10.5kAGL and were glad of it. My suggestion: look for something more than a stock 172N. Even a powerflo exhaust might be enough. The stock 172 just isn't suitable for anything more than 200# and an hour or two of fuel, imo.
 
My experience has generally been in planes with that extra 20HP (172M with Penn Yan, 172S), but with about 500lbs in the front seat. 10K wasn't much of a problem. If you follow the usual precautions (fly earlier when it's cooler, have partial fuel), it should be doable. Just remember not to try to skim over the tops of the ridges, but clear them by a comfortable margin. Circle to gain altitude if needed. Always have an out "downhill". Don't be reticent to turn back and go the long way around if conditions demand.
 
I don't think you would have a problem if you're well below gross weight - like at least 200 lbs. I've had a 172 with 160hp up to almost 14,000' with two people on board, and it was still climbing. I'd go relatively early and try to be as light as possible.

That said, if something goes wrong, you won't have much of a power reserve to get out of the problem. 160hp in a downdraft or mountain wave is not enough. So, while this is certainly doable, it's obviously also much riskier than if you were flying something with 300hp. Less weight is your friend, and close to an airplane's service ceiling, even 50 lbs can make a significant difference.

-Felix
 
gprellwitz said:
My experience has generally been in planes with that extra 20HP (172M with Penn Yan, 172S), but with about 500lbs in the front seat. 10K wasn't much of a problem. If you follow the usual precautions (fly earlier when it's cooler, have partial fuel), it should be doable. Just remember not to try to skim over the tops of the ridges, but clear them by a comfortable margin. Circle to gain altitude if needed. Always have an out "downhill". Don't be reticent to turn back and go the long way around if conditions demand.
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I've had a 172N with the Penn Yan conversion to 12,500 MSL with two aboard. Wasn't difficult to climb there, but we had taken off from an airport that was less than 1000 MSL, so I can't say how take-off performance would be. But that extra 20 hp (at sea level) sure helps.
 
I've done it in a 172. Its not bad, just a little slow. Plan for early morning arrival and departure.

And don't listen to anyone that trots out the "You must have a turboed airplane to fly there." I've done it, and its doable. And hundreds of pilots do it every year.
 
I'll just point out that folks train in 160 hp 172's at Leadville.

Some of the basic mountain flying rules are: stay at least 10% below max gross and fly when it is cool...and don't have a cruise prop. Follow the rules.
 
SkyHog said:
And don't listen to anyone that trots out the "You must have a turboed airplane to fly there." I've done it, and its doable. And hundreds of pilots do it every year.
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Agreed, but when I was flying in Colorado in the Aztec a few weeks ago (80+ F at 9000 ft pretty well loaded up) I was wishing I had turbos. It would've been fine had it been cooler, though.

The 8500 ft DA takeoffs were just fine, however, and not at all scary or disconcerting.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Anyone here ever done it, and if so, would you do it again, or recommend against it?
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I don't know. Do you know what you are doing when flying mountainous terrain and high-DA airports?

Yes it's doable. I've flown a 172 into Leadville, which is even higher. But unless the conditions are ideal, you have mountain experience already, and you are prepared to divert, I wouldn't recommend it.

Right pilot, right conditions, sure. Take one of those away and no.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don't know. Do you know what you are doing when flying mountainous terrain and high-DA airports?

Yes it's doable. I've flown a 172 into Leadville, which is even higher. But unless the conditions are ideal, you have mountain experience already, and you are prepared to divert, I wouldn't recommend it.

Right pilot, right conditions, sure. Take one of those away and no.
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X2. If you can secure a 180 HP 172 or better, that would be preferable. I did it in my Tiger, but everything that Mark says applies.
 
I flew into Telluride a few weeks ago, in a 180hp 172. I went with an instructor based in Aspen for some mountain training. We also went into Leadville, and I have the certificate to prove it. Climb performance wasn't the greatest, but the instructor and me combined probably weighed 300 pounds, and we flew with half tanks. It was alot of fun, and I learned about following updrafts, but I wouldn't do that alone, I would want more mountain training first. With updrafts, we got up to nearly 14,000 ft.

Telluride.

DSC01905-1.jpg
 
Don't fly out heavy, and expect to use the canyon off the end of the runway to continue your climbout. Be patient. I flew out with full tanks, 3 men in a TR182 and it was exciting. Not in a good way. Kinda like the Doolittle bombers taking off from the Hornet. And that was with a turbo.

Mind your weight, and your density altitude. Use the terrain to your advantage. Check it out on Google Earth before you try it, get an idea of the topography.
 
I recently took off from Telluride in a 182S, on a hot mid-day, flying closer to max weight than min weight. It was a little exciting but felt safe. We took off to the west where the valley drops off quickly and you have plenty of time to climb out. I have no experience in a 172N so can't really say, but I was thankful for everyone of the 230 horses we had.

Study the terrain closely, Telluride's in a challenging location. Leadville is higher but in a relatively simple wide valley; the Telluride flight was definitely more memorable for me.

It looks like you are flying from California. A fun stop for us on the way to Colorado was Sedona, KSEZ. Beautiful mesa-top airport.
 
1. Are you familiar with mountain flying?
2. Have you taken high-altitude training?
3. Where are you coming from?
4. Stop in Montrose and take a mountain-flying refresher (is 1 and/or 2 is true)
5. Stop in Montrose and take a CFI along for TEX...a great learning experience.

Anytime you're over 5K, performance is impacted - remember, for every 1K feet, you lose 3% HP. At 9K, your 160 HP 172 is putting out 133 HP at full power, assuming you can get full power (unlikely...) At 75%, only 93 HP. At this point, you're flying a Rotax at sea level...
 
Thanks all for the input.

As far as familiarity with mountain flying goes, I have a fair amount of experience and comfort going in and out of several airports in the summertime between the 6-7000 MSL range in SoCal and Northern AZ. That has all been in non-turbocharged pistons 200 hp or less. I have actually been into TEX a couple times, but that was over 15 years ago in a PA32RT Turbo Lance during ski season, so while I am at least familiar with the layout and topography performance on that trip wasn't an issue.

On the positive side, our flying club has a 180 HP with a STOL conversion that just opened up on the schedule so I plan to take that one and leave myself the out of flying into MTJ if conditions are unfavorable.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Worse actually. You not only have less power but both the prop and the wings are less efficient in the thinner air.
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So *that's* why I have to pedal faster and flap my wings harder....
 
I've been to Leadville in both a 118hp Taylorcraft and a 180hp 172. It is possible to do it safely (both trips in July). Sitting on the ramp at Leadville, DA was over 12,000', even in the morning.

Go light. Go in the morning before it gets gusty and up/downdrafts become a big issue (talk to locals to find out when, but don't be surprised if it starts before they say). Learn about mountain flying before you go. Be conservative with everything. Before you need to cross a pass or high point, get the required altitude PLUS 1,000' to 2,000' before you commit to crossing. Adjust that margin based on how long you need to stay high. If it is just a ridge, 1,000' might be enough...more is always safer though.

Don't forget to properly lean the engine...an idiot I was with once took off out of Colorado Springs without leaning properly (too rich) and our climb rate was terrible until I asked him about it and made him fix it.
 
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