Teaching Women to Fly

[tonycondon]

I just saw this posted in the Women Soaring Pilots Association forums.

http://www.teachingwomentofly.com

 

[JeffDG]

They let women fly now?

 

[Everskyward]

They let women fly now?

 

[Areeda]

Thanks Tony!

Looking through it the only surprising thing is map reading and mechanical difficulties.

Interesting idea for a revolving low interest loan fund. I wonder if that's sustainable or if the default rate would be high?

Joe

 

[steingar]

Many if not most of those suggestions could benefit pilots of both genders. As it is we're fast becoming a threatened species. I suspect things need to be done differently than they have been done before if aviation is to remain a viable enterprise for any but the most wealthy.

 

[Anthony]

Many if not most of those suggestions could benefit pilots of both genders. As it is we're fast becoming a threatened species. I suspect things need to be done differently than they have been done before if aviation is to remain a viable enterprise for any but the most wealthy.

The powers that be want to force us all into LSA's.

I'd rather fly a motorcycle.

 

[Areeda]

It's unfortunate that the sample size is so small and probably not random. This makes the data less than compelling.

Nevertheless it is interesting. I find the conclusions logical but not really supported by the data.

For example the #1 recommendation is loans and grants but none of the pilots in training listed it and 29 of 153 certificate pilots listed it.

Cost is a factor for most of us, but in our flying club $6K is a reasonable number if you can fit in a 152, making it comparable to a decent used car. Certainly and issue but I wouldn't call it a barrier.

I personally like the "instructor yelled at her" barrier. This is something all instructors can learn from and DO SOMETHING ABOUT.

Joe

 

[AuntPeggy]

Two of my largest barriers were not mentioned:
1) I could not see properly over the glare shield and my feet would not reach the rudders. It took several instructors before one finally noticed.

2) Airsickness.

Others listed:
3) Macho instructor attitude vs. permissive, timid student. This could be the Mars/Venus thing.
4) Flight school outright hostile to female students.



The other barriers mentioned were either no factor or were the same for me as for a male:

• Lack of money: no factor
• Instructor interruptus: same as for a male (I had 13 instructors)
• Lack of female mentors: no factor
• Fear of flying: no factor
• Lack knowledge of mechanical systems: no factor
• Lack of map reading: no factor
• No female role models: no factor
• No emotional support: no factor

 

[murphey]

It's unfortunate that the sample size is so small and probably not random. This makes the data less than compelling.
Joe

Very true, but understanding how the sample was obtained provides some insight. A blanket email went out asking for volunteers to answer a survey. (Both men & women were invited). I agree that a larger sample could provide better observation. I don't know what mailing lists the researcher used. In my aviation-related volunteer positions I have legitimate access to a very large population (the FAA database doesn't count because email addresses are not included). I haven't done surveys in a very long time, but assuming 5% respond, that means about 5000 requests were made by email. I don't know what the response rate was but if you like, I'll go find out (I know the researcher).

I've been in contact with the researcher and we've been discussing (mostly) how the results have been presented and (slightly) what I think were not the best assumptions to make in the survey. For example, the boundary for flight hours (CFIs) is 5000 seems questionable. I would have liked to see a bit more granularity (e.g. 250, 500 then 1000 hour increments). I haven't heard back from the researcher on this topic yet but I do have agreement on the presentation issues.

 

[steingar]

I would be more interested in the opinions of those who have the wherewithal (read money and opportunity) to fly and chose not to. A more interesting sample.

Like I said, we keep doing the same things as we've always done (which we seem determined to do) and our numbers will dwindle to nothing. I would happily fly an LSA. many are faster than my airplane.

 

[maddog52]

The powers that be want to force us all into LSA's. .......

Based on what data? There is actually quite a bit of hostility and misunderstanding comming from some of the "Powers that be". I have to confront it on a regular basis.

I've flown flown with four female students in the last two years and have at least two others that use our LSAs. None would be pilots without Sport Pilot and LSAs.

And having riden motorcycles and flown LSAs, I'd much rather fly an LSA!

 

[BiffJ]

Wow,
thats an interesting read.....
It appears to me that the deterrents to completing the training apply equally to both men and women and the solutions suggested are pretty sad in some cases and in others apply to both men and women once again.

