Teacher Walkout (N/A)

[Gerhardt]

The teacher walkout is headline news today. They’re upset about their pay, and this has been going on since I was a kid. I’d like to see every teacher who walks out fired and have their certificates stripped.

1. First and foremost they’re in the middle of a contract. Upset about your pay? Then finish your obligation while negotiating on the next contract, or don’t accept the next contract.

2. Did they take the job and then discover the pay isn’t what they want? No, teacher pay was never kept secret and they knew what it was the day they took their first undergraduate course.

3. The pay isn’t poverty level in most places. No places that I know of. In most places entry level teacher pay is the same as entry level pay for police, firefighters and entry pay for white collar private sector.

4. My wife was an elementary and middle school teacher for seven years when we were first married. While she had a few gripes, pay wasn’t one of them. The 9 months a year thing IS a valid point. Yes, some choose to take college classes, teach summer school for extra $, etc. But every teacher I knew LOVED having most or all of the summer off.

It’s just another one of my 1,000,001 pet peeves.

It’s a sore spot for me because the system is NOT underfunded by any means. They have more than enough money, it’s just not spent with any restraint. Our district has 18,550 students and an annual budget of just over $230,000,000. That’s absurd. We are very administrator-heavy. Starting salary for asst. principal is almost $76K, and most schools in our district (of 34 schools) have three. We have 34 schools. Our lowest paid principal is paid $93K. And now we have a vote coming up Tuesday where the district keeps saying “this is not a tax increase”. Bullsh*t. Several years ago they passed an initiative where they claimed special needs, but only for a few years, then our taxes would be returned to their prior level. Now is that time, only they don’t want to return the taxes to their prior level. They never do. I yell from every rooftop, “YES, this IS a tax increase!”

I stand by my opinion that teachers are not underpaid compared to the general public. They're extremely underpaid compared to the vast number of administrators they're surrounded by. If the district wants to pay them more, go for it, but don’t do it on my dime. Take it out of the funds they already have. Or don’t. For every position available we have more than a hundred applicants. Plenty of qualified people willing to work a salary that they know exactly what the number is. No one walked into a teaching contract blind.

It’s the education industrial complex out of control.


BTW, don’t think that I’m not sympathetic with teachers. Between dealing with parents, students, administrators, rules, etc. it’s not a job I’d ever want. It's worse than trying to administrate a Spin Zone. But then again, I didn’t sign up for the job for exactly those reasons. Every job has pluses and every job has minuses. You just have to pick one where, for you, the pluses outweigh the minuses.

 

[paflyer]

No argument from me.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Well, I can agree on some points.

1) Agreed, partially. The problem is that in OK, the legislature doesn't ever seem to take it seriously and nothing ever gets done. Empty promises and no solutions. So, how do you get their attention? **** off a lot of parents who have to pay for daycare or take the day off to babysit their children. Those parents know the reason why, and hopefully blow up their legislators to fix the problem. Negotiating in the summer hasn't yielded any dividends for them.

2) Again, partially. The problem isn't that they "didn't know what they signed up for", it's that in OK, they haven't received raises for years. It's one thing to expect low wages, but it's another to work the same job and not even get cost of living adjustments to keep pace with inflation.

3) One of the pros (and cons) of OK is that it's pretty hard to make poverty-level wages here. Cost of living is one of the lowest in the nation. However, it's not exactly a "win" to say that teachers aren't living below the poverty-line. They shouldn't have to be living at poverty-line with a valuable 4-yr degree (or Masters-level) in some instances.

4) The 9-month wage is valid, which is precisely why they don't like to talk about it in annualized terms. I believe the real solution for OK is to go to year-round school anyway, but strictly for educational reasons, nothing to do with teacher pay.

If I had my way at the negotiating table for OK, this is what would happen:

1) School district consolidation where applicable
2) Consolidation should result in hefty reduction in administrative staff, maintenance costs, and number of employees with high salaries.
3) Year-round school
4) Performance-based funding/teacher pay. OK ranks somewhere in the mid-40's for education quality depending on which source you use. I'd negotiate that we'll pay the regional average per pupil for funding for 4-yrs. In return, educational performance ranking should rise at least 10 spots, or else funding will be reduced (or something to that effect). There needs to be an incentive to get better results, and simply paying them more isn't going to change anything.

 

[Tantalum]

1. First and foremost they’re in the middle of a contract. Upset about your pay? Then finish your obligation while negotiating on the next contract, or don’t accept the next contract.

