MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Seems like “left to right, top to bottom” or something similar would hit gear and carb heat at some point.
Teaching Flow vs. Checklist in GA
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danhagan
En-Route
My near misses in and around the pattern have been with pilots that are "head down" and I'm facing the sun ... am guessing they may be using a checklist in the pattern, either that or Foreflight had something interesting for them to look at 
dmspilot
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But that's what flows are, at the airlines, and we want to emulate airline pilots right?
I think I've had several instructors over the years that "mention" flow...but don't recall anyone really pushing it like it seems the OP's instructor is doing. It was almost always mostly checklist used more like a to-do list.
Back when I flew a lot and was very familiar with the plane I rented all the time, I customized my checklist based on my own flow...really just using logic to do things in an order that made more sense and to get rid of much of the extraneous verbiage and bullet points found in most commercial checklists
Back when I flew a lot and was very familiar with the plane I rented all the time, I customized my checklist based on my own flow...really just using logic to do things in an order that made more sense and to get rid of much of the extraneous verbiage and bullet points found in most commercial checklists
David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
As others have mentioned, they're not mutually exclusive. A flow is how you do things at the time; a checklist is how you make sure you didn't miss anything afterwards.
If you use the checklist as a to do list instead, then there's nothing to check that you didn't skip an item on the checklist.
to me, that's the main difference between an airplane or phase-specific flow and a generic one. With a generic right/left/up/down flow, you are not concerned with whether the airplane has carb heat or a boost pump or landing gear. Just that a control or switch is in the flow pattern.
A type-specific flow would screw me up too. I have flown about 30 different make/models of singles and currently alternate among PA28s (fixed gear/prop, retract/constant speed, and one with switches on the overhead panel), a Diamond DA40/G1000, a Cessna 172 and 182, and a Mooney or two. I try to alternate among them on a fairly regular basis. I also periodically teach in a Cirrus and a Bonanza where I back up my client with my own flow. But I use pretty much the same flow for all with the only significant difference being the need to check an overhead panel in some of them. At the same time, my ultimate backup is my customize checklist which is designed to be extremely easy for me to use.
Kritchlow
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A checklist does not mirror a flow. There is much cross over, but far from identical.
A flow is not just a memorized checklist.
Doing a little research on using Flow and Checklists. Found an excellent example. Ryan is a bush pilot in PNG, flying a Kodiak.
Of special note, the checklist box he made, velcroed to the dash (switches don't connect to anything). Checklist take-off flip the switches UP, landing flip the switches DOWN.
It keeps his eyes outside the cockpit, while also allowing him to skip around a bit as needs dictate while still checking his progress on the checklist to completion.
Great vids. Very professional.
https://www.missionarybushpilot.com/checklistbox
Of special note, the checklist box he made, velcroed to the dash (switches don't connect to anything). Checklist take-off flip the switches UP, landing flip the switches DOWN.
It keeps his eyes outside the cockpit, while also allowing him to skip around a bit as needs dictate while still checking his progress on the checklist to completion.
Great vids. Very professional.
https://www.missionarybushpilot.com/checklistbox
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David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
Exactly. In many cases, a checklist describes the state that should exist after the flow is finished, not the steps it took to get there.
Challenged
Pattern Altitude
I'm going to troll you guys a bit: Are we taking about rental planes you aren't fully familiar with or pilot owned aircraft where you have lots of time in type? I don't think I've ever seen a pilot who has owned an airplane for a reasonable amount of time break out a checklist for any phase of flight. Are some of you really pulling out a checklist when it's time to descend from cruise?
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RobertGary1
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I don't think that was in question. the examiner will see you go through the checklist and check off the box. Using flow does not change that in any material way. When I'm giving company checkrides I see both.
-Robert
I know pilots who absolutely do.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Are you really suggesting that the goal is to do things differently in training and checking than you do otherwise?
sarangan
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Andrew, CFI-I
While that's not the goal, people do evolve after training. Primary student may need a step by step checklist. Others can skip obvious steps like "mast switch on" or "turn ignition key to start", or "taxi with minimal brakes" etc...
How about my favorite - to apply full power for takeoff.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ok…so are you suggesting that evolving to do something different in training and checking than what you do otherwise is a good thing?
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Hang 4
I would say yes. My start engine list is trimmed down a lot from what was on the checklist I used as a student. I don't have a "prime" check for example (still have a "primer locked" check at runup). But conversely, there are more checks that I do now. I have an IFR checklist that I use in the run up for example to make sure I've put in my code, flight plan loaded in the GPS, have my initial course and altitude set and frequencies correct. I used to do that using the clearance, and took off a couple of times still on 1200 from getting distracted. Now I've added a specific step at a later place to check.