In my opinion more women would complete the training and continue in flight professions if there were more women interested in doing so. The silly reasons given for the women giving up are the same reasons men give up. Determination and the don't give up attitude are what makes a good pilot and the main reasons behind those who complete the training successfully. Celebrating smaller milestones is a sad way to make someone stay in the system....kind of like giving everyone trophies just for showing up. It makes the real milestones seem worthless....

In the flight school I got my ticket in there were a pretty good percentage of women flying and a large percentage of them finished up. About the same numbers as the men. The women had the same instructors we did and faced the same challenges. I went through 3 instructors due to job changes. One of my instructors had a habit of yelling at me or smacking me when I screwed up. (tandem seating isn't good for the student, it allows the instructor to smack you good from behind). The same instructor had a number of female students and also had an excellent rate of successful completions. He yelled at them too. I don't know if he smacked the backs of their heads though. The school owner was a woman and had a way of yelling that would terrify anyone. I flew with her once and that was my scariest flight. There was also a former WAAF pilot who instructed there. She did my pre-checkride check and while there was no screaming or smacking she also put the fear into me.....
The point of all this is, anyone who is truly interested in pursuing a career or just a hobby has to have the interest to succeed. Women have no reason not to be just as successful or unsuccessful as men. Force feeding the system helps no one. The best solution is to help more women (and men) realize the fact that they can succeed without crutches or silly gold stars for attendance.

just my opinions of course.

Frank

 

[bluee]

I would be more interested in the opinions of those who have the wherewithal (read money and opportunity) to fly and chose not to. A more interesting sample.

.

Bad instructors are a problem, more for women, because women wont take lessons from someone unless they feel at least comfortable. Airplanes are small; sitting next to someone you don't like just doesn't work for most women. I have had bad instructors and left because of them. I liked the instructor I finished my checkride with, but he left, and the new instructor at that school is creepy and I will never get into an airplane with him. He makes my skin crawl and every time I see him I want to get away as fast as possible.

 

[Areeda]

Very true, but understanding how the sample was obtained provides some insight. ....

I hope I didn't imply that I don't appreciate the work or that I didn't learn something from it.

It's just the statistical instinct in me kept saying "I'll bet p is huge on that one."

Joe

 

[Tristar]

If there aren't women in aviation, these are some funny looking men!

If any CFIs need encouragement for potential lady pilots, show them this picture.

 

[Danos]

Bad instructors are a problem, more for women, because women wont take lessons from someone unless they feel at least comfortable. Airplanes are small; sitting next to someone you don't like just doesn't work for most women. I have had bad instructors and left because of them. I liked the instructor I finished my checkride with, but he left, and the new instructor at that school is creepy and I will never get into an airplane with him. He makes my skin crawl and every time I see him I want to get away as fast as possible.

I'm just as prone to tell an instructor I don't like to stick it. As long as I'm the one spending money on such an expensive endeavor, I wont waste it or my time on someone I'm not compatible with. However, most of the time, if I left a school it was because they were trying to rip me off in one way or another. I only dropped one instructor due to personality conflict.

 

[BillTIZ]

I've learned.. when teaching teenaged boys or men.. you have to hold them back.. they are very.. I can do this... oh yea? Show me.

And with the ladies... you have to prove to them that they can do it and kick them out of the nest... they are not sure they can do it.

But once the ladies get past that first solo... watch out!

 

[murphey]

Many if not most of those suggestions could benefit pilots of both genders. As it is we're fast becoming a threatened species. I suspect things need to be done differently than they have been done before if aviation is to remain a viable enterprise for any but the most wealthy.

Anyone here a fan of Alton Brown (Good Eats on the Food Channel). He flys out of a small airport near ATL. He recounted his student days in a great interview at

http://www.goldseallive.com/archives.aspx (mp3 or listen at the computer. Also available on iTunes)

One of his comments concerns the poor approach to flight training in this country. Very little about cooking. If you've watched the show you have a good idea of his personality, which comes thru in the podcast.

 

[murphey]

I hope I didn't imply that I don't appreciate the work or that I didn't learn something from it.

It's just the statistical instinct in me kept saying "I'll bet p is huge on that one."

Joe

Here's some insight from the researcher...

The goal was 100 female drop outs, pilots-in-training, low time GA women pilots and 50 Flight Instructors. We ended up with 296 which is double what we planned. So, I have no idea what the response rate was because the plan was just to keep on plugging until we had enough interviews/surveys. I snail mailed about 200 post cards. Oh, I also got some names and mailing address from the 99s magazine of women who just soloed. Then, went to the FAA database for their home mailing addresses. But, that was probably only about 25 of the 200. Most were flight schools.