2. Did they take the job and then discover the pay isn’t what they want? No, teacher pay was never kept secret and they knew what it was the day they took their first undergraduate course.

I TOTALLY, ABSOLUTELY agree with you here on both points.

It’s a sore spot for me because the system is NOT underfunded by any means. They have more than enough money, it’s just not spent with any restraint.

That's the bigger problem with many of these things when it comes to how Big Brother spends our money. When it's not your money you are spending, and you operate outside of the "fair market capitalist" dynamic then this tends to happen

It's also funny, because whenever a tax cut or reduction, or heck, the opposition to an increase is fought, it tends to be met with "but what about the teachers, they can't afford a pay cut" <- guess what, maybe instead of using them as a pawn for your gain and threatening their pay, maybe instead Deval Patrick doesn't need new curtains, etc. https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...for-history/pg4Le3oMndKHOSbCyFXAfP/story.html

Neither party is immune to this, but having lived in MASS that's what came to mind

Anyway. IBTL! lol

 

[Gerhardt]

4) Performance-based funding/teacher pay.

The problem is that it's a public school system where along with the best and brightest, and even the mediocre, the teachers are stuck with some of the worst of the worst. Problem kids who show up only for the fun of raising hell. Who don't want to learn. And then there are the developmentally disabled, who also deserve a decent education but will never test even at the average level.

Which is why diverting funding from public schools to private schools is a terrible idea. The private schools aren't taking the kids who require more effort and resources. They only want the cream.

We have some great teachers in the public system and they SHOULD be paid well. But my argument is that they should be paid with the funds that are already there, simply misallocated to a bureaucratic administration.

 

[SoonerAviator]

The problem is that it's a public school system where along with the best and brightest, and even the mediocre, the teachers are stuck with some of the worst of the worst. Problem kids who show up only for the fun of raising hell. Who don't want to learn. And then there are the developmentally disabled, who also deserve a decent education but will never test even at the average level.

Which is why diverting funding from public schools to private schools is a terrible idea. The private schools aren't taking the kids who require more effort and resources. They only want the cream.

We have some great teachers in the public system and they SHOULD be paid well. But my argument is that they should be paid with the funds that are already there, simply misallocated to a bureaucratic administration.

So just don't require any better performance, then? Sorry, but if you improve performance of the majority, it still raises the average. Obviously I'm not advocating that there not be differing standards for the developmentally disabled. Factoring them into the regular students would be disingenuous. I don't doubt that some teachers are stuck with the worst of the worse, but that's no reason not to expect better performance from the school as a whole, or the public education system as a whole. In the case of students who are disruptive/worst of the worse, give the teacher and/or school more authority to toss 'em.

If I were your investment manager and told you I needed another $2K/yr in admin fees, but you'd not get any increase in performance, would you pay up?

 

[Gerhardt]

In the case of students who are disruptive/worst of the worse, give the teacher and/or school more authority to toss 'em.

The general idea is to make the world a better place. When you toss disruptive students too quickly the classroom becomes a better place, but the world outside the classroom becomes worse because now we have too many unmotivated AND uneducated people. It's a tough balancing act.

But more than that, I have a personal story I may have shared here many years ago. My son is 17 now, all honors classes (and tough ones..latin, calculus, etc) and straight As. But from the time he entered kindergarten he had too much energy. I was constantly getting calls, emails and write-ups from school where he was talking when he shouldn't have been. When he was in second grade I got a call at work from his teacher. "This is Mrs. Sadewhite. I'm going to put Erich on the phone and tell you about our problem." She did, and he told me how he was talking when he shouldn't have been. That was one phone call too many, and I told the teacher to email me things like that, or call me after work, but I was busy during the day and unless it was an emergency please don't do that again. Even my wife told me that night that I was going to suffer the consequences.

Sure enough, about two weeks later I pulled in the driveway after work and found two police cars in front of our house. A woman from another car walked over with the police officers behind her. "I'm from Child Protective Servcies. We're here to take Erich."

I had no idea what was going on, and asked, After saying she wasn't taking my son. She explained that the teacher called her after Erich had drawn a picture of a gun in class. And that I'd told her to not contact me during the day, and Erich was in immediate need of evaluation and most likely treatment.

I explained to the officers that in no way were they taking my son, that this was the first I was hearing of a problem. They were sympathetic. "She called us saying she was fearful of you and we're here only to ensure her safety. WE are not taking your son anywhere."

