TBO Question on used 172N

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Clay Medford

Filing Flight Plan
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ClayMed
Looking at a decent priced 1978 172N with 2300TT, that never had official OH done on either engine or prop, but has has the top and bottom "redone" at separate times in the last couple years. Owner says the redo is all documented in the logbooks, but I haven't seen the logbooks yet so I cant say what "redone" actually means. Should I be factoring in an OH on the engine and prop in the price or just prop? Will have a prepay done so just looking for other opinions.
 
I’m assuming ‘redone’ means a top and bottom end overhaul, but in any case I’d always budget for a major overhaul.
 
Review the logbooks with a competent mechanic and evaluate the engine itself. Then decide what it’s current status is and how you feel about it. Every engine is used, it is a matter of how used up it is.
 
Clay Medford said:
Looking at a decent priced 1978 172N with 2300TT, that never had official OH done
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If it hasn’t had an “official” OH it hasn’t had an OH. So yes, factor that in the price.
Check the books. Possibly had a cracked case that got replaced and the seller is calling it a bottom end redo. Check details on this top work also.
Get a GOOD prebuy! Feel free to PM if needed.
 
Clay Medford said:
Lycoming 0-320
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As in H2AD ?


GOODS

By removing Lifters the condition of the Cam can be determined. Can’t do that on most other engines.

I’ve seen a few go amazingly long TBO. And that included students and banner towing.


BAD

The D-xxxx dual mag is not supported. Few people like it.
 
Might be good advice for any aircraft purchase to factor in a major overhaul no matter how much (or how little) time since the last overhaul.
 
People on here like to say “pics or it didn’t happen” when someone says they did something. Well, in aviation maintenance one can and should say “log entry or it didn’t happen.” And until you see the logs, any possible log entry should not exist in your mind. So rather than waiting for illumination here, I’d ask to see the books. If the plane is not local to you, the owner should at least be willing to scan and email the pages for you. By the way, “redo” or “redone” are not recognized terms.
 
SkyDog is spot on. I will say that every sale is different, you never know what, or who you’re dealing with until you have the aircraft and books evaluated. I’ve had sellers that would not scan us the books yet they were clean as a whistle. I’ve also had the most honest sounding folks produce the most fraudulent books I’ve ever seen. I purchased an extremely clean airplane once from a guy who was doing time in jail. I’ve also purchased from people who should be in jail for corrupt aircraft advertising and fraud. One guy was extremely honest but nothing seemed to add up with what he was telling me. Later I found out he had dementia and that’s exactly why he was selling the airplane.
I cannot emphasize the importance of getting a good prebuy
 
If it's the original engine it will have the H2AD, famous for cam problems if you don't use the AD-mandated additive in it. And it has that Bendix dual magneto that isn't made anymore. When was it last opened for inspection? Continental bought Bendix and stop building that mag, possibly because it was only used on Lycomings. There is also the crankshaft bore pitting AD that applies to that engine. Any prebuy needs to address ALL of that.
 
Thanks everyone. Owner says he another buyer ready to write a check so I may just let him. Trying to finish my PPL so don't need to have a plane I bought to use as my trainer to be in the shop and rent.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Might be good advice for any aircraft purchase to factor in a major overhaul no matter how much (or how little) time since the last overhaul.
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That sounds like a good way to price oneself out of offering a competitive price for an aircraft.
 
3393RP said:
That sounds like a good way to price oneself out of offering a competitive price for an aircraft.
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Only flying 2300 hours in 44 years is less than 5 hours a month and almost certainly means the airplane has not flown for long periods. In my book, it's done and if the price doesn't include a full discount of the engine, it's not competitive.

Hope is still not a strategy.
 
3393RP said:
That sounds like a good way to price oneself out of offering a competitive price for an aircraft.
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Maybe. But my point is that regardless of time on the engine, things happen and it might be a good idea to have a healthy reserve available for unforeseen issues.

I didn’t NECESSARILY mean one should treat a freshly overhauled engine as if it were run out price wise.
 
3393RP said:
That sounds like a good way to price oneself out of offering a competitive price for an aircraft.
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Would you honestly recommend that a first time buyer sign on the dotted line without having the resources necessary to fund unexpected maintenance or a major engine overhaul, though? They’d be more or less pricing themselves out regardless.
 
bflynn said:
Only flying 2300 hours in 44 years is less than 5 hours a month and almost certainly means the airplane has not flown for long periods. In my book, it's done and if the price doesn't include a full discount of the engine, it's not competitive.

Hope is still not a strategy.
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My comment had nothing to do with the aircraft the OP is discussing.

RyanB said:
Would you honestly recommend that a first time buyer sign on the dotted line without having the resources necessary to fund unexpected maintenance or a major engine overhaul, though? They’d be more or less pricing themselves out regardless.
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I made no recommendation regarding the OP or any other buyer contemplating their first aircraft purchase.

Greg Bockelman said:
Maybe. But my point is that regardless of time on the engine, things happen and it might be a good idea to have a healthy reserve available for unforeseen issues.

I didn’t NECESSARILY mean one should treat a freshly overhauled engine as if it were run out price wise.
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But your statement contained no ambiguity. You said, in effect, all aircraft being considered for purchase should be treated as requiring an engine overhaul.

This makes little sense. Investigation of aircraft service records and inspection of the aircraft's condition are the tools one has to make an offer. While caution is certainly recommended, a blanket condemnation of all engines on all aircraft for sale as needing an overhaul and pricing them accordingly would result as I said. The purchaser's offer would be unrealistic, and the chances of it being accepted in today's market would be nil.

I suspect you didn't literally mean what you said, but there it is.
 
3393RP said:
My comment had nothing to do with the aircraft the OP is discussing.



I made no recommendation regarding the OP or any other buyer contemplating their first aircraft purchase.



But your statement contained no ambiguity. You said, in effect, all aircraft being considered for purchase should be treated as requiring an engine overhaul.

This makes little sense. Investigation of aircraft service records and inspection of the aircraft's condition are the tools one has to make an offer. While caution is certainly recommended, a blanket condemnation of all engines on all aircraft for sale as needing an overhaul and pricing them accordingly would result as I said. The purchaser's offer would be unrealistic, and the chances of it being accepted in today's market would be nil.

I suspect you didn't literally mean what you said, but there it is.
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I understood what you meant and I also took Greg’s post the way that you did with a similar WTF response.
 
Would you mind sharing the asking price for this airplane? Just curious about comparisons.
 
That doesn’t sound off track at all to me depending on equipment and condition.
 
Around 100k seems to be a spot for those planes. The devil is always in the details. Even with a really good prebuy you may be unlucky and the engine needs an overhaul after very few hours so it’s best to budget for that whenever purchasing a used plane with no warranty.
 
I’m always a little suspect when it’s been umpteen years since the overhaul too. I realize we can go beyond the 12, but getting towards 30+ years can get dicey. There are often long sit times when going way out.

I did meet a seller years ago who tried to turn it into a positive though, saying ‘no one messed it up from factory’ as it was a 30+ yr engine.
 
sourdough44 said:
I did meet a seller years ago who tried to turn it into a positive though, saying ‘no one messed it up from factory’ as it was a 30+ yr engine.
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The best engine I’ve flown and maintained is one of those. Built in the early ‘90s and only flown 350 hours until we picked it up. Most of those hours were put on in the mid ‘90s as well. It has the cleanest oil and best looking filters and analysis of any aircraft engine that I’ve been around.

I certainly don’t go looking for old engines but sometimes you have to take one if you want the aircraft. And sometimes you get really lucky.
 
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