"taxi instructions"

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Warrior5898

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John5898
I think I read recently, maybe in IFR Refresher, that controllers can no longer give 'taxi to the ramp' instructions to pilots after landing, or 'taxi to RWY 18' (for instance to take-off), if it means crossing active runways. For example; Controllers can't say 'Warrior 5898 taxi to runway 18 via taxi-way charlie, crossing rwy 8/26, then taxi-way tango to the runway. I thought I read that due to recent runway incursions pilots always had to stop and report a desire to cross an active runway? In FAR/AIM 2011, 4-3-20C, note 2, it says "A clearance from ATC to taxi to the ramp authorizes the aircraft to cross all runways and taxiway intersections.
HELP please.....I think I'm losing my mind!
 
Warrior5898 said:
I think I read recently, maybe in IFR Refresher, that controllers can no longer give 'taxi to the ramp' instructions to pilots after landing, or 'taxi to RWY 18' (for instance to take-off), if it means crossing active runways. For example; Controllers can't say 'Warrior 5898 taxi to runway 18 via taxi-way charlie, crossing rwy 8/26, then taxi-way tango to the runway. I thought I read that due to recent runway incursions pilots always had to stop and report a desire to cross an active runway? In FAR/AIM 2011, 4-3-20C, note 2, it says "A clearance from ATC to taxi to the ramp authorizes the aircraft to cross all runways and taxiway intersections.
HELP please.....I think I'm losing my mind!
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The change was that they'll TELL you the runways you can cross. It used to be that they could say "Cessna 152, taxi to runway 36". That would give you permission to cross runway 35 and 32 on your way to 36. Now they have to specify the runways you can cross.

List of the changes:
http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/taxi_to/

This part is the key:
You may not enter a runway unless you have been: instructed to cross or taxi onto that specific runway; cleared to take off from that runway; or instructed to position and hold on that specific runway.
 
They also changed the phraseology beyond the specific crossing instructions and limitations. The old wording started with "Taxi to runway xx..." but now it's "Taxi runway xx...". I think the elimination of "to" was to eliminate the potential for a pilot to assume they were cleared all the way to the specified runway.

Also with a waiver ATC can let you cross two runways at a time if they are close together.
 
jesse said:
The change was that they'll TELL you the runways you can cross. It used to be that they could say "Cessna 152, taxi to runway 36". That would give you permission to cross runway 35 and 32 on your way to 36. Now they have to specify the runways you can cross.

List of the changes:
http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/taxi_to/

This part is the key:
You may not enter a runway unless you have been: instructed to cross or taxi onto that specific runway; cleared to take off from that runway; or instructed to position and hold on that specific runway.
Click to expand...

Nope. It's now "line up and wait". :D
 
Ron Levy created a nice PowerPoint presentation of the new rules before they went into effect. A search on here or the Red Board will probably find that, or he will probably be along shortly and can provide a link.

Wells
 
Warrior5898 said:
I think I read recently, maybe in IFR Refresher, that controllers can no longer give 'taxi to the ramp' instructions to pilots after landing, or 'taxi to RWY 18' (for instance to take-off), if it means crossing active runways. For example; Controllers can't say 'Warrior 5898 taxi to runway 18 via taxi-way charlie, crossing rwy 8/26, then taxi-way tango to the runway. I thought I read that due to recent runway incursions pilots always had to stop and report a desire to cross an active runway? In FAR/AIM 2011, 4-3-20C, note 2, it says "A clearance from ATC to taxi to the ramp authorizes the aircraft to cross all runways and taxiway intersections.
HELP please.....I think I'm losing my mind!
Click to expand...

Controllers can no longer say "taxi to RWY 18", they can still say "taxi to the ramp."
 
gismo said:
They also changed the phraseology beyond the specific crossing instructions and limitations. The old wording started with "Taxi to runway xx..." but now it's "Taxi runway xx...". I think the elimination of "to" was to eliminate the potential for a pilot to assume they were cleared all the way to the specified runway.
Click to expand...

Now the wording is "runway xx, taxi via..."
 
Here's the presentation on the new rules, including references to the FAA directives involved. Unfortunately, nine months after the operational change went into effect, the FAA still has not implemented a change to 91.129(i) to make the regulations consistent with the directive to controllers. However, unless the controllers screws up their end of the deal, it really doesn't matter to the pilot involved, since a) the controller shouldn't say "taxi to runway 18" and b) shouldn't issue a taxi clearance without including "hold short" or "cross" for intersecting runways on the assigned taxi route.
 