To make life easier for everyone, I agreed that I would take my son in for assessment that night. It took most of the night and the doctor was incredibly amazed at how everything had unfolded. He gave me a wonderful long write up, a copy of what he gave CPS and the school. We haven't had one problem since then. But this could have gone so very wrong.

When someone suggests to me that we give teachers or school administrators more authority over our kids I couldn't be more adamantly opposed. I'm not a violent person, but I would have surprised even myself at how violent I would have become that night if I'd had to.

 

[James331]

With what I pay in property taxes and what the schools produce, I have zero F's to give form those poor whiny teachers. Don't like the pay, bye felicia

If it were up to me I'd get the government out of education, can't afford to educate your own kids, don't have them.

 

[SoonerAviator]

The general idea is to make the world a better place. When you toss disruptive students too quickly the classroom becomes a better place, but the world outside the classroom becomes worse because now we have too many unmotivated AND uneducated people. It's a tough balancing act.

But more than that, I have a personal story I may have shared here many years ago. My son is 17 now, all honors classes (and tough ones..latin, calculus, etc) and straight As. But from the time he entered kindergarten he had too much energy. I was constantly getting calls, emails and write-ups from school where he was talking when he shouldn't have been. When he was in second grade I got a call at work from his teacher. "This is Mrs. Sadewhite. I'm going to put Erich on the phone and tell you about our problem." She did, and he told me how he was talking when he shouldn't have been. That was one phone call too many, and I told the teacher to email me things like that, or call me after work, but I was busy during the day and unless it was an emergency please don't do that again. Even my wife told me that night that I was going to suffer the consequences.

Sure enough, about two weeks later I pulled in the driveway after work and found two police cars in front of our house. A woman from another car walked over with the police officers behind her. "I'm from Child Protective Servcies. We're here to take Erich."

I had no idea what was going on, and asked, After saying she wasn't taking my son. She explained that the teacher called her after Erich had drawn a picture of a gun in class. And that I'd told her to not contact me during the day, and Erich was in immediate need of evaluation and most likely treatment.

I explained to the officers that in no way were they taking my son, that this was the first I was hearing of a problem. They were sympathetic. "She called us saying she was fearful of you and we're here only to ensure her safety. WE are not taking your son anywhere."

To make life easier for everyone, I agreed that I would take my son in for assessment that night. It took most of the night and the doctor was incredibly amazed at how everything had unfolded. He gave me a wonderful long write up, a copy of what he gave CPS and the school. We haven't had one problem since then. But this could have gone so very wrong.

When someone suggests to me that we give teachers or school administrators more authority over our kids I couldn't be more adamantly opposed. I'm not a violent person, but I would have surprised even myself at how violent I would have become that night if I'd had to.

Lol, I didn't say that the disruptive students needed to be abandoned. However, there needs to be ways to address those students quickly without affecting the rest of the classroom. I also didn't say anything about giving them additional power to invoke CPS or otherwise, however, being able to more easily yank a kid out of class, or have a child picked up from school by their parent after being disruptive should be allowed. Your kid being disruptive and hindering development of others? Sorry, come pick them up. You straighten them out, it's not the teacher's job to do so.

 

[UngaWunga]

So only the rich have kids. Got it.

 

[JOhnH]

The general idea is to make the world a better place. When you toss disruptive students too quickly the classroom becomes a better place, but the world outside the classroom becomes worse because now we have too many unmotivated AND uneducated people. It's a tough balancing act.

But more than that, I have a personal story I may have shared here many years ago. My son is 17 now, all honors classes (and tough ones..latin, calculus, etc) and straight As. But from the time he entered kindergarten he had too much energy. I was constantly getting calls, emails and write-ups from school where he was talking when he shouldn't have been. When he was in second grade I got a call at work from his teacher. "This is Mrs. Sadewhite. I'm going to put Erich on the phone and tell you about our problem." She did, and he told me how he was talking when he shouldn't have been. That was one phone call too many, and I told the teacher to email me things like that, or call me after work, but I was busy during the day and unless it was an emergency please don't do that again. Even my wife told me that night that I was going to suffer the consequences.

Sure enough, about two weeks later I pulled in the driveway after work and found two police cars in front of our house. A woman from another car walked over with the police officers behind her. "I'm from Child Protective Servcies. We're here to take Erich."

I had no idea what was going on, and asked, After saying she wasn't taking my son. She explained that the teacher called her after Erich had drawn a picture of a gun in class. And that I'd told her to not contact me during the day, and Erich was in immediate need of evaluation and most likely treatment.

