Teaching Complex Aircraft Pattern Work

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RhinoDrvr

Pre-takeoff checklist
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RhinoDrvr
All,

I am currently training for my CFI Initial in a C172RG and have a technique question to run by everyone:

When flying the traffic pattern in a complex aircraft, do you teach to raise and lower the landing gear every lap in the pattern? I am inclined to teach lowering the gear when entering the pattern and then leaving it down for the duration of the touch and goes, minimizing configuration changes, and wear on the gear system. (I believe the Cessna POH recommends this as well)

The catch is that you've got to hammer home the importance of a landing checklist on EVERY lap in the pattern to confirm that the wheels are indeed down since you're not actively moving the handle.

What do you guys think/do?
 
I was taught to raise the gear for closed pattern work - point being get used to raising and lowering the gear as part of the checklist for every takeoff and landing. I don't do closed pattern work in my own plane but if did I would have to raise the gear in the pattern if I did just to reach pattern altitude.
 
"Positive rate, gear up." "Three green (or whatever)" at least twice when on final. I'm trying to teach procedures, not protect the gear extension system.

Bob Gardner
 
I was taught to leave the gear down for pattern work,but while doing the before landing check to touch the gear handle to ensure the gear is down. Saves a lot of wear and Tera on the gear.
 
bobmrg said:
"Positive rate, gear up." "Three green (or whatever)" at least twice when on final. I'm trying to teach procedures, not protect the gear extension system.

Bob Gardner
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100% agree with this....
 
bobmrg said:
"Positive rate, gear up." "Three green (or whatever)" at least twice when on final. I'm trying to teach procedures, not protect the gear extension system.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
bobmrg said:
"Positive rate, gear up." "Three green (or whatever)" at least twice when on final. I'm trying to teach procedures, not protect the gear extension system.
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree 100%. In addition, climb performance on some aircraft is substantially better with gear up, and that extra altitude can be very useful in certain emergency situations.

Obviously the performance benefit varies with type, but why use a complex airplane if your not going to learn complex procedures?

I don't have RG Cessna time and don't like arguing against a POH recommendation, but my feeling is that if a complex airplane can't cycle its gear with the frequency needed to be a good trainer, it shouldn't be used as a trainer.
 
As an owner I understand there are mx costs associated with repeated gear cycles. HOWEVER, that being said I always put the gear up/down in the pattern. Always. Good habit because then you won't forget to put it down one day. I did my IR, CPL and CFI in the airplane so it's had plenty of ups/downs the last couple years and she's holdin' up just fine.
 
Primacy of training is big, teach them to get the gear up so if/when they step up to bigger planes that dictate raising the gear each take off they do it.
 
bobmrg said:
"Positive rate, gear up." "Three green (or whatever)" at least twice when on final. I'm trying to teach procedures, not protect the gear extension system.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

That is the way I was trained, gear comes up every takeoff.
 
RhinoDrvr said:
All,

I am currently training for my CFI Initial in a C172RG and have a technique question to run by everyone:

When flying the traffic pattern in a complex aircraft, do you teach to raise and lower the landing gear every lap in the pattern? I am inclined to teach lowering the gear when entering the pattern and then leaving it down for the duration of the touch and goes, minimizing configuration changes, and wear on the gear system. (I believe the Cessna POH recommends this as well)

The catch is that you've got to hammer home the importance of a landing checklist on EVERY lap in the pattern to confirm that the wheels are indeed down since you're not actively moving the handle.

What do you guys think/do?
Click to expand...


Absolutely.

Not only no, but no ****ing way.
 
I totally agree with raising and lowering the gear. I don't want to loose touch with changes that occur when the gear is raised or lowered. That all goes along with the checklist to making sure I am not one of those pilot that has forgot the gear.

On a slightly different but related note, when flying the pattern in a complex aircraft, do you perform a touch and go, stop and go or full stop landing?
 
tmyers said:
On a slightly different but related note, when flying the pattern in a complex aircraft, do you perform a touch and go, stop and go or full stop landing?
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I've done all, and I have no problem doing T&G's with the Mooney as long as the runway is of sufficient length to re-configure trim and flap settings, open cowl flaps, etc.
 
Thanks for your replies.

Looks like the overwhelming majority of you seem to agree with cycling the gear on every lap in the pattern; completely different mindset than my military training where I learned all my complex procedures.

To everyone who spoke to raising and lowering the gear as insurance against a gear up landing...isn't the landing checklist supposed to ensure that the gear is down?
 
RhinoDrvr said:
Thanks for your replies.

Looks like the overwhelming majority of you seem to agree with cycling the gear on every lap in the pattern; completely different mindset than my military training where I learned all my complex procedures.

To everyone who spoke to raising and lowering the gear as insurance against a gear up landing...isn't the landing checklist supposed to ensure that the gear is down?
Click to expand...