Attachments

  • New Taxi Clearance Rules.pdf
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Not a problem... Since the change over - and with some of the controllers heads as far up in a dark place as some of the pilots are - to cover my butt I stop at every runway and request clearance to cross it (which puts it on the tape in unambiguous form)... Only had one controller get snippy and say, "You were already cleared."
I had it on the tip of my tongue to snap back, "yeah, but I have ADD.", then thought better of it... Sometimes it is best not to kick the hornets nest... I was quite proud of my self control for days after that...

denny-o
 
Dr. O said:
Not a problem... Since the change over - and with some of the controllers heads as far up in a dark place as some of the pilots are - to cover my butt I stop at every runway and request clearance to cross it (which puts it on the tape in unambiguous form)... Only had one controller get snippy and say, "You were already cleared."
I had it on the tip of my tongue to snap back, "yeah, but I have ADD.", then thought better of it... Sometimes it is best not to kick the hornets nest... I was quite proud of my self control for days after that...
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Do you also stop and look both ways at green lights when driving?:rolleyes2:
 
Dr. O said:
Not a problem... Since the change over - and with some of the controllers heads as far up in a dark place as some of the pilots are - to cover my butt I stop at every runway and request clearance to cross it (which puts it on the tape in unambiguous form)... Only had one controller get snippy and say, "You were already cleared."
I had it on the tip of my tongue to snap back, "yeah, but I have ADD.", then thought better of it... Sometimes it is best not to kick the hornets nest... I was quite proud of my self control for days after that...

denny-o
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Just write down the instructions they give you and read them back clearly. That will cover you.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That and they already have the original instruction on the tape.
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Sure but you might have heard it wrong which is what all the read back stuff is about. I'll do what I read back.
 
jesse said:
Sure but you might have heard it wrong which is what all the read back stuff is about. I'll do what I read back.
Click to expand...

Not disagreeing with you at all - obviously your readback will be on the tape too. Just agreeing that there is really no point in stopping short and asking again for clearance to cross unless you do have ADD.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not disagreeing with you at all - obviously your readback will be on the tape too. Just agreeing that there is really no point in stopping short and asking again for clearance to cross unless you do have ADD.
Click to expand...
Agree. It ties up the radio and delays everyone's operation.
 
roncachamp said:
Now the wording is "runway xx, taxi via..."
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I believe you but I've heard it the other way around ("Taxi runway xx..." vs "Runway xx, taxi...) enough times that I thought both were OK.
 
gismo said:
I believe you but I've heard it the other way around ("Taxi runway xx..." vs "Runway xx, taxi...) enough times that I thought both were OK.
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Here's the "textbook" answer from the ATC Handbook, Section 3-7-2:
b. When authorizing an aircraft to taxi to an assigned takeoff runway, state the departure runway followed by the specific taxi route. Issue hold short restrictions when an aircraft will be required to hold short of a runway or other points along the taxi route.
PHRASEOLOGY-
Runway (number), taxi via (route as necessary).

or

Runway (number), taxi via (route as necessary)(hold short instructions as necessary).”
EXAMPLE-
“Runway Three-Six Left, taxi via taxiway Alpha, hold short of taxiway Charlie.”

or

“Runway Three-Six Left, taxi via Alpha, hold short of Charlie.”

or

“Runway Three-Six Left, taxi via taxiway Alpha, hold short of Runway Two-Seven Right.”

or

“Runway Three-Six Left, taxi via Charlie, cross Runway Two-Seven Left, hold short of Runway Two-Seven Right.”

or

“Runway Three-Six Left, taxi via Alpha, Charlie, cross Runway One-Zero.”

c. Aircraft/vehicles must receive a clearance for each runway their route crosses. An aircraft/vehicle must have crossed a previous runway before another runway crossing clearance may be issued.
NOTE-
A clearance is required for aircraft/vehicles to operate on any active, inactive, or closed runway except for vehicles operating on closed runways in accordance with a Letter of Agreement (LOA).
EXAMPLE-
“Cross Runway One-Six Left, hold short of Runway One-Six Right.”
Click to expand...
 
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