I explained to the officers that in no way were they taking my son, that this was the first I was hearing of a problem. They were sympathetic. "She called us saying she was fearful of you and we're here only to ensure her safety. WE are not taking your son anywhere."

To make life easier for everyone, I agreed that I would take my son in for assessment that night. It took most of the night and the doctor was incredibly amazed at how everything had unfolded. He gave me a wonderful long write up, a copy of what he gave CPS and the school. We haven't had one problem since then. But this could have gone so very wrong.

When someone suggests to me that we give teachers or school administrators more authority over our kids I couldn't be more adamantly opposed. I'm not a violent person, but I would have surprised even myself at how violent I would have become that night if I'd had to.

While I am sympathetic with you, I have to ask: How would you have the school handle a child that constantly disrupts the class and takes time away from other students? Especially when you have instructed them not to contact you with these issues?

But I agree that sending the cops and CPS was not the way to handle it, and the charge of drawing a gun is absurd. But other than that, how should they have handled your son? (Please note that this is coming from someone with no children and admits they know little about parenting).

 

[SoonerAviator]

With what I pay in property taxes and what the schools produce, I have zero F's to give form those poor whiny teachers. Don't like the pay, bye felicia

If it were up to me I'd get the government out of education, can't afford to educate your own kids, don't have them.

While I understand the sentiment, it's not a method we can employee in the real world. The real world involves educating everyone to a minimum standard so that we don't end up with an educated wealthy class, and a completely ignorant lower class. The US is not a caste system. It's also pretty difficult to turn away children from education after they already exist, lol. Rising tide lifts all ships, and all that . . .

 

[James331]

While I understand the sentiment, it's not a method we can employee in the real world. The real world involves educating everyone to a minimum standard so that we don't end up with an educated wealthy class, and a completely ignorant lower class. The US is not a caste system. It's also pretty difficult to turn away children from education after they already exist, lol. Rising tide lifts all ships, and all that . . .

People seemed to get their education and even formed this country before the government ran the schools.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

In WV and Oklahoma, the teachers have at legitimate beef. In many schools, there are so few teachers, because they have left for jobs in better paying states, that grades levels are combined. Classes are 30-40 kids each and teachers are required to cover material they weren't certified for, with in four rather than 5 school days, to standards of learning test scores that were formulated for far smaller classes working at the same grade level and a full 5 day week. And if the scores aren't met, the teacher is fined.

Plus, many just had what they thought were grants converted into loans by the Dept of Ed. And suprise, surprise, none of that was in the contract they signed. I'd walk the eff out too.

 

[Art Rose]

Easy to become a teacher, difficult to be a good teacher. Those who can't do, teach. More than one of my college instructors were failures in the real world. A couple of less than stellar high school classmates became elementary teachers. Poor kids.

I spent my career working in a technical field. For the past eight years, as I have neared retirement, I became a technical instructor in my career field. I have classroom experience in a private institution, a public institution, and today I continue my career as a part time technical instructor/recruiter for a major International Apprenticeship program.

Conclusions: Parents need to get involved in the education of their children. Politicians need to get out of education and stop promoting a college education for everyone. The teachers unions need to have their house cleaned. Teachers need to be individually, and regularly evaluated. Administration personnel numbers need to be substantially reduced. Public funding for some of these ridiculously expensive school projects needs to end.

Most of the teachers I've met, and know, are intelligent, dedicated, and suited for the sometimes difficult job that they do. However, there are many others that honestly belong somewhere other than in a classroom, or even in an educational system. Tenure programs need to be eliminated.

Yes, overall, for the demands of the job, most teachers are underpaid, and under loved, but, this is the career path they chose. Like myself, they certainly can move on if it's not working out. I don't blame the good ones for speaking out, but, if they want more, they need to help make some of the changes I've mentioned above. There's already more than enough money in the system to provide them with more than what they're are asking for. Let them prove to us that they're worthy, and let us move froward.

 

[wayne]

The problem is that it's a public school system where along with the best and brightest, and even the mediocre, the teachers are stuck with some of the worst of the worst. Problem kids who show up only for the fun of raising hell. Who don't want to learn. And then there are the developmentally disabled, who also deserve a decent education but will never test even at the average level.

Those in the developmentally disabled could easily be excluded from the testing results.

