Talk me out of the Ford Panther platform (NA, obviously)

Jim K

Jim K

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My oldest kid will be taking driver's ed this year. I always figured I'd buy a project car and have her help fix it, but life is way too busy right now and she has zero interest in cars. We rented a Malibu in Texas, and she thought that was great. That or a Tesla she says :rolleyes:

Anyway I'm shopping for something that she can drive to school & work, and hopefully will last through the next couple kids. I've set an arbitrary budget of $5000, as I don't want a 16yo destroying something nice. I really wanted to get a manual, but I'm not doing a clutch job on a FWD, which pretty much leaves Rangers (possibility) and Mustangs (usually rough and/or 25 years old) . At least four seats would be nice so she can haul her siblings around for us.

I'm seeing lots of Focuses, which would be fine. The occasional Corolla or Civic. But I'm also seeing lots of Town Cars, Grand Marquis, and Crown Vics. It just seems like so much more car for the money. I've ridden in panther platform taxis with well over 300k miles. I'm not sure even a teenager could destroy one, especially if I get a crown vic with the pushbar still on it.

I'm sorely tempted to go that route. I know the fuel mileage will be worse, and it'll be harder for her to park, and she'll be the one hauling all her friends around in her giant car.... but I think one of these things might make it through all 5 kids (if one doesn't wreck it). If they do wreck it, i can't think of anything in this price range I'd rather they be in. My wife says it'll be embarrassing for her, but I see that as a feature... motivation to save her money and buy her own car.
 
Jim K said:
My oldest kid will be taking driver's ed this year. I always figured I'd buy a project car and have her help fix it, but life is way too busy right now and she has zero interest in cars. We rented a Malibu in Texas, and she thought that was great. That or a Tesla she says :rolleyes:

Anyway I'm shopping for something that she can drive to school & work, and hopefully will last through the next couple kids. I've set an arbitrary budget of $5000, as I don't want a 16yo destroying something nice. I really wanted to get a manual, but I'm not doing a clutch job on a FWD, which pretty much leaves Rangers (possibility) and Mustangs (usually rough and/or 25 years old) . At least four seats would be nice so she can haul her siblings around for us.

I'm seeing lots of Focuses, which would be fine. The occasional Corolla or Civic. But I'm also seeing lots of Town Cars, Grand Marquis, and Crown Vics. It just seems like so much more car for the money. I've ridden in panther platform taxis with well over 300k miles. I'm not sure even a teenager could destroy one, especially if I get a crown vic with the pushbar still on it.

I'm sorely tempted to go that route. I know the fuel mileage will be worse, and it'll be harder for her to park, and she'll be the one hauling all her friends around in her giant car.... but I think one of these things might make it through all 5 kids (if one doesn't wreck it). If they do wreck it, i can't think of anything in this price range I'd rather they be in. My wife says it'll be embarrassing for her, but I see that as a feature... motivation to save her money and buy her own car.
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And the Crown Vic has a really big backseat.
 
Carrying friends around may not be an issue depending on what your state laws are for teen drivers. In CT they need to hold a learners permit for 4 to 6 months then when they get the actual license it’s another 12 months before they can drive with any non family members. Essentially they will be 18 before hauling friends around.

I would be looking for something smaller with four doors, good gas mileage, and cheap to work on and insure. There is a reason Corolla’s and civics are so popular and larger rear wheel drive v8’s are so cheap.

It’s a kids first car. But something practical, not what you wish you had as a kid.
 
Who wanted a crown Vic as a kid?
Last year in our county, two drunk kids died when their Honda Civic had a head on with a Ford F250. The guy in the F250 walked away. The situation was actually way worse but you got the drift. I would go with a single cab pick up truck. And a load of firewood in the back.
 
Is insurance priced differently based on number of seats/size of vehicle for young drivers? Just thinking that medical payments would be more costly in an at-fault accident if you had 6 seats vs. 2-4. Dunno.. Just spitballing. I'm still a few years around from going down this path, which is why there is still a 2003 Jeep Wrangler sitting in the back yard right now.
 