So yes, some things that one uses a checklist for evolve and I suspect this is a good thing. Not sure it's really different though, just evolving to fit the need.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
you’re talking about something entirely different than the post I was responding to.
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sarangan
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Andrew, CFI-I
Most pilots aspire to become better with time. That's a good thing. The certificate is a license to learn. But I know that's not what you are asking. Regarding checklists, I modify mine every year, so, yes it has evolved over time. I add some things and delete some other things. As a student pilot, I had "Master switch on" on the checklist. I had "call clear" on the checklist. Those have been gone from my checklist for decades. That doesn't mean I don't do them.
I doubt he's suggesting that. There can be a difference between what you do and what you put in a checklist. Checklists can evolve without changing procedures (although that can be a good thing too as we learn from experience). I have removed "power...FULL" from my checklists. That doesn't mean I sit on the departure end of the runway waiting for the airplane to accelerate and take off all by itself. I just think it, multiplied by other items, is unnecessary surplus which detracts from efficient use.
IMO, the single biggest problem with checklists is over-inclusion of multiple redundant, obvious, and unnecessary things. It's what some people refer to as manufacturer "checklists written by lawyers" more concerned with protecting the company from liability than providing pilots with good operating procedures. Some are truly unusable. But even worse are many flight school checklists trying to be as inclusive as possible for the lowest common denominator renter. I'm convinced checklists like these are the No 1 reason for lack of checklist use by pilots.
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Hang 4
But I was responding to the one you quoted. And if I can quote you,
"When I quote a post, it creates context for my response. If you choose to ignore the context and misinterpret my post, that’s not my problem."
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Try including the original post that I responded to rather than just the one where I tried to clarify a response that didn’t address my question.
RobertGary1
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I flew an Aztec in which the ownership had a 3 page checklist for prelanding. Buried in there was a small item "gear down confirm". I can tell you that I often see students miss one checklist item. There is a great argument for checklists to be very short. You don't' see 3 page long prelanding checklists in the airlines and they have a NFP pilot to run it.
RobertGary1
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BTW: In my helicopter training I have yet to see a landing checklist. Nor have I in powered a parachutes. With no doors in either it would be easy for the checklist to depart the air vehicle. But how much of a checklist do you need to land a parachute?
-Robert
-Robert
I sometimes have those kinds of extras
Because I fly multiple aircraft with multiple equipment, I sometimes need help remembering how to set up this particular fuel flow monitor or that particular altitude preselect. But those are supplements - extra info pages after the main checklist intended as a preflight refresher, not part of the main checklists.
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Ari
I've missed things when using checklists that a flow would have caught and vice versa. I like flows enough that I designed the panel in my RV-14 by sitting in the fuselage with a mock-up panel. I spent hours chair flying from start to shutdown and every emergency I could think of, then moving switches around to make every checklist a smooth flow across the panel.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
It’s really nice when the switches are located to turn the checklist into a flow.
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Ari
The ideal form that I wanted was for the written checklist to be be nothing more than the labels on the switches from left to right across the panel. Basically like what @rhkennerly posted about above except with the actual switches on the plane. I got pretty close, too. I wish I could do that in every plane I fly.
bluesideup
Line Up and Wait
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bluesideup
Hi.
I do agree that most FBOs have their own Checklists, and I also agree that in most cases the Examiners may not care about it, as long as you cover all the necessary, either by Doing and or Telling. Depending on the level of the individual that they are dealing with, I've seen cases where they asked for the Owner's manual / POH as soon as one missed an item, or was not performed orderly, or was not emphasized sufficiently. Most of the problems are with the Vspeeds and Limitations, which many of the FBOs do not list accurately for different configurations.
As I've said before make sure you know what the expectations are and be prepared, Owner's manual / POH is the most acceptable document and be ready to know where it is and how to use it.
Silvaire
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The method I learned was basically a flow I guess, all in the head. Then pick up the checklist and you can easily just pan through it - yup, did that, yup, yup, yup, whoops, missed that one, check, yup, yup, yup... done. The two don't even have to be in the same order, you know as soon as you glance at the item whether or not you did it.
it was nailed in during training for me, the school i went to had a gear up landing on solo due to a students incompletion of a landing checklists so checklists in general and especially LANDING checklists became primary on solo and checkride prep, as well as all the checkride instructors giving the instant fail if you did not physically look over any checklist prior to its related critical phase. its common sense and now simple habit for every flight for me
I fully agree that generic flows is the way forward.