Those trouble makers on the other hand..... Their parents are the problem. They don't care, so their kids don't care. What I saw for the time our kids were in public school was those parents had little education and didn't value education much. In private school the parents are writing checks, so they really care about education. It makes a huge difference.

Which is why diverting funding from public schools to private schools is a terrible idea. The private schools aren't taking the kids who require more effort and resources. They only want the cream.

What about the kids that are bright, but their parents can't afford private school, partially due to the taxes paid to fund the public schools? We could afford it, but not everyone can; and even then it was somewhat painful. All three of our kids went to different colleges and yet all of them report they were much better prepared for college than the vast majority of their classmates. I remember one commenting on lab partners that had never written a lab report, and that they were surprised our daughter had lost count of how many she'd written.

 

[SoonerAviator]

People seemed to get their education and even formed this country before the government ran the schools.

Lol, some did, many didn’t. Many stopped attending school before the secondary level to work jobs on the family farm or local coal mine. Those whose family could afford to let their child stay in school, did so.

Those who “formed this country” were primarily from affluent families, not exactly the “common man”. Washington, Adams, Hamilton, etc. were all men of wealthy families.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Timbeck2]

So only the rich have kids. Got it.

No. Only people who can afford to have kids should have kids. It isn't my responsibility to fund someone else's kid's education.

 

[James331]

Lol, some did, many didn’t. Many stopped attending school before the secondary level to work jobs on the family farm or local coal mine. Those whose family could afford to let their child stay in school, did so.

Those who “formed this country” were primarily from affluent families, not exactly the “common man”. Washington, Adams, Hamilton, etc. were all men of wealthy families.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Still sounds better than today

The affluent still are rich, but at least back then they believed in the constitution.

Back then the poor went on to get jobs or help their family farm, cool, now they suck on the tit of government via "programs" and "entitlements" or some other form of sucking the blood from the labors of others under the threat of government force.


I'd also imagine that under educated farm boy from back then would be 10 times more productive and useful, not to mention level headed, when compared to these miseducated kids today with worthless high school diplomas, a iPhone and zero understanding of a work ethic, or the real world.



If you think that "free" government issued education is for the benefit of "the children", you need to pick some 20th century history books.

Or take it from good old Hans
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Schemm

"Those who have the youth on their side control the future."

You really can't make a sound rational argument for forced government "education"
From funding, to inceptions, to function, to product, it mostly benefits government and those in power, lest you often hear any of the ruling class who wants THEIR KIDS to grow up as capable free thinkers, who sends their own children off to government schools.

 

[Gerhardt]

No. Only people who can afford to have kids should have kids. It isn't my responsibility to fund someone else's kid's education.

I wouldn't go that far. I agree that it's all of our responsibility to educate the masses. As a society we're better off because of it. My dissatisfaction is that it's become less about education and more about expanding a self-feeding government bureaucracy.

 

[Tantalum]

Only people who can afford to have kids should have kids.

I don't understand why being a responsible adult is such a hard concept for many grasp. It is not like one day you were really down on your luck and woke up suddenly with a houseful of dependents

Adults need to make responsible life choices. If you earn $20,000 a year, you shouldn't be out there having 6 kids

Birth control and contraception are easy enough and cheap enough to come by.. and a hell of a lot cheaper than raising a human

 

[denverpilot]

I’m pretty darn fiscally conservative, but my understanding of at least the Oklahoma situation is that those teachers haven’t seen a “cost of living” or other raises in a decade.

In a society based upon fake growth of money via inflationary monetary practices where we say losing 3-4% of our purchasing power every year is “normal” to feed Wall Street’s never-ending need for “growth”, it seems particularly harsh to say people working those jobs should be “fired” for demanding they simply get paid what they got paid in purchasing power on day one of their job.

If I don’t see a 3% raise per year, I know I’m losing money. In the private sector if your employer is doing that to you, you leave and somewhere else offers you a 10% raise to make up for part of it, if you’re any good at your job. Unless you really like other things at the place and believe those things are worth losing money over.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Still sounds better than today

The affluent still are rich, but at least back then they believed in the constitution.

Lol, it was no more accepted back then than it is today. It's not as if the country was founded with the Constitution and all peoples were at peace. There's a reason there have been amendments and a busy Supreme Court ever since its inception . . .

I'd also imagine that under educated farm boy from back then would be 10 times more productive and useful, not to mention level headed, when compared to these mis-educated kids today today with worthless high school diplomas, a iPhone and zero understanding of a work ethic, or the real world . . . You really can't make a sound rational argument for forced government "education"
From funding, to inceptions, to function, to product, it mostly benefits government and those in power, lest you often hear any of the ruling class who wants THEIR KIDS to grow up to he capable free thinkers, sending their own children into government schools.