The respondents were all volunteers. In addition to making the announcement in the various aviation outlets, several University and Community college programs were asked to let their students and alumni know of the research project. Also, Cessna Pilot Training Centers and on-airport FBO based flight schools were contacted by email and snail mail announcing the project and asking them to let their students know.

The original intent of the research was to focus on 100 drop-outs, current pilots-in-training and very low time female GA pilots. And, also, 50 flight instructors of either gender. Well, in March & April 2010 only about 15+ in each category were needed to "git er done." Well, the announcment went "viral" on all the messages boards, blogs, etc and all these accomplished GA females wanted to "share." So, I called the Wolf Aviation Fund and said what should I do? They said "go for it." I had so many responses I went through two remote batteries for my telephone receiver March through May.

 

[murphey]

Two of my largest barriers were not mentioned:
1) I could not see properly over the glare shield and my feet would not reach the rudders. It took several instructors before one finally noticed.

Actually this was one of the "Barriers in the cockpit physical environment", too short for seat/pedals.

Not being able to see over the glareshield is probably the main reason that once I flew a cherokee, I never went back to the C172.

 

[bluee]

Actually this was one of the "Barriers in the cockpit physical environment", too short for seat/pedals.

Not being able to see over the glareshield is probably the main reason that once I flew a cherokee, I never went back to the C172.

I did most of my training in a Cherokee, but that's gone now, so now I fly Cessnas. I figured out that I like the 172 that has an adjustable seat (adjusts up) so I can see better. I don't like the one that does not have this feature. It may seem a minor thing, but that adjustable seat makes a big difference.

 

[Everskyward]

If any CFIs need encouragement for potential lady pilots, show them this picture.

Or show them this video...


I was amazed how many versions of this are on YouTube but this was the cutest! I loved this song when I was young. I guess I'm dating myself. It's from "Annie Get Your Gun".

 

[Tristar]

Haha! That's cute mari!!

 

[lprellwitz]

Interesting study and findings, although it does seem to me that many of the reasons for not completing flight training that are listed here are gender-neutral: money, equipment, mentors, interest, passion are all necessary.

I would hope that comfort with an instructor would be a prime prerequisuite for anyone who chooses to get way up off the ground in a (relatively speaking) small machine, with the skills of that instructor being your primary way of getting back on terra firma safely (at least in the beginning).

(To the poster who spoke of getting smacked by an instructor during training, wow.... interesting training method. Wonder how many times the instructor got an instinctive, reactionary backhand from someone for doing that...)

Seeing other women pilots was key for me, just to know that it was possible to do, and to keep going through rough spots. Having said that, there's only so much a mentor can do; without having a strong underlying desire to do it yourself, you won't finish, period.

I found the map reading and orienteering results of interest; personally, I like maps; ask Grant how many charts I like to have with me on cross-country flights...... but I wonder, if you asked male PITs the same thing, would you get the same answer, or is there still a reluctance to admit needing to ask for directions?

Not sure what to think about celebrating small successes.... On one hand, it can be a source of encouragement, but is some of that generational? I grew up with gold stars and trophies being based on exceptional performance; when I look around today, the mood does seem to have shifted to getting something just for being there.... it would be curious to see if more seasoned pilot candidates see that as a key issue.

 

[EdFred]

There must be a completely different thought process between men and women.

I started flying because I wanted to. I didn't know anyone else who did. I'd never even been inside a GA aircraft prior to my intro flight. Encouragement? What's that? A mentor? What's that? A support system? What's that? A difficult instructor? Gee never had any of those in high school or college. I was the customer there too. I know it's going to come across as sexist, but is a woman becoming a pilot like going to the public bathroom - you always have to do it in groups?

 

[Everskyward]

Actually this was one of the "Barriers in the cockpit physical environment", too short for seat/pedals.

Not being able to see over the glareshield is probably the main reason that once I flew a cherokee, I never went back to the C172.

