Talk to me about becoming an A&P

RBBailey

RBBailey

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RBBailey
I've been out of the loop on things for 20+ years, so I don't know if this is a normal thing, or if this is something outlandish and stupid, but I've got a cunning plan.... maybe.

I teach high school, and I retire in about 8 years. I don't want to sit on my butt when I retire, but I don't want to have a 9-5 job either. I want to get back into aviation, but I'm unsure if I will ever fly again (see my other posts).

How stupid is it of me to imagine that in the next 8 years I could somehow log shop time to become qualified to take the tests? Am I completely mad? At this point, I'm not even sure of what I'm asking, or what questions to ask. But I've done a bit of reading on what it takes to be an A&P, etc...

What can you tell me? What do I need to know? Thanks!
 
RBBailey said:
What can you tell me? What do I need to know? Thanks!
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RBBailey said:
I could somehow log shop time to become qualified to take the tests?
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There are several threads on PoA about this topic with fairly current info. But since you are in the education system look for a technical school or CC that offers A&P classes. THis is the quickest way to get one. To find out about going the aviation experience route contact your local FSDO and speak to an ASI who oversees the maintenance side. Inquire with him what he will want in the way of experience records in order to issue you the A&P authorization forms to take the A&P tests. These ASI requirements tend to be subjective to specific location vs a general requirement nation-wide. Then you can decide which method to use.
 
Good info!

Going the CC route is the best route, but I'm just not sure how I would schedule it. It would be a sure-thing if I could get the financing and the scheduling figured out.

However, my initial thinking is to take the on the job route for a few reasons.
First, because if I ever do start flying again, there is a chance that I may end up in a partnership in owning an aircraft, and the knowledge I would gain would be important and valuable even if I never get certified.
Second, I could work as a volunteer on my weekends, on the odd days when I don't have work, or after work. And during my summer months. Really, I would only want my logbook checked off as compensation.

Is this something that is frowned upon these days? Is it even realistic?

Also, I searched for threads on this topic, but I'm coming up with nothing. I'm sure I'm just using the wrong terminology for the search.
 
If you were truly cunning, you’d know the answers to your questions and have the plan laid out.

In regards, to how realistic it is for you to log shop time over the next few years, I can only ask the following. How would we know? We don’t know the local shops in your area or their willingness to take someone on as an apprentice or mechanic’s helper.

But as @Bell206 noted and he is a good one to listen to on such issues, it might be a good idea to ask an airworthiness ASI. Not only could they explain the process to you, but they might know of a shop willing to take you on. But, I do disagree with him a bit on the worth of asking the ASI what they personally will want as far as records because in eight years, they might have moved on or might not be the ASI who draws the assignment. However, as long as they follow the order, it really shouldn’t matter from one to the other. Theoretically.

Just realize that if you pursue one rating at a time, you will need 36 months of logged experience (18 each). If you pursue them at the same time, you only need 30 months. Note that period of time is based on a full time schedule or 2080 hour work year, so if you are only working part time, it will take longer than 30 or 36 months, maybe twice as long. But you have 8 years, right?

But as I stated early in this missive, whether it is possible for you to do it is beyond our abilities to prognosticate. We don’t know your local shops. Well I don’t. Maybe someone else does. But then they would need to know where you are located at which is a detail omitted from your post.
 
SkyDog58 said:
...We don’t know the local shops in your area or their willingness to take someone on as an apprentice or mechanic’s helper.
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Actually, that pretty much is the answer I was fishing for.

And, yes, the long period of time in logging shop hours is why I'm starting to look at my retirement options from 8 years out. One of the options I'm toying with is to try making some contacts this spring/summer, to see if I really like the idea once getting a taste of it. Then I could plan to retire a year or two early in order to attend a certified school.

Obviously, this is all speculation at this point, so I appreciate the info. It's helping me think through these ideas.
 
I would do an approved state school and be done with it. 24 months if I remember correctly.
 