I would really appreciate if you could describe your generic flow that is used across those different types. Surely it is not simply "Left to right" there would need to be a "path" around all the different switches and nobs right?
Best regards from a fellow Flow-nerd
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David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
Procedure = what to do.
Flow = how you actually do it.
Checklist = where you verify that you did it right.
It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
Flow = how you actually do it.
Checklist = where you verify that you did it right.
It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
Mine really is just a simple up-down, left right. I use it in. Cessnas, Pipers, Bonanzas, Cirruses, Diamonds, Mooneys, all 30 makes/models I have time in. Only real variation is airplanes with overhead switches where it is left-right on the top, top-down the middle, then right-left on the bottom. "Is this in the position it should be in? "combined with looking at the applicable associated gauge or indicator. I've done a couple of graphics for training purposes. I haven't come across any yet where that doesn't work with a little thought.I fully agree that generic flows is the way forward.
I would really appreciate if you could describe your generic flow that is used across those different types. Surely it is not simply "Left to right" there would need to be a "path" around all the different switches and nobs right?
Best regards from a fellow Flow-nerd
dell30rb
Final Approach
In GA, as a CFI I teach all students a flow for two things. Before landing at the key position in the pattern or at the FAF when on an instrument approach, and the engine restart procedure as part of the ABCD engine failure memorized checklist. These are pretty simple, accomplished at times when pilots (especially new ones) do not have time to be fiddling around with a paper checklist. I want this stuff done quickly without a paper checklist.
Everything else, the paper checklist comes out but how they accomplish it is up to them, just as long as the checklist is at least used to verify what was done.
Everything else, the paper checklist comes out but how they accomplish it is up to them, just as long as the checklist is at least used to verify what was done.
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Albany Tom
I like flows specifically because I rent different planes, variants of pa-28. Some have constant speed props, some don't, most have carbs, one doesn't, etc. For takeoff, I set trim as part of preflight, and check before engine start. Then I get out my own sheet of all the v-speeds, and my approach speeds, specific to each plane. Then I run through all the checklists, which are different for each plane. The flows kick in after I've done the runup, to verify everything. All those swiches good, left to right? Yep. All those knobs good, left to right? Yep. Move down to flaps and trim - good? Yep. Little gauges ok, left to right? (engine, fuel) Yep. Six round gauges good? Yep. Then and only then do I pull out onto the runway. For first flight of the day, or short field, hold brakes, full power, check engine gauges and tach, then I'm rolling and just looking at airspeed and outside. The v-speeds are a little different, but other than that the takeoff for any pa-28 is the same for me until I get to end of usable runway. For landing prep, same thing, except I just run flows. Other than the gear for the Arrow, and full forward on the prop for the constant speed props on final, they're all the same. Flows are my double check before takeoff, and my standard procedure for landings, plus my own version of GUMPS.
I kind of learned the procedure like this: checklists have you check everything, and are required. flows are the double check that you don't screw something up important that could otherwise kill you. In a pa-28, short field, vfr, those things include but are not limited to flaps, trim, mixture, prop, carb heat, fuel pump, primer.
I kind of learned the procedure like this: checklists have you check everything, and are required. flows are the double check that you don't screw something up important that could otherwise kill you. In a pa-28, short field, vfr, those things include but are not limited to flaps, trim, mixture, prop, carb heat, fuel pump, primer.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I'm gonna be honest. I haven't pulled out the checklist in 10 years.
Everything is pretty much in 1 line on the panel.
So it's either left to right, or right to left depending on what I'm doing.
Only thing not in line is the overhead trim.
Everything is pretty much in 1 line on the panel.
So it's either left to right, or right to left depending on what I'm doing.
Only thing not in line is the overhead trim.
So if the flow is the same, do you start at the bottom between the seats (what I typically do in Cessnas) and go:
Fuel selector - fuel shut off valve - (trim) mixture and the? to the left towards prop/enginge levers and then switches, or do you continue up from mixture to the avionics stack, and then across left to right?
I would greatly appreciate details about how you actually do it, since I struggle a bit on how to do it generic especially across cessnas and Pipers, where the fuel selector is located to the left (starting with fuel selector makes sense i think)
If you could elaborate on how you actually move the hand/eyes, you make my day here in cold rainy Scandinavia ;-)
hindsight2020
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hindsight2020
When I retire from relying on flying to pay bills, I'll tell you the truth. Until then *adjusts the lighting on the grainy hostage video* : " i obediently. Use. The checklist all the time. I am happy and, well treated. The FAA is great success".