Late 60s Lincoln Continental
 
My youngest got a Mercury Grand Marquis as her first car…given to her by her grandfather. Gets her back and forth to school, and it’s fairly bomb-proof. Probably outlast us all.
 
FWIW. I have 198,000 miles on the original clutch in my 08 Ford Focus.

But, then again, I tend to abuse it by pulling trailers (try to keep it under 1500 pounds) and I used to do a lot of engine off coasting.
 
The Panther platform is great. I had a Town Car in college for senior year, and I loved it. She may not, but it's a good, solid car, reliable platform, basically indestructible. Buy it.
 
I had a Crown Vic as a company car. Loved it. They did that one right. Bonus - people move out of your way on the freeway. Negative - people slow down in front of you on the highway.

One time I was going way fast heading towards a busy intersection. I knew I was going to blow the light. And to add to it, there was even a Vallejo PD motor cop sitting there at the corner! I thought I was a goner. But he waved me through!
 
I've got two Grand Marquis

The first one I bought on Feb 2021, was a 2004 a bit overpriced at $2500 112K miles with a cracked windshield and needing all new tires. This car recently got a new windshield wiper motor as well. I put all new brakes on it too. Its my daily driver and almost all city miles. I do have a set of snow tires on ratty corroded wheels that I put on in the winter. It handles winter as good as any front wheel drive sedan IMHO, as they do have basic traction control systems. This one seems to be leaking on the RH axle seal which I haven't gotten around to fix, it started this year.
1692714546343.png

The second I bought June 2021, is 2005 that was a good buy at $3500. 139K miles Cracked windshield and need the dash removed to fix a HVAC hinge. Its in amazing condition. Came with nearly new tires and good brakes. I drive this during non-winter months and highway traveling. This one is throttle by wire and it not as smooth accelerating from a dead stop. This one had a diode on the alternator puke and eat the battery sitting in storage so I just bit the bullet and got a reman at the Ford dealer for a trip I was driving the next day. New Walmart battery and alternator was $558 and I did the labor myself, super easy to swap.
1692714377826.png

All Panthers have plastic intake manifolds and risks of coolant leak problems, not a horrible job for DIYer.

All of them have electronic blend door actuator in the HVAC box that is a ***** to replace.

Windshields are around $250 with parts & labor

All the wiper system logic is inside the wiper motor assembly. The drain holes in the wiper tray get full of mud and leaves and eventually water gets in the logic and wipers do crazy things. Takes about 2.5 hours to swap the motor and clean out the tray. pretty easy job.

The HVAC controller (the head unit you change settings on) is electronic and controls vacuum solenoids. The head unit has a few small oring on them and it starts leaking vacuum and eventually you can lose control of the HVAC box which defaults to defroster with no vacuum power. A $1 in oring and a couple hours fixes that easy.

If equipped with power adjustable pedals, almost certainly to have a stripped plastic gear in the actuator. A freelance machinist was making brass replacement gears for these, I bought a few of them and they work fine.

The heat & air-conditioning has been solid on both of them.

I've heard power window regulators are a nuisance have not had any break yet.

Radiator fan power connector can be a problem.

Transmissions are decent but have their own problems. The rubber seals bonded to the pistons, accumulators, and servos get really hard & brittle and eventually start leaking. Its pretty common to lose overdrive as the servo piston leaks and the band gets burnt up. A few hard parts are weak but still get many many miles out of them.

Starter swaps suck, one bolt is hard to access and I think most cases a guy rushes and rounds off a bolt. I have swapped the starter on my 2004, the old one was working fine I just wanted to do it. It took me maybe two hours with the front wheels on ramps.

If I could find one or two more like the 2005 near that price, I'd have one or two more of them.

Big Sedan with baby V8, never gonna get 18 MPG in town.

The 2005 can get 28 MPG on the highway but barely. If there is wind or a running stop somewhere its gonna average 25 or less.

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Side impact rating is marginal or poor IIRC. 2005 and on have additional airbags in the seat back to help but it did not realy score better than the old design, again IIRC.
 