I just asked my FSDO directly what they wanted to see for experience. They said FAR Part 147 (Certification of A&P schools) -- it's basically a full syllabus. I lined out my hours of experience to that syllabus and had 80% coverage of the topic line-items, which was their target. Then I provided a supporting letter from my supervising IA which earned me the interview to give me the permission to sit the exams and practical exam.

That exam was harder than my CFI Initial

The process was a hoot. Go for it. I did my exams and practical prep at Bakers in TN which is pretty much a puppy mill for mechanics. I found it really good for my confidence -- not because I'm a great wrench, but there were a ton of ex-military folks certifying and... well... they weren't the strongest in academics.
 
RBBailey said:
I searched for threads on this topic, but I'm coming up with nothing.
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Here is a link to the Order mentioned above. If I recall the info you have in this thread is close to what was in those other threads.
https://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch5,Sec2
RBBailey said:
Is this something that is frowned upon these days? Is it even realistic?
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As noted above you'll have to determine if the opportunities are there. But its definitely worth the effort to find out. The numbers of independent APIAs are slowly declining as the older ones retire and the youngers ones stick to 135/121 ops where the money is better. What have you got to lose? Good luck.
SkyDog58 said:
I do disagree with him a bit on the worth of asking the ASI what they personally will want as far as records because in eight years, they might have moved on or might not be the ASI who draws the assignment.
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Agree. It seems to be a bit dated now especially with his time frame.
 
Vincennes University (IIRC) has a program at Indianapolis International Airport, with free tuition for students 60 and over. Perhaps someone local to you has something like that.
 
Another option I've heard of people doing is building an eab for the hours rather than school.
 
Racerx said:
Another option I've heard of people doing is building an eab for the hours rather than school.
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FYI: there have been some changes to this. I don't think the building side or builders log still counts as experience toward an A&P. As I recall once an E/AB receives its AWC then an E/AB repairman can log his experience the same as an LSA repairman can toward an A&P. The EAA should have the latest on this.
 
Other than having something to do to make some cash after retiring, being able to fly my own plane with better mechanical knowledge is part of why I'm looking into this. If I were to wave a magic wand and make it work perfectly, I would find an A&P mechanic who would work with me on rebuilding a project aircraft while signing my logs. I'd buy the plane, he'd sign the logs as we do a complete refurb on something like a 182, and he'd earn a share of the ownership in the aircraft.

But that's a dream for another life...
 
I worked part time at a repair station. The shop was service center for a couple different manufacturers. Worked on SEL up to light jet. Was able to gain experience on piston, jet, turbo prop, pressurization etc. they also had an avionics shop in house so I worked on installation and repair work. Took about 5.5 years working part time to document everything for hours and subject areas. Even went through training to do the oh-crap chute replacement on those little plastic airplanes. Then I went to bakers…

I enjoyed the process and would recommend getting it done.
 
Where are you?

Just about ANY project can provide time you can log.
Would you want to wind up with a Stinson or Tri-pacer as well?
Maybe even a WACO? You will need additional task areas but a lot of time can be “served” in your own garage. ESSENTIAL is finding an A & P that will work with you.Flying Clubs are another possibility for experience.

Your qualification is based on FAR 65.77, Do not let anyone talk you out of logging some tasks you perform. Let the FSDO Folks decide that. Troubleshooting and parts research is part of the job as is Technical Research.

You don’t need a specific form to log the time. What is important is that YOU make the entries and have the Tech sign regularly. DO NOT wait until the project is finished.
 
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Racerx said:
Another option I've heard of people doing is building an eab for the hours rather than school.
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You have to be employed and (to track hours) and have an A&P sign off on your tasks. Building an E/AB in your garage is not going to get you anywhere.

Before you say 'but I can volunteer and not get paid' good luck getting a FSDO to sign off on your hours that way.

Being an apprentice is the hardest way to get the sign off. First you have to find a shop that will do it, then you have to actually do it, for 36 months, and somehow cover all the material needed. What shop does fabric/composite/ICE/turbine etc etc etc to get you signed off on those areas??