I am on the short side and have a fair amount of time in single engine Cessnas. I always had to use a cushion, sometimes two, behind and beneath. I think that the older model airplanes are worse in this respect as they didn't realize there would be a market for women who tend to be shorter. Strangely, though, this only has been a problem for me in small airplanes. I have never flown a multiengine airplane of any kind where I had to use a cushion, granted I have only flown a limited number of them, and I'm sure there are some where a cushion would be needed. But how big a barrier is bringing a cushion along? I was teased about it sometimes but so what?

I have a problem with a lot of these studies in that they try to pigeonhole women and men. There are obviously personality characteristics which women have in more abundance than men. I think these are both inborn and caused by socialization. However, everyone has a combination of these characteristics and I think they are spread out on a continuum, not clustered to one side or another. Whenever I read "women are like this and men are like that" conclusions I wonder if I missed out when they handed out the female characteristics because I am somewhere in the middle. For instance, I have been good with maps since childhood. I also never had much desire to share flying with any of my friends or relatives when I first started out even though they were curious and inquisitive about it, and not in a negative way. I kept it pretty private because it was something I was doing for myself. Actually I still don't talk much or at all about flying to non-pilots unless they bring it up first. I also can't say ever had any role models, male or female, but I never wished for one either. I could name more things in the study's conclusions which don't speak to me but I am not good at talking about feelings. In any case I think that pigeonholing people does as much a disservice to as many men as women. I'm sure that some men read these things as I do and think, "really?"

I think that many results of these studies can be applied to both genders anyway. Cost is a factor in both cases and yelling, and especially hitting, is not a good technique to use on anyone.

 

[steingar]

There must be a completely different thought process between men and women.

From this statement alone one can tell you've had few long-term relationships with members of the opposite sex.

 

[Tom-D]

My first impression as to teaching women to fly is, don't they get an attitude.

 

[EdFred]

From this statement alone one can tell you've had few long-term relationships with members of the opposite sex.

They are allergic to me.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

My wife won't even get in the airplane...

 

[Tristar]

I know what you mean Mari! I sat in your old Learjet, that thing was tight! From my own experience, I fit better in the King Air than I did in the 182. You just learn how to compensate. I used to use a cushion in the 172, I got lazy about remembering to bring it which worked out for the best. You just find that pitch attitude that works best and go from there which is the same idea of transitioning no matter who you are! I feel more sorry for the people who are too large for some aircraft. You can do something about being small, it's hard to fix being too big.

 

[gprellwitz]

Anyone here a fan of Alton Brown (Good Eats on the Food Channel). He flys out of a small airport near ATL. He recounted his student days in a great interview at

http://www.goldseallive.com/archives.aspx (mp3 or listen at the computer. Also available on iTunes)

One of his comments concerns the poor approach to flight training in this country. Very little about cooking. If you've watched the show you have a good idea of his personality, which comes thru in the podcast.

Here he is having just gotten his private pilot certificate.

 

[jnmeade]

Do people assume that because not many women fly, they are prejudiced against? There are any number of jobs where the gender factor is heavily biased one way or the other. Working in a hog confinement facility. Driving an over-the-road tractor trailer. Working on a fishing boat. Operating a day care center. Running a quilt or sewing shop. Maybe some people like to do one thing and others like to do something else. Maybe it has more to do with the person's preferences than with impediment. I'm not saying there are no impediments. What I am saying is there may be factors IN ADDITION TO any real or perceived impediments that cause some genders to do one thing in preference to something else. We see the same hand wringing when it comes to academic pursuits. At some point in time we might want to ask the woman if she really wants to be a pilot or has other interests and accept her choice.
I've taught a number of women pilots, including one daughter to her private, one daughter to her private with instrument, and a woman to her private and instrument. I don't think I treated them any differently than I treated men. One daughter was about an average pilot. Another was better than average. The third woman was a natural stick, one of the best pilots I've flown with and passionate about aviation. Two of the women worked in aviation related fields (not flying) for at least a while, including Rockwell Collins, NASA and NTSB. The two daughters feel a pilot license was helpful (subjective judgement) in getting into Wellesley and Carnegie Melon. I more or less made my daughters get their license, which they did as juniors in high school. The third woman was a PhD candidate. Her father was a former USAR pilot and retired United captain. So, all three had aviation in their family (father).
My bottom line is aviation should be welcoming and supportive of all prospective pilots but not get wrapped in angst if there are non-institutional reasons for an imbalance.

 

[Areeda]

Jim, I agree with you on your main point, but I didn't get the impression the study was assuming any bias. Rather I think it is looking at reasons for the imbalance.