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bnt83 said:
I've got two Grand Marquis

The first one I bought on Feb 2021, was a 2004 a bit overpriced at $2500 112K miles with a cracked windshield and needing all new tires. This car recently got a new windshield wiper motor as well. I put all new brakes on it too. Its my daily driver and almost all city miles. I do have a set of snow tires on ratty corroded wheels that I put on in the winter. It handles winter as good as any front wheel drive sedan IMHO, as they do have basic traction control systems. This one seems to be leaking on the RH axle seal which I haven't gotten around to fix, it started this year.
View attachment 119999

The second I bought June 2021, is 2005 that was a good buy at $3500. 139K miles Cracked windshield and need the dash removed to fix a HVAC hinge. Its in amazing condition. Came with nearly new tires and good brakes. I drive this during non-winter months and highway traveling. This one is throttle by wire and it not as smooth accelerating from a dead stop. This one had a diode on the alternator puke and eat the battery sitting in storage so I just bit the bullet and got a reman at the Ford dealer for a trip I was driving the next day. New Walmart battery and alternator was $558 and I did the labor myself, super easy to swap.
View attachment 119998

All Panthers have plastic intake manifolds and risks of coolant leak problems, not a horrible job for DIYer.

All of them have electronic blend door actuator in the HVAC box that is a ***** to replace.

All the wiper system logic is inside the wiper motor assembly. The drain holes in the wiper tray get full of mud and leaves and eventually water gets in the logic and wipers do crazy things. Takes about 2.5 hours to swap the motor and clean out the tray. pretty easy job.

If equipped with power adjustable pedals, almost certainly to have a stripped plastic gear in the actuator. A freelance machinist was making brass replacement gears for these, I bought a few of them and they work fine.

The heat & air-conditioning has been solid on both of them.

I've heard power window regulators are a nuisance have not had any break yet.

Starter swaps suck, one bolt is hard to access and I think most cases a guy rushes and rounds off a bolt. I have swapped the starter on my 2004, the old one was working fine I just wanted to do it. It took me maybe two hours with the front wheels on ramps.

If I could find one or two more like the 2005 near that price, I'd have one or two more of them.
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I bought a 2000 Merc Gran Marquis when I returned from overseas in 2006. It was the most comfortable car I have ever driven.

Cross country trips were enjoyable and I wasn’t exhausted after 12 hours of driving. It got an honest 28mpg on the long flat stretches of interstate with cruise control and 17mpg in the city. I miss that car.
 
aterry1067 said:
I bought a 2000 Merc Gran Marquis when I returned from overseas in 2006. It was the most comfortable car I have ever driven.

Cross country trips were enjoyable and I wasn’t exhausted after 12 hours of driving. It got an honest 28mpg on the long flat stretches of interstate with cruise control and 17mpg in the city. I miss that car.
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They are great cars for the right people. They aren't flashy, not really fast, not loud, spongy suspension and weak gas milage.

My Dad & Mom have always bought brand new cars and his kids got hand-me-downs or used. I asked my dad to go look at the 2004 when I was shopping, and his response was "why the heck do want that pig" then he drove it home once and it changed his mind about their practicality, price and all that. He'd much rather ride in my rusty 2004 than drive a Prius or Jetta across town on the crappy roads we have.

My brother bought his 2015 Honda Accord brand new and at 74K miles he is having some significant noise up front like the CVT is puking. Hes going to change the CV axles and front wheel bearings/hubs himself with new Honda parts and pray it goes away.
 
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Jim K said:
I'm seeing lots of Focuses, which would be fine.
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A Ford Focus is a great vehicle for a student driver to learn to drive in and gain initial experience.

When your #2 child is ready to drive maybe this vehicle could be handed down to let them learn to drive and then upgrade your older child to a different vehicle perhaps with the intent of that vehicle lasting them longer.
 
Currently have '97 Crown Vic that's approaching 200K. The powertrain has been bulletproof and it still runs really well. MPG is around 17 going to work and back, but over 20 on the highway. Beware of fuses. The AC compressor and the turn signals are on the same fuse (ask me how I know), but not the emergency flashers. You can't signal a turn, but you can turn on your emergency flashers...
 