Save up your cash, get into a 12-18 month A&P program (pt 147) and get it done and over with. If you live in a state with free CC for HS grads you should be able to find a CC that has an A&P class and get it done for free.

DO NOT SPEND $30k+ AT AIM or RIDDLE. You get the exact same sign certification from a CC for less than $10k
 
Magman said:
Where are you?
Not only EAB but just about ANY project can provide time you can log.
Would you want to wind up with a Stinson or Tri-pacer as well?
Maybe even a WACO? You will need additional task areas but a lot of time can be “served” in your own garage. ESSENTIAL is finding an A & P that will work with you.Flying Clubs are another possibility for experience.

Your qualification is based on FAR 65.77, Do not let anyone talk you out of logging some tasks you perform. Let the FSDO Folks decide that. Troubleshooting and parts research is part of the job as is Technical Research.

You don’t need a specific form to log the time. What is important is that YOU make the entries and have the Tech sign regularly. DO NOT wait until the project is finished.
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You ABSOLUTELY need to log accurate time. Go ahead and show up with years worth of random scraps of papers and see how it goes for you.

The A&P doesn't 'work with you' they must SUPERVISE. What A&P is going to want to babysit you for 30 months?

While working on an E/AB can qualify as experience, its up to the FSDO if they actually count it. Since an E/AB does not have a TCDS, SMs, Parts Manuals etc you are going to have HUGE holes in your knowledge. How can you properly rig an E/AB unless there are specs to rig it to? What about a cable tension gauge? Protractor? etc? Research an AD? etc etc etc

Show up for your airframe O&P having never services an oleo, cycled retracts, or a hydraulic actuator etc you're just gonna waste $600+ dollars.
 
Let’s not make up our own rules. The reg states “ Satisfactory to the Administrator” and that can and does take many forms. Where did you come up with “scraps of paper”?

A School Superintendent/photographer rebuilt a couple 30’s era biplanes that I’m sure were seen by many on this forum as they were awarded bronze Lindys.
He had pictures and a log entry for every day of the multi- thousand hour projects.
This person wanted to pursue the same course as the OP. After paying the low-life IA to work with him; ( supervise) the IA refused to verify the work hours. The Superintendent/photog occasionally subs as a Principal when not exercising the privileges of his A&P (IA) on biplane #3.

There is also nothing about “employed” . There ARE A&P’s that will supervise projects and verify your time. More than 1 Tech can be involved and no one has to commit to 30 months of over-seeing.

You can buy a A&P Logbook or use a spiral wound notebook to document your efforts and have them verified. Just do it!
 
My boss is a college grad, A/P, and ATP Capn. He said the A/P checkride was the most difficult of them all.

I say go for it, I’d like to do it one day.
 
Interesting....

Well, don't get me wrong, I'm only dreaming of the perfect scenario. But from what is mentioned above, that wouldn't work either. I didn't see anything in the regs in my very quick scan, but I guess you have to actually be employed to be able to log hours?
So if I went out and rented a hangar, and if I build a basic service shop in that hangar, and if I hire an A&P to work out of my shop in that hangar; I could not then log shop hours in my logbook when I perform maintenance and repairs on the various aircraft that come in and out of my own shop? Seems like a strange regulation.

I'm going to continue looking into this, and I really appreciate the feedback. I'll be looking at both possible routes, but a quick look at the local college schedule shows that I would have to quit my job to take the courses. So if this is going to happen, it will have to happen after an early retirement, or while working as an apprentice to someone who can put up with me asking lots of questions! That said, I'm not adverse to paying for the apprenticeship in some capacity.

By the way, I'd be looking to fly/turn wrenches out of KTTD or one of the small airports to the south of there.
 
Note I have deleted “ building an EAB” in post #14 from the possible ways to gather experience for the Certificate. This is based on somewhat recent changes. Put ALL your card on the table and let the FSDO Folks decide.