Read up on the Law of Primacy.
 
If you think the maintenance costs of cycling the gear is expensive, try forgetting it once.
 
I leave the gear down for closed traffic. Wear and tear is part of it but I'm never entering an enroute profile with the speeds associated with that so there's no point in bringing it up and down. I wouldn't open and close my engine cowl flap either. I treat the pattern as nothing more than a departure and landing configuration.

Procedures should have a purpose, not just going through the motions because of rote memory. It's not hard to do a before landing check, physically touch the gear handle that's already down, look at the lights and say "three in the green."
 
Not a CFI, but I was taught the following (and do it to this day) -

No remaining usable runway, gear up
Mid-field downwind - gear down. Check - three green.
Turn base - check - three green
Turn final - check - three green
Short final - check - three green

My CFI hadn't ever had a gear up landing and he wasn't planning on starting. So far, I haven't either

Now, we did fly back to the airport with the gear down once. It didn't go down, we ran the emergency checklist and found the popped CB. Reset, the gear went down and we went home. Let the mechanic find out why, we weren't going to mess with it in the air once we had the gear down. Why did the CB pop? I never heard, but never had that problem with that plane again. And that was 11 years ago.
 
1. You should raise and lower the gear each lap. It helps build good habits for the pilots you're flying with.
2.Consider doing full stop, taxi backs with your students in the RG. Touch and Goes in a retract add alot of unnecessary risk for someone new to complex airplanes.
 
tmyers said:
On a slightly different but related note, when flying the pattern in a complex aircraft, do you perform a touch and go, stop and go or full stop landing?
Click to expand...

I'll only do touch and goes in a complex if I have a CFI on board keeping an eye on things/helping. But generally I'm not out doing them for fun anyway.

I'm also in the fly exactly the same doing pattern work as normal camp. If I'm doing pattern work at least part of the reason is to practice doing all those configuration changes but in a condensed period of time, and it's also a great time for the CFI to pull simulated gear failures, etc.
 
tmyers said:
On a slightly different but related note, when flying the pattern in a complex aircraft, do you perform a touch and go, stop and go or full stop landing?
Click to expand...

Only if I have manual flaps. I don't do TnGs with them newfangled 'lectric flaps. (Mostly because they are too slow to retract, and the planes I've flown with electric flaps always seem to require a partial flap takeoff.)
 
RhinoDrvr said:
; completely different mindset than my military training where I learned all my complex procedures.
Click to expand...

I'm curious what you trained in. I do a lot of checkout for current and former USAF and USN pilots (including several UPT IPs) and none has ever even suggested not cycling the gear. Many high performance military trainers can overspeed the gear easily...
 
TUPilot said:
I'm curious what you trained in. I do a lot of checkout for current and former USAF and USN pilots (including several UPT IPs) and none has ever even suggested not cycling the gear. Many high performance military trainers can overspeed the gear easily...
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T-6B / T-45C / F-18F

Gear speeds were 150/200/250 respectively. Most gear overspeeds I've seen were on takeoff (in the jets) or during a no flap or emergency approach, vice just during a normal bounce session in the pattern.

I'm fairly certain that the gear down in the pattern is a Navy/Marine technique, but it seems to me that teaching the habit pattern of checklist usage (and double checking the gear/flaps on final) is more important than teaching ALWAYS MOVE THE HANDLE without thinking about it. You don't see Navy airplanes routinely landing gear up, and this technique is taught since day 1 in primary...where they do touch and goes in complex airplanes.

For all those who are saying to raise the gear out of habit on takeoff...what happens when you get a blown tire? Potentially raise the gear out of habit and jam it up. I feel that all things should have a procedure/thought process behind them, and we should train to a procedure, not a rote habit of moving controls without thinking about why.
 
Speaking of the law of primacy...and repetition...
We teach a rote set of knee-jerk responses so that the body will auto-react so the brain can analyze ...to confirm and/or modify the rote procedure.

In other words, the goal of training is to establish a firm set of primary responses, then move on to the understanding and correlation by introducing deviations from these rote habits to cause actual thinking and application.

Most initial complex training is short enough that the student never gets beyond rote enough to pass a checkride .

But when I do have a student who wants to go beyond rote proficiency, and after becoming well set in rotely handling gear, wing and cool flaps in each pattern lap, I like to leave the gear down for a couple or so laps to see performance, feel, etc.

Break it up some.
 
I did my complex checkout in a Debonair. The flap and gear levers look exactly the same, are close to each other, and aren't in a highly visible spot on the panel. After landing it was "don't touch the flaps until we're clear and you can think about it" so we always did full stop taxi backs.
 
RhinoDrvr said:
Thanks for your replies.

Looks like the overwhelming majority of you seem to agree with cycling the gear on every lap in the pattern; completely different mindset than my military training where I learned all my complex procedures.