Jim K said:
My oldest kid will be taking driver's ed this year. I always figured I'd buy a project car and have her help fix it, but life is way too busy right now and she has zero interest in cars. We rented a Malibu in Texas, and she thought that was great. That or a Tesla she says :rolleyes:
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Oh father, you just don't understand. She has more interest in cars than you think. She needs a popular girly car to look cool in front of her friends. Something along the lines of a VW Beetle, Ford Mustang, Mini Cooper, the Smart Fortwo or a Mazda Miata. You have an airplane, so you are loaded, right.?? :lol:
 
Jim K said:
My oldest kid will be taking driver's ed this year. I always figured I'd buy a project car and have her help fix it, but life is way too busy right now and she has zero interest in cars. We rented a Malibu in Texas, and she thought that was great. That or a Tesla she says :rolleyes:

Anyway I'm shopping for something that she can drive to school & work, and hopefully will last through the next couple kids. I've set an arbitrary budget of $5000, as I don't want a 16yo destroying something nice. I really wanted to get a manual, but I'm not doing a clutch job on a FWD, which pretty much leaves Rangers (possibility) and Mustangs (usually rough and/or 25 years old) . At least four seats would be nice so she can haul her siblings around for us.

I'm seeing lots of Focuses, which would be fine. The occasional Corolla or Civic. But I'm also seeing lots of Town Cars, Grand Marquis, and Crown Vics. It just seems like so much more car for the money. I've ridden in panther platform taxis with well over 300k miles. I'm not sure even a teenager could destroy one, especially if I get a crown vic with the pushbar still on it.

I'm sorely tempted to go that route. I know the fuel mileage will be worse, and it'll be harder for her to park, and she'll be the one hauling all her friends around in her giant car.... but I think one of these things might make it through all 5 kids (if one doesn't wreck it). If they do wreck it, i can't think of anything in this price range I'd rather they be in. My wife says it'll be embarrassing for her, but I see that as a feature... motivation to save her money and buy her own car.
Click to expand...
Our Crown Vic lasted well over 20 years. Couldn't kill it with a stake through it's heart at midnight. A very quiet ride for such an upright vehicle, and the gas mileage wasn't awful. You could carry a donkey in that trunk, and it had the bullet-proof Ford transmission.

If you go electric, broaden your search beyond Tesla - they've been overtaken in tech, especially in driver assist, by the competetion.
 
Morgan3820 said:
And the Crown Vic has a really big backseat.
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That thought has crossed my mind. This particular kid I'm not worried about those kind of activities, but the next one in line might be more trouble. In reality though, if they want to get up to that kind of stuff a small car won't be an impediment. My highschool girlfriend drove a Nissan Sentra, just sayin'.

kmacht said:
Carrying friends around may not be an issue depending on what your state laws are for teen drivers. In CT they need to hold a learners permit for 4 to 6 months then when they get the actual license it’s another 12 months before they can drive with any non family members. Essentially they will be 18 before hauling friends around.
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Illinois does this too
Morgan3820 said:
I would go with a single cab pick up truck. And a load of firewood in the back.
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Agreed. but pickups in my price range are generally complete rust buckets.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
FWIW. I have 198,000 miles on the original clutch in my 08 Ford Focus.

But, then again, I tend to abuse it by pulling trailers (try to keep it under 1500 pounds) and I used to do a lot of engine off coasting.
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This is really interesting to me. A manual Focus was my first thought, but I've seen a couple with under 100K that said they need a clutch. When I looked into how much work it takes to replace one, I decided that was more than I wanted to deal with. I'm also concerned that a 16 yr old will be fairly abusive to the clutch.

The cars I'm finding in this price bracket basically fall into the following buckets:
-Panther platform
-manual Ranger/S10
-Small FWD (Focus/Cobalt/Corolla)
-larger FWD (Impala/Malibu/Fusion)
 
Sundancer said:
Our Crown Vic lasted well over 20 years. Couldn't kill it with a stake through it's heart at midnight. A very quiet ride for such an upright vehicle, and the gas mileage wasn't awful. You could carry a donkey in that trunk, and it had the bullet-proof Ford transmission.