Don’t take a knife to a gun fight!
 
rotormatic1 said:
https://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch5,Sec2
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The practical experience must provide the applicant with basic knowledge of and skills in the procedures, practices, materials, tools, machine tools, and equipment used in aircraft construction, alteration, maintenance, and inspection. All applicants who apply based on experience only must have verifiable experience in 50 percent of the subject areas listed for the rating sought (refer to part 147 appendices B, C, and D) in order to be eligible. There is no expectation that an applicant be highly proficient in overhauls, major repairs, or major alterations in the minimum 18/30 months of experience. Types of practical experience that may be evaluated are (see evaluating procedures in subparagraph 5-1134D)

Applicants with airframe and/or powerplant mechanic’s helper experience may have a letter signed by an FAA mechanic with an A&P rating who supervised the helper’s work. The letter must have verifiable experience listed in 50 percent of the subject areas listed in part 147 appendices B, C, and D for the rating sought in order to be eligible. All experience must add up to 18/30 months for the rating(s) sought.

Applicants who have Light-Sport Repairman/Experimental Amateur-Built Aircraft Repairman Certificates may present documentation to verify practical experience in 50 percent of the subject areas listed in part 147 appendices B, C, and D for the rating(s) sought in order to be eligible. All experience must add up to 18/30 months for the rating(s) sought.

Any combination of the above practical experience listed that meets the 18/30-month requirement and task listing for the rating(s) sought.

NOTE: Manufacturing of any type of aircraft, including amateur-built experimental, does not count towards practical experience. However, practical experience gained on amateur-built aircraft after the aircraft has received an Airworthiness Certificate may count.
 
RBBailey said:
I guess you have to actually be employed to be able to log hours?
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No. There is no "employment" requirement in either the regulation 65.77 or in the FAA Policy Order 8900.1 linked in post 9 and 19. The Order lists the methods you need to follow. But if you want to further your journey toward an AP now, you have several options. One, you can look for a LSA club in your area/region and pursue a LSA-M repairman certificate which could possibly open opportunities to work on and fly Light-Sport aircraft. The LSA-M cert experience is eligible toward your AP cert. Or you could download the existing free FAA Handbooks that teach the knowledge requirements for the AP General, Airframe, Powerplant certs. Plus there are tons of other information out there that as an AP you will need to know. Keep in mind that AP cert does not give you instant experience. So if an AP is in your future there are ways to go about it during your next 8 years if you so choose.
 
There is no way to tip-toe into this....you either want it or you don't. If you do want it you have to dive in head first and go for it. It's a +2 year deal to learn enough to pass the written (3 tests) and practicle tests. It's more work than the private, instrument, and commercial combine.

If you do decide you want it....the community college is the easiest route IMHO.
 
Put me in the column of those saying your experience does not have to be employment based. There are people who have obtained their experience via volunteer work such as with various aviation organizations and mission groups by working with their certificated mechanic. However, being an employee and having paystubs can aid in authentication of your experience. So it can only help but is not a requirement.

As others have stated, you should absolutely get a log book and document each task that you accomplish. Have the supervising mechanic sign the entries if he will. Also get a letter of recommendation from him. If for some reason either you or the mechanic move on, get a letter showing your efforts to date. You do not need one final all encompassing letter.

Attend IA seminars and get to know other mechanics and inspectors along with the ASIs at your local FSDO. The more contacts that you make, the better. Gives you options for additional work and different or more diverse tasks.

Another thing to do to show that you did the work is to follow 43.9 and get copies of the entries to add to your portfolio. There is nothing quite like required maintenance entries with your name on them to prove you did the work. See part in red below.

43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with Part 91, Part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419of this chapter).
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed.
 
Good stuff. Lots of solid info in the last few posts here.

I'm going to proceed with looking into this. I'm currently waiting on the FAA to give me my Class III medical, and if that happens, I'm jumping right back into the aviation community. (I did get a biannual sign-off after 20 years of not being in the cockpit, but I've been waiting on the FAA for 1.7 years since then, so I'm hoping this summer will mean that door opens for me to get another biannual, and then to actually be able to start flying again...)

