Talk me out of a Grumman AA1B

E

Elliot Martin

Filing Flight Plan
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Hello All!

First post, been googling/reading for years. Student pilot here with ambitions to fly for a living.

Thinking of buying a starter airplane in the next 6ish months with the sole purpose of building time, short-medium XC, 90% of the time I will be flying solo. This is not a forever airplane, would like to transition into a Mooney M20C or similar eventually. Needs to be IFR-rated, cheap to maintain, operate, and purchase (will likely be partially financed). I fly out of KBZN (Bozeman, MT, 4473 MSL). It gets cold here, and we get dry snow in the winter. A hangar is cost-prohibitive ($450/mo. +), so the plane will sadly have to live outside unless I get really lucky (this is one of my bigger concerns). Renting at $164/hr to gain enough hours is also cost-prohibitive IMHO.

For those of you that own Grumman AA1_ airplanes, can someone provide a solid argument why I shouldn't consider one as a first airplane? Seems like a decently capable little plane for what they go for. Yes, I know climb performance at gross wt is poor, but we only have 3-4 months out of the year where temps get above 60F. Yes, I know they are short-legged. For training purposes/sightseeing w/ friends, I can always rent the C-172 if necessary.

I have considered the PA-28 140, C-150/172, Beech Sundowner/Musketeer. All of which are viable options, but at a higher price.

I'm just trying to make as much of an educated/financially responsible (if there is such a thing in aircraft ownership) of a decision as possible. Any input is greatly appreciated.
 
Steve Costello said:
Woof. Who is renting what for $164/hr??
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Glass panel IFR 180hp C-172. The other flight school in town only takes students through the local college, long waiting list, and more expensive. Not a lot of options in Bozeman.
 
Pilawt said:
The AA-1 series is excellent start for someone intending to transition to a slick machine like a Mooney.
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My thoughts exactly, based on what I have read. Biggest concern is outside/winter storage and climb performance at high DA w/ the O-235.
 
I currently have an AA1A, it fits what you're doing well. Certainly more fun to fly than a Cherokee or 150/2

Fun to fly and very cheap. If you find an IFR one, it will have minimum IFR avionics. But in some ways that is good. The plane costs less the a GNS650 alone.

It's slow, but if you're building hours, that's a feature. It takes more runway than a slow plane should, but again, not stupidly so.

There is a likely AD coming due to possible delamination on the elevator. Mostly not a huge deal, but there could be an early surprise.

But a lot of people buy them to be cheap. Deferred maintenance is a concern if too much has accumulated. But they are really simple planes.
 
I'll be watching for opinions as I'm having similar thoughts in a similar position. I'm not building hours for a career, but being able to go away for a few days on a whim and enjoy a short XC is why I want to learn to begin with. Just don't want to set myself up in too much plane with things like brutal insurance costs etc. with the tradeoff being no funds left to spend on further training to make myself a better pilot.

So, at the very least I don't think it's a crazy thought since I'm thinking the same.
 
jbarrass said:
I currently have an AA1A, it fits what you're doing well.
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Thoughts on keeping one outside? Obviously, it would be covered as necessary. The internet has convinced me that it's a no-no to keep a plane tied down on the ramp.
 
Elliot Martin said:
Thoughts on keeping one outside? Obviously, it would be covered as necessary. The internet has convinced me that it's a no-no to keep a plane tied down on the ramp.
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Fine but not great. Paint will fade and you will need to be vigilant about bird nests and sumping the tanks. You will need a place for plane stuff like cleaning supplies and oil. See if you can find a hangar to rent by the night for when the snow comes through.
 
I have a Beech 1974 B-19 Sport I might be selling in 6 months. Just depends on how I do flying mono vision, accident took out my vision in right eye. I almost bought a AA1A then the Sport popped up and I bought it instead. Clean plane owned it since 1996, very well cared for. Tied down most of it's life with wing, canopy and tail covers. Last 3 years hangered.
 
Elliot Martin said:
Thoughts on keeping one outside? Obviously, it would be covered as necessary. The internet has convinced me that it's a no-no to keep a plane tied down on the ramp.
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Mine is outside.

I hate, hate, hate birds. But otherwise, it’s ok.

hangars are better, but around here they are $550 a month with years long waiting lists. $550 a month pays for a lot of paint.
 
jbarrass said:
hangars are better, but around here they are $550 a month with years long waiting lists. $550 a month pays for a lot of paint.
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Sounds like the same boat that I'd find myself in. Good to know it may not be a deal-breaker.
 