To everyone who spoke to raising and lowering the gear as insurance against a gear up landing...isn't the landing checklist supposed to ensure that the gear is down?
Click to expand...

I am in the retract and extend each circuit camp as well. As an instructor I have been able to distract about 50% of the pilots I have trained in complex aircraft to the point that they would have landed gear up if I had not intervened. Nothing cements the "it can happen to me" attitude better than having the instructor keep you from doing it.

Brian
 
Sac Arrow said:
I did my complex checkout in a Debonair. The flap and gear levers look exactly the same, are close to each other, and aren't in a highly visible spot on the panel. After landing it was "don't touch the flaps until we're clear and you can think about it" so we always did full stop taxi backs.
Click to expand...

This makes a lot of sense to me, and I see it's point as a make/model specific procedure. But to then apply the blanket statement "Never do touch and goes in a complex airplane" is a leap that I'm not willing to take.
 
brcase said:
I am in the retract and extend each circuit camp as well. As an instructor I have been able to distract about 50% of the pilots I have trained in complex aircraft to the point that they would have landed gear up if I had not intervened. Nothing cements the "it can happen to me" attitude better than having the instructor keep you from doing it.

Brian
Click to expand...

Why can't you teach that same lesson entering the traffic pattern?
 
I wouldn't recommend leaving the gear down. Train like you fly and fly like you train.

Also, I don't get too nuts with the three green thing. I run the checklist once and take another peek over the fence.
 
I don't think cycling the gear up and down in the pattern will have anything to do with preventing a gear up landing. Gear up landings occur because people completely skip the checklist, there was an interruption in the checklist because of a distraction, or they're simply doing lip service to the checklist.

Rote memory and law of exercise only go so far. Using a checklist and configuring the aircraft for the particular mode of flight is far better. Personally I use the call out and response method just like we do at work as a crew. I just verbalize it to myself and physically touch what I'm talking about.
 
What's a student doing in a closed pattern in an RG plane if not practicing procedures? Leaving the gear down is cheating the student IMO.
 
jsstevens said:
If you think the maintenance costs of cycling the gear is expensive, try forgetting it once.
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Bingo.

The CAF outfit I used to belong to in San Diego landed our SNJ gear up at Ramona because they had been messing with the routine during touch and goes.
 
dmspilot said:
What page?
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In AMPLIFIED PROCEDURES section under BEFORE LANDING

"In view of the relatively low drag of the extended landing gear and the high allowable gear operating speed (140 KIAS), the landing gear should be extended before entering the traffic pattern. This practice will allow more time to confirm that the landing gear is down and locked. As a further precaution, leave the landing gear extended in go-around procedures or traffic patterns for touch-and-go landings. "


Just to clarify my position, I don't think that the gear shouldn't be cycled just because of mx concerns. I think that it can be left down, because teaching a student to move a switch isn't the point of training. The point of training is to emphasize the checklist and procedural requirements of aircraft with more equipment. This means ensuring that the gear is down before each and every landing whether the switch is moved or not. Everyone talks about the habit pattern of moving the gear lever down. How about the habit pattern of running the landing checklist abeam the numbers? If we teach that habit, then the position of the lever is inconsequential.
 
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Skylane81E said:
Primacy of training is big, teach them to get the gear up so if/when they step up to bigger planes that dictate raising the gear each take off they do it.
Click to expand...

This is it. Positive rate, gear up; clear of obstacles, flaps up.

I do reduce power significantly on crosswind to not blow through pattern altitude and keep speed reasonable. This puts me on downwind similar to normal pattern entry. Gear goes down abeam intended point of landing to start the descent.

There's no reason to learn the incorrect methods. You need to establish habits in your students correctly.

Another important point is GUMPS check on base and again on final. I touch the switch to verify the Down position, check the green light to confirm Gear Down, and on final point at the mechanical indicator on the floor to assure that it is also green. Don't want an electrical glitch to total my plane!
 
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RhinoDrvr said:
In AMPLIFIED PROCEDURES section under BEFORE LANDING

"In view of the relatively low drag of the extended landing gear and the high allowable gear operating speed (140 KIAS), the landing gear should be extended before entering the traffic pattern. This practice will allow more time to confirm that the landing gear is down and locked. As a further precaution, leave the landing gear extended in go-around procedures or traffic patterns for touch-and-go landings. "


Just to clarify my position, I don't think that the gear shouldn't be cycled just because of mx concerns. I think that it can be left down, because teaching a student to move a switch isn't the point of training. The point of training is to emphasize the checklist and procedural requirements of aircraft with more equipment. This means ensuring that the gear is down before each and every landing whether the switch is moved or not. Everyone talks about the habit pattern of moving the gear lever down. How about the habit pattern of running the landing checklist abeam the numbers? If we teach that habit, then the position of the lever is inconsequential.
Click to expand...

:yes: This.
 
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