Ugh, again, no. You seem to have some romanticized view of US History. People were not just happy, productive workers who knew their lot in life and were equally level-headed. People went broke, gambled, were taken-advantage-of, and had work skills that became effectively worthless. Times haven't changed, other than society, as a whole, has appeared to improved. There are still those who lack common sense and education, but there's not a single doubt that the average person is more intelligent now than back in the 1800's. If you want to argue that the subject matter being taught in schools doesn't provide enough real-world applicability, that's another discussion altogether.

I don't understand why being a responsible adult is such a hard concept for many grasp. It is not like one day you were really down on your luck and woke up suddenly with a houseful of dependents

Adults need to make responsible life choices. If you earn $20,000 a year, you shouldn't be out there having 6 kids

Birth control and contraception are easy enough and cheap enough to come by.. and a hell of a lot cheaper than raising a human

The problem is that you're conflating two different issues. Public education and personal responsibility are two different subjects with wildly different factors (although certainly personal responsibility has plenty of correlation to public education matters). Public school exists, and will continue to exist. There's no point in pretending that we can go back in history to when government started funding public education and eradicate it. However, we CAN seek to make it more effective at its stated purpose.

Also, the main problem with the idea of personal responsibility with regard to having kids, is that people are HUMAN. As such, human physical desires take precedence over monetary concerns in the human brain. You can't escape that. It's the reason much of the population exists to begin with, so there' not point in whining about it unless you're for mandatory sterilization.

 

[Gerhardt]

I don't understand why being a responsible adult is such a hard concept for many grasp.

I don't either. But it is.

It is not like one day you were really down on your luck and woke up suddenly with a houseful of dependents

I used to work with a guy who advocated for free birth control for all. I wrote him off as a nut, but I have to say that over a period of time I started thinking about his comments. Free birth control would be a drop in the ocean compared to government benefits.

 

[Gerhardt]

I’m pretty darn fiscally conservative, but my understanding of at least the Oklahoma situation is that those teachers haven’t seen a “cost of living” or other raises in a decade.

That's what I read too. And they have every right to renegotiate their NEXT contract. Enough teachers say they're not coming back next year until the problem is fixed...they'll find a way to fix the problem.

But the article I read this morning that prompted this thread was that the walkout is spreading. Teachers in a number of places are planning walkouts now.

As for Oklahoma, I just did a quick search and found this on teachingdegree.org.
"Although income for educators with teaching certification in Oklahoma will vary depending upon factors such as geographic location, school district, and area of specialization, the state of Oklahoma's minimum teacher salary ranges from $31,600 to $46,000."

$31,600 with no teaching experience and fresh from college is not so low as to prompt a walkout, mid-contract.

 

[Tantalum]

As such, human physical desires take precedence over monetary concerns in the human brain

Totally! But I mean, a trip to CVS should be at least 99% effective in preventing a pregnancy.. or, in most places now there are birth control pill options that are <$75 per month.. so I mean.. the options are out there

And fine, if you want a child, then how about one to start with? I can't figure it out when I see 7 kids walk out of a 1992 Toyota Sienna minivan at a park... like wtf?

Free birth control would be a drop in the ocean compared to government benefits

Yeah... I've thought about that too... but at the same time nothing is free, and I shouldn't be forced to pay for that for someone else. Just go to CVS with a couple bucks and problem solved, without creating another religious and government beuarocracy

Another issue is that parents used to, and still should, provide the main "raising" force in raising a family. School assures a certain standard of education is met, and teaches you language, history, math, etc., but more and more people are trying to leverage their own responsibility as parents onto the government.. and that's not really a reasonable or safe road to go down

 

[steingar]

Some get paid just fine. My best pal's now (thankfully) ex-wife made more than I. Those in the inner city, not so much. I know the WV teachers were near the bottom of the barrel pay wise, and I'll bet KY and OK aren't far behind. Sorry, these are highly educated professionals, and they have what is easily the most important job in America.

 

[SoonerAviator]

As for Oklahoma, I just did a quick search and found this on teachingdegree.org.
"Although income for educators with teaching certification in Oklahoma will vary depending upon factors such as geographic location, school district, and area of specialization, the state of Oklahoma's minimum teacher salary ranges from $31,600 to $46,000."