Elliot Martin said:
Sounds like the same boat that I'd find myself in. Good to know it may not be a deal-breaker.
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I’ve had my AA-5B tied down outside for the last four years - no problems other than fading paint. You’ll want a cover - the sliding canopy leaks & will helpfully funnel water into the flap control on the center pedestal. Also check for main spar corrosion before buying. That’s a deal breaker.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Also check for main spar corrosion before buying. That’s a deal breaker.
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Yep. If I go this route I'll have a pre-buy done by the Grumman checklist, if not a Grumman A/P. Last thing I want is an expensive paperweight.
 
My fav club plane is a -5B. The club disallowed student pilots due to landing issues potentially causing more maintenance than normal. There must have been an incident or two. I find it the easiest to land of Cessnas and a Cherokee. So yeah ... not gonna talk you out of it. Make sure you have a canopy and you may have faded paint as others have mentioned without at least a shade hangar.
 
Years ago I ferried an AA-1B from Florida to new england. If I recall, there was about 500lbs of useful load total. Couldn't really fuel it up and fly with 2 people. It took a long time to get off the ground at max gross and climbed just as poorly. There is no way in the world I would go IFR in one. Just too light.
 
Sounds like you've considered most of the issues (no hangar, etc.), less than ideal, but still do-able.
As to the low power/ high DA operation, you just have to accept limitations, like, from May to October, your useable flight window is maybe dawn to 10 am. If you think you'll be able to take off from work early on some Friday afternoon in August to go fly at 3pm, forget it (IMHO).
And, you've mentioned IFR-rated as a requirement for your plane. It would be perfectly acceptable as an instrument trainer, but there's almost never a day when weather conditions would be benign enough to fly 'real IMC'. In the mountain west, of course it's usually either thunderstorms or icing, or both. (I used to fly charter out of Bozeman).
Realizing the limitations, no reason not to go with a plane like the Grumman (150/152,Tomahawk,Cherokee 140 all similar category).
 
It is possible, if necessary, to tie down outside. We did for 5 years. I waxed two times a year and kept a canopy cover, cowl plugs, etc. on to protect the avionics as much as possible. The plane has been hangared the last 11 years, but being outside for 5 didn’t destroy the paint.
 
First, how dare you refer to any Grumman as a "starter plane"

Second, your probably going to lose money in the long run. Grummans are going for a premium right now. I can't imagine this market is going to last forever.

Starter plane... Tsk
 
it's a GREAT plane for pattern work
 
In the current market of inflated airplane prices, the two seat Grumman is still a decent buy. They still sell for 10k less than a 150 or 20k less than a 152. As long as they fit your mission you can’t go wrong. I still believe they will have the lowest cost of ownership of about any airplane. They are dead simple, easy to work on, and not plagued by tons of AD notes. They are typically 10 knots faster than a 150/152 and in my opinion more comfortable and easier to get in and out of.

as others have said, on the hottest of days it’s really a one person airplane. Mine had a similar climb rate as a 150 but the climb angle is much flatter. I recall a July day when I was loaded to the max that I was worried about clearing the trees at the end of a 6k’ upslope grass runway. The bright side is you can hang right with an Archer or 172 in cruise.
 
Look at Liberty-XLs. Also an orphan plane but Discovery seems to be coming back. There’s a fair number of XL threads on POA. You get a lot for your money.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
First, how dare you refer to any Grumman as a "starter plane"

Second, your probably going to lose money in the long run. Grummans are going for a premium right now. I can't imagine this market is going to last forever.

Starter plane... Tsk
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Says the guy getting ready to trade up from a Grumman; first plane he ever owned...

Tsk tsk.
 
I love my AA1C. The more I look at how the airplane market is going the better the Grumman looks.

Mine is an O-320/150hp, and it's exceptionally fun to fly and quite reasonable to own. If you can afford the extra power, buy it (O-290s command about an extra $4K, and O-320s tend to see $7k).

Having said that. There was a good looking O-235 AA1B, IFR that sold for $25K a week or so ago. My first year insurance was just over $1K w/ 90hours TT (last year), less than an hour in Grumman airplanes. The O-235 will burn 5gph and maintenance on fixed gear Grummans is on the low side. In this market, with that plane, you would likely pay for 100 hours of flight time before you get to the costs of a good IFR C150.