If you go electric, broaden your search beyond Tesla - they've been overtaken in tech, especially in driver assist, by the competetion.
Click to expand...
Transmissions are decent but have their own problems. The rubber seals bonded to the pistons, accumulators, and servos get really hard & brittle and eventually start leaking. Its pretty common to lose overdrive as the servo piston leaks and the band gets burnt up. A few hard parts are weak but still get many many miles out of them.

I'd like to take the valve bodies out of both and replace all that stuff accessible but just don't have the time to mess with it.
 
One thing that really surprises me about the panthers I have. All the big ground terminals (ring terminals with multiple ground wires on them) are bolted right over a painted surface. I'm surprised there aren't more electrical problems than there are showing up on forums. I took all them apart inthe cabin and engine bay, cleaned all the paint off, blasted it with Corrosion X and reassembled and blasted them again.
 
Ted said:
The Panther platform is great. I had a Town Car in college for senior year, and I loved it. She may not, but it's a good, solid car, reliable platform, basically indestructible. Buy it.
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I agree with Ted. Short of a Civic or Corolla, you won’t find a car that’s as tough as the Panther platform and they have a very good crash test rating. I honestly don’t think you could find a better vehicle for a new driver for the value.
 
Jim K said:
That thought has crossed my mind.
This is really interesting to me. A manual Focus was my first thought, but I've seen a couple with under 100K that said they need a clutch. When I looked into how much work it takes to replace one, I decided that was more than I wanted to deal with. I'm also concerned that a 16 yr old will be fairly abusive to the clutch.

The cars I'm finding in this price bracket basically fall into the following buckets:
-Panther platform
-manual Ranger/S10
-Small FWD (Focus/Cobalt/Corolla)
-larger FWD (Impala/Malibu/Fusion)
Click to expand...

I have no clue if the clutch in the Focus is similar to the one in my 98 Escort coupe I bought as my first car, but that clutch had to have been bulletproof. While I'm sure its first owners babied it, I probably did unspeakable things to it. It was the first car I'd ever driven that was stick shift and I think I stalled it more times the first hour I drove it than it ever had been in the twenty-some preceeding years of its existence. It ran trouble-free and shifted smoothly right up until about 190k miles when a deer decided to commit suicide by Escort.

Also, I love the Crown Vic @2-Bit Speed has. It's like riding a sofa down the highway, but when you step on it, it really moves (unlike the sofa).

By the way, you should tell your daughter that she should be thankful you're even buying her a car if she mentions it being embarrassing to drive a Crown Vic or equivalent because some of us had to survive our teen years being dropped off and picked up in an Econoline 15-passenger van. When you have three potential teen drivers in the house, sometimes it's just impossible to afford the increased insurance premium from adding teen drivers much less buying them all wheels. She should just be thrilled she's got her own car on Daddy's dime. ;) :biggrin:
 
Jim K said:
...

The cars I'm finding in this price bracket basically fall into the following buckets:
-Panther platform
-manual Ranger/S10
-Small FWD (Focus/Cobalt/Corolla)
-larger FWD (Impala/Malibu/Fusion)
Click to expand...

Having owned a 2014 fiesta, I would suggest that you might want to stay away from the "powershift" automatic transmission (hehehheh - I had a typo originally in "powershift"... left off the "f" - quite appropriate). The transmission works, but can be annoying/surprising when first encountered. I had my 2014 for six years and missed my 4wd/awd enough that I eventually purchased a small SUV. I could have kept the fiesta but really wanted the AWD and the extra space.
 
SkyChaser said:
..
By the way, you should tell your daughter that she should be thankful you're even buying her a car if she mentions it being embarrassing to drive a Crown Vic or equivalent because some of us had to survive our teen years being dropped off and picked up in an Econoline 15-passenger van. ...
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heck, some of us bought our own cars.
 
Bob Noel said:
heck, some of us bought our own cars.
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My older brothers were into cars, so I was saving for my first car since I was probably 10. I bought it when I was 15 and pulled the engine due to a seriously leaky rear main seal. Had it back together by the time I was 16. 1980 Trans Am. I loved that car at the time, but in hindsight, it was a terrible decision. It ate all the money I made working in high school between gas, tires, and insurance, and it's a miracle I didn't get killed in it. I didn't ever wreck it, but I did spin it into a field going around a corner too fast. Probably would have rolled over if it wasn't so low to the ground. I also managed to get my license suspended for too many speeding tickets. Kids are dumb. I was not immune.