$31,600 with no teaching experience and fresh from college is not so low as to prompt a walkout, mid-contract.

Well, if all of the neighboring states having starting salaries $3K more (Texas is $7K more), then you are losing every teacher to other states because the market wage isn't enough to retain even the most entry-level applicants. Seems like that's economics at work . . .

 

[SoonerAviator]

. . . Another issue is that parents used to, and still should, provide the main "raising" force in raising a family. School assures a certain standard of education is met, and teaches you language, history, math, etc., but more and more people are trying to leverage their own responsibility as parents onto the government.. and that's not really a reasonable or safe road to go down

Thus we have the major crux of the issue. The largest factor (most studies agree) in the likelihood of success for a student are the parents. More specifically, if the parent(s) of the child place a high-importance on education at home, the child will likely do so as well. It's the same reason that most of the smartest children come from families where one or both parents are highly-educated. It doesn't mean that's always the case, but it's the strongest influence on educational success there is. However, you can't legislate parents into giving a crap, as much as the government has tried. So, that is where the main failure point for performance-based pay/funding runs into an issue.

 

[Gerhardt]

Well, if all of the neighboring states having starting salaries $3K more (Texas is $7K more), then you are losing every teacher to other states because the market wage isn't enough to retain even the most entry-level applicants. Seems like that's economics at work . . .

Our district teachers are moaning because we start them w/ no experience at $35,500. The thing is, for every opening there are more than a hundred applicants. And like I said before, the salary is on par with other careers in both the public and private sectors.

And not to sound harsh, but regardless of what the wages are...someone in the nation is going to have the lowest-paid teachers.

 

[James331]

...
Ugh, again, no. You seem to have some romanticized view of US History. People were not just happy, productive workers who knew their lot in life and were equally level-headed. People went broke, gambled, were taken-advantage-of, and had work skills that became effectively worthless. Times haven't changed, other than society, as a whole, has appeared to improved. There are still those who lack common sense and education, but there's not a single doubt that the average person is more intelligent now than back in the 1800's. If you want to argue that the subject matter being taught in schools doesn't provide enough real-world applicability, that's another discussion altogether.
...

There are some logic errors here

"not a single doubt that the average person is more intelligent now than back in the 1800"

"the subject matter being taught in schools doesn't provide enough real-world applicability"

Teaching useless junk doesn't make you smart, might make you a hit at trivia night though.

And the reason things are better is not because of public schools, it's because of the natural progression of tech and the inventors and free thinkers who made things to improve the human condition, again government schools are seldom growth centers for free thinking, encouraging free market, or being the type of person who make those types of improvements.

They make cogs, not minds.


It sucks that I'm going to one day have kids, I'm forced under the thread of violence pay for the governments failed schools, even though when I have kids they are going to be going to private schools with a track record of making free thinking successful minds and maybe initially locally schooled by family to a certain age with good socialization introduced as well ofcourse.

 

[timwinters]

No politics here...move along...

 

[overdrive148]

Teaching useless junk doesn't make you smart, might make you a hit at trivia night though.

What is "useless junk" exactly?

 

[SoonerAviator]

There are some logic errors here

"not a single doubt that the average person is more intelligent now than back in the 1800"

"the subject matter being taught in schools doesn't provide enough real-world applicability"

Teaching useless junk doesn't make you smart, might make you a hit at trivia night though.

And the reason things are better is not because of public schools, it's because of the natural progression of tech and the inventors and free thinkers who made things to improve the human condition, again government schools are seldom growth centers for free thinking, encouraging free market, or being the type of person who make those types of improvements.

They make cogs, not minds.


It sucks that I'm going to one day have kids, I'm forced under the thread of violence pay for the governments failed schools, even though when I have kids they are going to be going to private schools with a track record of making free thinking successful minds and maybe initially locally schooled by family to a certain age with good socialization introduced as well ofcourse.

Ok, hows this for proof of concept for you:

There's no logic error, there. It's fact. The average American is more intelligent now than in the 19th century. Whether you consider that knowledge useful or not is another story. It's also not to say that average American intelligence is something to be proud of.