The downsides are useful load and landing/takeoff. 500lbs UL tends to be standard on B/C models, but the earlier ones tend to run around 460lbs. Book landing on the A/B/Cs runs around 1250 ft, but I am not comfortable landing in less than 2500ft. Takeoff at high DA with the O-235 can be long, especially at max gross (which I can get close to solo, full fuel and some baggage). Last issue (for some) is the laminated fiberglass gear, it does not like grass. Its not so much that you can't go to grass strips, but many Grumman savvy mechanics will recommend against storing it on grass strips, because constant landing on slick/wet grass can cause problems (though many argue that for an individually owned/flown airplane it will not see enough landings for that to matter anyway).

The upside is low cost, fun, and speed. I budget about 8k/yr fixed cost and 50/hr to fly, those numbers will go down, as I think I have worked out the issues from my plane sitting before I owned it, and I have just moved to Vegas (though I have not moved the plane yet) and I am hoping to find some Mogas to run in it). The yankee is the most fun trainer I have flown, its responsiveness is on another level from a PA28 or C172. For speed, my plane will true over 120kts (I plan my cruise around 110), but even the O-235s will cruise at 105kts.

If you are looking for more info, start here: https://grummanpilots.org/Considering-Becoming-a-Grumman-Owner

Send me a private message any questions, I would be glad to take you flying if you come down to Vegas.
 
Had a Tiger. Have friends with AA1s. Solid planes and fun to fly.

I don’t know about Bozeman but, in the Southeast, people are quite jealous when you taxi by with an open canopy while they drip in sweat.
 
I owned an AA-1A for four years, and built a ton of time in it flying XC all over the northeast. It's good for 3 hours max for VFR with 22 gallons of fuel and 6 gph. The O-235-C2C is a robust engine, with unusual solid tappets. You can get an autofuel STC and save even more in operating costs. Like most 2-seat trainers, it's not ideal with full fuel and two large bodies on board. When I was younger and svelter, it was fine for my wife and I and a toothbrush for XC trips. Solo, no problem. I took many business trips in it solo. They are a ton of fun to fly, and really simple to maintain. I always planned for 125 mph (108 kt) and 6 gph with WOT cruise typically between 6500-9500 MSL. That was without wheel pants. 3000 feet is comfortable runway length, but I've been in and out of CGS with two and full fuel, which is a bit tight on a hot summer day. I probably wouldn't do that again. 3000 feet is good.

If keeping it outside, a canopy cover is a must to prevent baking your avionics, and preventing canopy leaks onto your flap switch. I eventually moved my AA-1A indoors. There is an SB for the elevator attach points and horizontal stabilizer delamination/corrosion that will soon become an AD, but isn't too big a deal to comply with. Both my AA-1A and my current AA-5, which shares some structural design features, have been trouble-free.
 
On hot Florida days I love to open the canopy of our AA-5 Traveler for a minute to cool the cabin.
 
About keeping her on the ramp, it’s not only paint but you will get sleepless nights when a strong thunderstorm rolls in, hail damage is another concern and strong winds. My plane has always been hangared, but for last 2 weeks it’s been sitting on a ramp. Last week, we had a big thunderstorm with about 50kts winds, the entire 4 hrs I was glued to the radar to see which was and how fast it’s getting away from the airport and then took a trip to the airport at 12:30 AM to ensure it’s still there.

Montana winters are not nice too. Apart from snow, heating it up before flight on a ramp is a challenge.

Having said all that, a lot of planes are tied down on the ramps all across the country and they do just fine. Just putting it out there.
 
Look realistically at the hours/year you will fly, and all costs. You may find renting is cheaper than sole ownership. Or look for a partner, maybe one who already has a hangar. Two birds, one stone.
 
I'd personally be nervous about one of those (or any 2 seat trainer) operating with the high DA's up there. But I'm also not the most svelte guy either.
 
I owned N1574R for about 6 months. I liked the little plane but there were two reasons I dumped it so quickly and moved to something bigger and faster.

1. as soon as I bought it everyone wanted to go flying and with only one extra seat and limited useful load there werent many options.

2. The climb was atrocious. Living in SoCal with mountains and hills it was terrible. If I lived in a flat state it would not have been bad but when you have to circle constantly to gain altitude or tell ATC you cant cross their airspace at a certain altitude cause your plane cant climb fast enough, gets old real quick
 
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