 

[silver-eagle]

It IS a male dominated hobby and profession. I'd say the main reason for women dropping out is a bad instructor. I have a woman friend who had 3 different instructors tell her straight out.... "You'll never be a pilot.". One of which was the school's chief pilot. My advice to her was go find another school! Three months later, she took her checkride and passed.
All the rest of it is just flak. We all have the same issues. Mine was money and time. In building a career and family, I had little of either. I stayed with it though and flew when I could. I had (mostly) good instructors.
And what is a good instructor? One who can adjust their teaching style to fit the student. Same thing with any instructor and school. Anyone teaching "from the book" and can't/won't adapt is the problem.
It also requires a good student. The stu has to be receptive to the instructor, new situations, and new ideas. We all have good days and bad. It's a matter of knowing where we are and making the appropriate adjustments. Your success or failure is as much on you as any teacher you have.

 

[JOhnH]

But once the ladies get past that first solo... watch out!

After about 20 years of occasionally hearing me and my old college buddies talk about the fun times we had flying in college my wife finally said that she might like to take a lesson. I arranged it and after the first introductory flight, there was no holding her back. She started her lessons when she was 52 and got her ppl certificate when she was 53. The only factor that slowed her down was the weather. She started with virtually no mechanical experience or navigating experience and certainly no aviation experience, but she immersed herself in her books and notes during any and all of her spare time and has become an outstanding pilot. She can't wait to start on her IFR training.

I don't know if she is typical or a special case. I do know that she is smarter than most men I know, (including me, and I consider us Ga Tech graduates smarter than the average bear).

 

[AuntPeggy]

Last evening I met a new student pilot who is an educational research expert in her 50s. It will be interesting to see how well she is doing in two simultaneous endeavors: 1) learning to fly, and 2) finding a CFI who adheres to the teaching concepts she embodies. I believe that teaching this woman to fly and observing the results would help quite a bit in overcoming the difficulty in teaching older students to fly and possibly bridge the gap to teaching women to fly. She honestly believes that (at her age) she can learn to fly as well and quickly and easily as a 20-something male (Ted, for example). In other words, in 40 hours.

 

[Areeda]

Last evening I met a new student pilot who is an educational research expert in her 50s. It will be interesting to see how well she is doing in two simultaneous endeavors: 1) learning to fly, and 2) finding a CFI who adheres to the teaching concepts she embodies. I believe that teaching this woman to fly and observing the results would help quite a bit in overcoming the difficulty in teaching older students to fly and possibly bridge the gap to teaching women to fly. She honestly believes that (at her age) she can learn to fly as well and quickly and easily as a 20-something male (Ted, for example). In other words, in 40 hours.

Peg,
Please introduce her to the forums. It would be great to hear her opinion on teaching methods used in aviation.

And I believe almost everybody starts out thinking/hoping/believing they can do it in 40 hrs. Some are even able to do it.

Joe

 

[PhyliseBanner]

Greetings, all.

I'm the student pilot that Aunt Peggy is referring to, although I'm only 48 at the moment (in my 50s? do I look that old? oy!).

I'm excited about my training, and do believe that older adults learn just as fast as the younger ones, it's just a different approach to learning.

Am looking forward to learning from folks here, and from my instructor, of course.

I've just started a blog titled "She Learns to Fly". You can follow my adventure at shelearnstofly.wordpress.com. I'm hoping to post there after every flight and every lesson. And maybe every now and again when I learn something new while studying or exploring!

Happy landings!

 

[Everskyward]

Greetings, all.

I'm the student pilot that Aunt Peggy is referring to, although I'm only 48 at the moment (in my 50s? do I look that old? oy!).

I'm excited about my training, and do believe that older adults learn just as fast as the younger ones, it's just a different approach to learning.

Am looking forward to learning from folks here, and from my instructor, of course.

I've just started a blog titled "She Learns to Fly". You can follow my adventure at shelearnstofly.wordpress.com. I'm hoping to post there after every flight and every lesson. And maybe every now and again when I learn something new while studying or exploring!

Happy landings!

Welcome Phylise! I'll be interested in hearing all about your experiences and impressions. I'm a little bit older than you but I started taking lessons when I was 19. My feeling is that it would be easier now, although that isn't the general consensus. I think that I could be more focused and able to take advantage of my previous life experiences, of which I didn't have many at 19.