If I do start flying again, I will use that time to try to get mechanical experience locally through the contacts I make and the shops where the aircraft I rent are serviced. If I don't start flying again, I may pursue this even so. I will start networking and getting into the community in other ways. One way or another, I will be looking to start logging experience, but will assume that I will go to a 2-year school after I retire. This will mean that I 'should be' certified by the time I'm 60 years old.

I'm pretty excited about this. I had planned on trying to run multiple vacation rental properties (we have one right now) as a way of making some cash after retirement. But that just sounds boring. And I really don't want to be one of those teachers that comes back as a substitute after I retire. Even if I'm no longer allowed to fly, this would at least get me back into aviation.
 
I retired from the Air Force in 2006 after 24 years; ten as a jet engine mechanic and fourteen as an air traffic controller. I was hired as a civilian controller right after I took off the uniform and plan to retire again in 2026 if I can stand it until then. (for another time in another thread) Anyway, I've been working with two of the best A&P mechanics on the planet for the past five and a half years. One who has been an A&P just about all his life and the other who has been an A&P for almost three years but has worked on aircraft for much longer. The latter is also a member of this forum...hi Ryan. I know a lot about jet engines having torn them down, built them up, installed them in aircraft and ran them on a test cell, installed in the aircraft or on the test stand. I knew absolutely nothing about GA piston engines five years ago or anything else GA for that matter. But now, I'm pretty sure I have enough experience logged that I am eligible to make an appointment with the FSDO to get authorization to take the A&P tests. I don't want to be someone who just knows the minimums both in experience and knowledge in order to take the tests. My plan was to take my FSDO sign off and attend Bakers in Tennessee but I've learned that there is another similar school right here in Tucson. It is a bit more expensive but by the time I factor in air fare and hotel expenses for Bakers, it is actually less expensive to attend locally. I would really like to do this in 2022 and I hope I can. I also realize that I will NEVER know everything there is and I will always need help and always seek the knowledge and advice of those with more experience. Just like a pilot's certificate, an A&P is always learning.

Good luck in what you want to do, I'm doing the same thing.
 
It would be prudent if the OP becomes familiar with all of the requirements to get the A & P. There are items in the tests that you are not likely to encounter when gaining experience. My reference is primarily to the GENERAL area which is made up of topics that apply to both the A and the P.

included in GENERAL are Physics (Basic Science) , Math , Drawing and Basic Electrical. These would comprise about 40% of a typical GENERAL test.
Whether it’s initial introduction or a review competency in these sections needed.

There are also other non FAA certified sources that may build your knowledge base.
An Adult Ed night class in Welding would be useful. There are workshops at Oshkosh / Airventure that can provide an intro. The Fabric Folks had traveling seminars at one time . Today there are webinars on many subjects.

My point is; you don’t not have to wait to retire to get started. Do it now!

Eight years ago I discussed the options of getting the A & P with someone with a non-aviation related job. Now he is an A&P (IA) , CSEL, Instrument Rated, CFI and is an Inspector at a noted Aircraft Components manufacturer. Plus he.owns his own aircraft. All of this was done piece meal; with no full-time school.
 
For what it's worth, I've held my ratings for nearly 3 years now. I came by my experience honestly and organically, and to the satisfaction of FSDO and my practical examiner -- but I may still attend certain courses at the local A&P school because I have gaps in my knowledge that will crop up. For now, I have a lot of assistance and talent I can draw upon for help, but if I did not have that, I would likely not exercise my privileges. It's a skilled trade that needs constant mentorship to grow in and become proficient, and it is criminal that GA A&Ps are paid so little.

If I had it to do over, I would personally and strongly consider the vocational school route instead of the defense-of-experience route. Mainly because you get the experience and the theory in a structured and integrated way. It is a LOT of responsibility and a LOT of skills get woven together in the act of maintenance, even for the most trivial operations sometimes. I fear that parts of the full curriculum would be very slow/plodding, but I know there are gems to be mined from a school curriculum that I'd rather not pick out of my own airframe. :D

$0.02
 
Magman said:
My point is; you don’t not have to wait to retire to get started. Do it now!