I feel like the opportunities for kids to have jobs at younger ages aren't what they were when I was a kid. My daughter is just now starting her first real job, and even if she saved every penny from now until her 16th birthday, there's no car she could buy that wouldn't be an unreliable money pit. My theory is that I'm not buying her a car, I'm buying a third family car. Preferably something that isn't up on my lift every week.
 
Bob Noel said:
heck, some of us bought our own cars.
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I would have killed to have my own car as a teen, but my parents didn't pay us kids for our slave labor and said slave labor left no time for outside employment. ;)
 
The mid-00's Infniti G35 is another option I'd look at that should be in your price range. RWD (optional AWD), strong reliable V6, decent styling for the time period. Was a marquis car for Infiniti and was a solid platform.
 
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Ted said:
The Panther platform is great. I had a Town Car in college for senior year, and I loved it. She may not, but it's a good, solid car, reliable platform, basically indestructible. Buy it.
Click to expand...
I would love a Towncar Ultimate L 2005 to 2007 or so. The base model Town Car has ~4" longer wheelbase than the Grand Marquis and the Town Car L versions are 9" longer than my Grand Marquis, all that length is for back seat legroom.
 
I had a 2005 P71 Crown Vic for quite a few years. It was great. I did have to replace the HVAC blend actuator. The previous owner was the Nebraska State Patrol, it only had 80,000 miles on it. I bought it in 2015 (ten years old) and paid $1500.

That all said. I would not choose a rear wheel drive car as a first car for a 16 year old female in an area that gets snow and ice. My opinion would sway if she has experience operating dirt bikes/four wheelers/snowmobiles and that sort of thing. If not, make sure you spend considerable time in an icing parking lot teaching her how the car will behave. You do not want the first time the rear slides out to be in traffic with no experience handling that. Make sure she is comfortable putting the rear into a slide and taking it out of a slide, until then, I wouldn't solo.
 
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The Tesla does have the advantage of really good AWD and the ability to track the car via the app. If that kind of thing appeals to you.
 
I drove a 98 P71 in college and used to be admin on a crown vic forum and I can probably quote or dig up ridiculous amounts of info on them. I think it's a perfect choice for a teenager's first car. Mine had a 3.27 rear end and I got > 20MPG highway easily so the mileage isn't THAT bad, I don't think the 3.55/3.73 versions were that much worse.

I've seen some used Marauders that I've been tempted to buy a few times but my current fleet is already too big and a sedan doesn't really add any new capability or significant enough fun factor to be worth it.
 
jesse said:
I had a 2005 P71 Crown Vic for quite a few years. It was great. I did have to replace the HVAC blend actuator. The previous owner was the Nebraska State Patrol, it only had 80,000 miles on it. I bought it in 2015 (ten years old) and paid $1500.

That all said. I would not choose a rear wheel drive car as a first car for a 16 year old female in an area that gets snow and ice. My opinion would sway if she has experience operating dirt bikes/four wheelers/snowmobiles and that sort of thing. If not, make sure you spend considerable time in an icing parking lot teaching her how the car will behave. You do not want the first time the rear slides out to be in traffic with no experience handling that. Make sure she is comfortable putting the rear into a slide and taking it out of a slide, until then, I wouldn't solo.
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Did that have an open differential or some breed of limited slip? I would think limited slip would be worse than the open diff + traction control.

All good points and was a concern of mine as well. My winter experience has been positive, all I have ever driven here is front wheel drive sedans till I bought these. My short 10-mile commute is mostly flat and mostly strait roads. If I can get out of parking lots I can get across town.

If I had a hospital job such as ER dr, ER nurse or lived in areas with hilly terrain driving weird hours of the day through lots of snowstorms I'd get something else for winter.

I wasn't stuck in these pictures but it seemed close. (again non-studded snow tires on all 4). The owners manual for these tells you to use 2nd gear if 1st is making wheels spin too easy. The traction control just about eliminates rear end fishtail/spinout.

IMG_3030 (1).jpg

IMG_3031 (1).jpg
 
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