Re: They make cogs, not minds.
Goodness, I realize you're all-in on the Libertarian world-view, but every education must have a foundation. I'm not sure what "free thinking/free market" ideas need to be taught in 5th grade, but whatever floats your boat. Again, that has little to do with how well public schools educate their pupils and more to do with the federal/state-required curriculum. As I mentioned before, it's a different conversation.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Lowest paid teachers is one thing. Lowest paid teachers teaching technology classes on 10 year old computers, history classes with books that end in 2009, math with tattered books missing pages is another. OK is spending 30% less on education today than it was 10 years ago, on an inflation adjusted basis. Not just salaries, the whole enchilada. The elite's kids get educated in private schools, where surprisingly enough salaries aren't that great, and usually there's no tenure. But teachers are eager because the kids are bright, materials current, supplies plentiful and technology is generally first rate, parents care, and the roofs don't leak.

And in many parts of this country you can find some damn fine public school systems as well.

 

[murphey]

I don't understand why being a responsible adult is such a hard concept for many grasp. It is not like one day you were really down on your luck and woke up suddenly with a houseful of dependents

Adults need to make responsible life choices. If you earn $20,000 a year, you shouldn't be out there having 6 kids

Birth control and contraception are easy enough and cheap enough to come by.. and a hell of a lot cheaper than raising a human

There is a valid opposition response to this, but due to the dictate against political and some religious discourse, I'm unable to properly reply.

 

[luvflyin]

In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something else.

Lee Iacocca

 

[Tantalum]

There is a valid opposition response to this, but due to the dictate against political and some religious discourse, I'm unable to properly reply.

Yeah I think we're walking on thin ice, but all things considered civil! No spilled milk yet haha. I think I can infer what you're getting it.. and I have some thoughts and responses to that inference as well.. but those are probably better saved to have over some cold drinks and steaks!

Lee Iacocca

Makes you wonder if Chrysler would have survived without him. Doubtful

 

[murphey]

That's what I read too. And they have every right to renegotiate their NEXT contract. Enough teachers say they're not coming back next year until the problem is fixed...they'll find a way to fix the problem.

But the article I read this morning that prompted this thread was that the walkout is spreading. Teachers in a number of places are planning walkouts now.

As for Oklahoma, I just did a quick search and found this on teachingdegree.org.
"Although income for educators with teaching certification in Oklahoma will vary depending upon factors such as geographic location, school district, and area of specialization, the state of Oklahoma's minimum teacher salary ranges from $31,600 to $46,000."

$31,600 with no teaching experience and fresh from college is not so low as to prompt a walkout, mid-contract.

Let's be generous and start with $46,000 to start. Now consider 10% off the top for Federal Taxes, 3.5% for FICA or state equivalent, and another 5-8% for sales tax. Annualize that's $3124/month.

Rent/house? Average rent in OKC is $735/mo, $700 in Tulsa. Over $800 in Norman, but that's a university town. Obviously lower outside the metro area but still the amount spent on rent will be proportional to the income.
So now we're down to $2424/month

Health insurance? Most schools are asking/requiring teachers to contribute to health insurance.
Car insurance & gas? My 11 yr old car is costing me $1100 and it's just a beat up ford. That's another $200/month
Food?
Savings?
Continuing education?
Paying for student & classroom supplies because the school district doesn't?
This assumes a single teacher. What about married with/without kids? Insurance just went skyrocketing.
Student Loans? Far too many people can't get thru school without loans.

The issue is that the taxes, food, insurance, etc are rising yet the teacher salaries are not rising along with.

As for getting out of teaching - many people want to teach, are good at teaching, and only wish to be compensated commensurately. Personally, I think teachers should be at the same pay scale as engineers & doctors. They provide a much needed and critical need at the earliest stage of a person's life.

On the other hand, I also agree that the bloated cost of administration and the completely absurd testing, special projects that do nothing to support the mission of teaching/education, etc. needs to be eliminated.

 

[Cooter]

There are some logic errors here

"not a single doubt that the average person is more intelligent now than back in the 1800"

"the subject matter being taught in schools doesn't provide enough real-world applicability"

Teaching useless junk doesn't make you smart, might make you a hit at trivia night though.

And the reason things are better is not because of public schools, it's because of the natural progression of tech and the inventors and free thinkers who made things to improve the human condition, again government schools are seldom growth centers for free thinking, encouraging free market, or being the type of person who make those types of improvements.

They make cogs, not minds.


It sucks that I'm going to one day have kids, I'm forced under the thread of violence pay for the governments failed schools, even though when I have kids they are going to be going to private schools with a track record of making free thinking successful minds and maybe initially locally schooled by family to a certain age with good socialization introduced as well ofcourse.

Wow. 39 posts deep and I’m still agreeing with @James331. That doesn’t happen often.