Eight years ago I discussed the options of getting the A & P with someone with a non-aviation related job. Now he is an A&P (IA) , CSEL, Instrument Rated, CFI and is an Inspector at a noted Aircraft Components manufacturer. Plus he.owns his own aircraft. All of this was done piece meal; with no full-time school.
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Yes. This is why I'm starting this whole process now. I am a quick learner with concepts and in using my hands; but I'm also not so great with overall memory of details. I have to layer on, and layer on, over the course of time. The regulations, the processes, the details, details, details are going to be the hard part for me. This is one reason why, whether I go to school or not, I'm thinking this summer is when I get started down this road. The more I can learn ahead of time, the more likely it is I will be successful if/when I do go to school.
 
Also logs are not required. Letters from the people supervising your apprenticeship documenting your time and subject areas of experience are sufficient. I had three letters and no logs for my interview at the fsdo.
 
RBBailey said:
I'm also not so great with overall memory of details.
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RBBailey said:
the details, details, details are going to be the hard part for me.
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FWIW: Perhaps its merely semantics on your part, but don’t sweat the details. Many years ago one of my mentors in aircraft mx had what appeared to be an amazing ability of mental prowess. When asked a technical or regulatory question, he would turn around in his desk chair, stare at a wall of manuals, pluck a manual out, and turn to the page that had the correct answer. And this was before the internet. When I finally asked how he could memorize such volumes of information, he laughed, shook his head, and said he didn’t memorize the specific answer, instead he just knew where to find the answer. That’s the key to being a good mechanic, learn/know the aircraft mx system inside and out and the "details" will take care of themselves.
 
It’s not what is and is not required . It’s “ Satisfactory to the Administrator”.
Keeping a journal/ log is a pia but not particularly difficult. Many supervising Techs will not write the letter w/o the Log. If the FSDO Folks have not actually observed you accumulating your time or not be familiar with the Super they may want more details. It can also be a good reason to take a trip out of the office to
go over your records and your project.

I know of one person that used the Log to get a good position.

There are also despicable AMTs that take advantage of the free labor and keep the apprentice on the string for additional years. One decided he would not provide a letter after years of service due to IRS concerns .

Keep the Log current as a relationship can change quickly . A & P’s are not exempt from death.
 
Bell206 said:
FWIW: Perhaps its merely semantics on your part, but don’t sweat the details. Many years ago one of my mentors in aircraft mx had what appeared to be an amazing ability of mental prowess. When asked a technical or regulatory question, he would turn around in his desk chair, stare at a wall of manuals, pluck a manual out, and turn to the page that had the correct answer. And this was before the internet. When I finally asked how he could memorize such volumes of information, he laughed, shook his head, and said he didn’t memorize the specific answer, instead he just knew where to find the answer. That’s the key to being a good mechanic, learn/know the aircraft mx system inside and out and the "details" will take care of themselves.
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Funny, the best piece of schooling I got wasn't from a teacher (shocker) but rather a welding instructor... someone that actually did something outside of school. Sorry teachers. "Don't waste your time trying to memorize ANYTHING. Just know where to find everything"

But there goes my hopes of building an eab to get my a&p so I can tinker with restorations.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Also logs are not required. Letters from the people supervising your apprenticeship documenting your time and subject areas of experience are sufficient. I had three letters and no logs for my interview at the fsdo.
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Maybe. Maybe not. The order does say this:

2) Applicants with airframe and/or powerplant mechanic’s helper experience may have a letter signed by an FAA mechanic with an A&P rating who supervised the helper’s work. The letter must have verifiable experience listed in 50 percent of the subject areas listed in
part 147 appendices B, C, and D for the rating sought in order to be eligible. All experience must add up to 18/30 months for the rating(s) sought.

How better to have verifiable experience than to have a log with dates, aircraft type, N#, etc? The A&P writing the letter just saying that the applicant has the requisite experience does not make it so. I don’t think it would satisfy very many ASIs, especially those who give a damn.
 
Doing an oil change hundreds of times, swapping out a couple of vacuum pumps or alternators, removing and replacing hundreds of inspection covers and the countless other mundane maintenance tasks that make up the bulk of a typical shop's assignments for the non-A&P worker is not going to sufficiently train the aspiring mechanic to get his certificate in a reasonable time frame. In an approved two year course, you'll be familiar with everything because it will be documented in the syllabus and your evaluations. Sure, it can be done ala carte, but it would be a real bummer to invest years working in a shop and having to do your own documentation, getting it certified by a supervising A&P, all for nothing because the current FSDO inspector doesn't accept it or you fail the tests due to a lack of knowledge gained at the shop you worked at for little to no compensation. I retired from the Air Force with no maintenance background, went to the local CC for two years, enjoyed myself immensely using mostly their equipment including training simulators and cut-away training displays, on everything from a 65hp piston engine to a turbojet, and passed all the tests without any drama. No stress on whether my "paperwork" would be accepted or worry that there were "holes" in my training. I'm not saying you wouldn't learn lots of good things to know-- like how to remove a broken stud, stripped screw, or stubborn accessory, by working under the supervision of a skilled mechanic. I'm just saying the written certification process will be testing mostly book learning and the practical test will be fairly basic wrenching/repair work where proper procedure trumps innovative technique.
 
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SkyDog58 said:
Maybe. Maybe not. The order does say this:

2) Applicants with airframe and/or powerplant mechanic’s helper experience may have a letter signed by an FAA mechanic with an A&P rating who supervised the helper’s work. The letter must have verifiable experience listed in 50 percent of the subject areas listed in
part 147 appendices B, C, and D for the rating sought in order to be eligible. All experience must add up to 18/30 months for the rating(s) sought.

How better to have verifiable experience than to have a log with dates, aircraft type, N#, etc? The A&P writing the letter just saying that the applicant has the requisite experience does not make it so. I don’t think it would satisfy very many ASIs, especially those who give a damn.
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A log is one way to comply with that guidance. Or on the other hand you could do exactly what it tells you to do and bring a letter. Yes, a log will suffice but it is not required.

Your assertion that a letter stating experience signed by a certified mechanic is not valid or somehow false just because you think a log is better is not supported by the regulations. Besides that it’s just as easy to lie in a logbook. The only thing that makes it legitimate is the integrity of the person making the documents.
 
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If someone is making a decision of whether to go the FAR 65.77 Experience or the FAR 147 AMT School route it could resolve with how you intend to use the Certificate.Both methods have advantages; but no free lunch.

Understanding what and how it is to be taught will help to gain an understanding of the differences. Time spent with FAR 147 and AC 147 app 5 will provide some of the “ what and how” of the process.

The multitude of topics all have a Skill Level of 1, 2 or 3.
Relating these to a topic such as Welding :

Level 1 - Basic Knowledge - minimal hands- on. Ie. Welding Magnesium

Level 2- Knowledge & some hands-on proficiency - ie Gas welding a toolbox.

Level 3- Return to service proficiency - ie Inspection of welds

Most subject areas in the curriculum are Level 1 or 2 and a few are Level 3. In what I call the “Antique Arts “ ( wood, fabric , paint and welding ) it is almost exclusively Level 1 or 2. I believe Reciprocating Engine Overhaul has been downgraded to Level 2.

Committees periodically review the Part 147 Curriculum and propose changes.
AMT Schools can also make some changes to help graduates target career options.
This is done to attempt to have the majority of students meet the current needs of the Aerospace Industry.

There are also courses taught outside of the A & P Certification world that will help achieve skills in a particular area. I’ve heard a lot of good things about the Lycoming Engine Overhaul course. Abaris is noted for training with composites.
 
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