Talk me out of a Debonair

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

May the force be with you
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I have a Grumman and it has served its propose.

I really thought I was going to go the Comanche route and in a weird twist of fate (coincidence), I ended up recently in a Debonair and really liked what it had to offer w/ regard to speed and load.

POA, do what you are good at. Tell me what's wrong with the 33 series Bonanza.

Thx.

P.S. I never found myself soaking wet in the Grumman.
 
You have TB time. Save your money and get a TB-20/1.... much better bang for the buck.


Or one of those fancy plastic thingies with the chutes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I have a difficult time advising against a 33. Only initial counsel is, don't get one that still has the 225 HP engine -- you want at least a 520.
 
Tampico Trauma said:
You have TB time. Save your money and get a TB-20/1.... much better bang for the buck.


Or one of those fancy plastic thingies with the chutes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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MASSIVE difference in purchase price. and the back seats are designed for pilots' wives.
I loved my TB. the 20/21 is WAY spendy
 
SCCutler said:
Only initial counsel is, don't get one that still has the 225 HP engine -- you want at least a 520.
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Depends on your point of view. If mogas is readily available I'd consider a 225 hp model. But the extra power would be nice...

I miss my bonanza. In my opinion, they are the nicest flying airplane in that category.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I really thought I was going to go the Comanche route and in a weird twist of fate (coincidence), I ended up recently in a Debonair and really liked what it had to offer w/ regard to speed and load.

POA, do what you are good at. Tell me what's wrong with the 33 series Bonanza.
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They're nice planes, but the Bonanzish line has always had high purchase prices relative to similar birds. A Comanche or Mooney of similar year, SMOH, avionics, and performance is usually a good bit cheaper to purchase. And I've never owned a Beech but the parts prices are legendary (and Textron, post-Beech-acquisition, moved those prices over to Cessna after seeing what Beech was getting away with :mad:).

But the main reason I don't want you to buy one is that you'll run away to BeechTalk and stop entertaining us non-Beech people over here. :(
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have a Grumman and it has served its propose.

I really thought I was going to go the Comanche route and in a weird twist of fate (coincidence), I ended up recently in a Debonair and really liked what it had to offer w/ regard to speed and load.

POA, do what you are good at. Tell me what's wrong with the 33 series Bonanza.

Thx.

P.S. I never found myself soaking wet in the Grumman.
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Don’t buy a Debonair. Sumpin’s gotta be wrong with them things. There a fricken Bonanza but Beech wouldn’t call them that for some reason. And the cost a lot. And they got them moving landing landing gear and cost a lot to insure. There. I did my best.
 
Oh that's easy. It voilates the odd lyco, even conti count axiom. (yes, zero is an even number). Chutes are a terminating action for the axiom. :D

Just fly the fam in the -22 you have access to. I don't presume to know, but I don't understand the resistance to Occam's razor here.
 
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I enjoyed the flight in the Deb with @jesse. It felt a tad underpowered there in the flatland but sped up nicely after leveling off. Weird how long that took but it just kept slowly speeding up.

I don't think I'd want one at this altitude. Just a touch anemic. Not horrible though.

As far as how it flew, it was rock solid like Beech stuff has a reputation for. Liked to stay pointed where it was pointed, etc. I suspect part of that is the straight tail and usual amounts of low wing dihedral.

Cabin seemed very comfortable front and back.

Gear indicator was in a truly horror show of a location on the floor but was sorta visible. Ha. At least it made you move your head physically to look... In some ways that's a plus I guess. Or was that the flaps? I forget. Whatever it was I'd want a flashlight at night if the little bulb down there failed. I just remember it being truly awkward.

Controls coming from a Grumman would likely feel reeeeealy heavy. Especially in roll. Slightly heavier than my 182 I felt. But more precise. Smoother but not lighter. But very easy to park the nose where you wanted it.

Couldn't tell ya a thing about stuff to watch out for when buying it or owning it though. Seemed like a nice travelling machine that was ever so slightly underpowered for what the airframe could do with a few more ponies. But still fast enough for what it was.
 
225Hp is a dog, might as well buy a 150HP Cessna Cardinal...
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Tell me what's wrong with the 33 series Bonanza
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Screenshot_20210528-032051_Chrome.jpg

Imagine waking up to that face every morning.

I feel like you could buy the nicest comanche for the price of the average debonair unless you have an inside line on a solid one locally.
 
Just about the Benjamins. You will need about 70% more of them, according to the guy on the Bonanza forum I talked to when I was looking. I decided that it was a financial bridge too far for me. Plus, some of them have an aft CG issue that makes it hard to load the back seats.
 
You can't afford to buy one.
You can't afford to insure one.
You can't afford to maintain one.

And if you can, phooey on you. Can I have a ride in it?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have a Grumman and it has served its propose.

I really thought I was going to go the Comanche route and in a weird twist of fate (coincidence), I ended up recently in a Debonair and really liked what it had to offer w/ regard to speed and load.

POA, do what you are good at. Tell me what's wrong with the 33 series Bonanza.
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Nothing. I have flown about 30 makes/models of singles and the 33 series is my favorite.

Disclaimer. As a non-owner, I know nothing about cost. Just what I like to fly.

I'll also mention that the one I flew often was a Debonair with an IO-550 STC. Pretty much flew 165 KTAS at 65% power. So far, the only thing faster I've flown has been an Ovation. And, @denverpilot, it was definitely not anemic ;)
 
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hindsight2020 said:
Just fly the fam in the -22 you have access to. I don't presume to know, but I don't understand the resistance to Occam's razor here.
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This is wise advice, if your dad is going to keep the -22 around, I'd use it as the family plane and trade the Grumman for something interesting like a Decathlon. Then you'd have the family hauler and a fun aero/tailwheel.
 
The comments about parts costs are a little misguided.

Now, it is absolutely true that Textron, when they acquired Beech, did the Jack-me-up dance with parts prices (not all of them, but enough to be... painful). Fortunately, though, there is a Very Robust network of parts providers who have you well covered, and there are really not that many truly proprietary parts that can only be sourced from the OEM (this is true for all GA manufacturers). We are all heavily reliant upon a robust aftermarket, and in Bo/Deb world, we have an epic resource - CSOBeech.com - started by Denton’s (and Appleton’s) own Michael Caban. Check it out, be amazed.

I’m not sure I agree, for legitimately equivalent aircraft, that Debs are significantly more costly than other equivalent aircraft, but you should keep your eyes wide open for any plane that will serve well. For Bryan’s use case, I always include the Comanche, and the 210. Maybe the R182. And, of course, Mooney (although pricing on truly-equivalent Mooneys, which to me means 6-cylinder powered Mooneys, will definitely be higher).
 
SCCutler said:
And, of course, Mooney (although pricing on truly-equivalent Mooneys, which to me means 6-cylinder powered Mooneys, will definitely be higher).
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Point to Spike. Any Mooney will have to be big/powerful enough to carry the spawn of BrYan, and will therefore be expensive. OTOH, it's your duty as a Texan to support your Kerrville brothers and sisters.
 
Holy cow.

I had heard airplanes were selling fast, but I’ve never seen the available inventory so low. This is nuts!
 
Bill said:
Point to Spike. Any Mooney will have to be big/powerful enough to carry the spawn of BrYan, and will therefore be expensive. OTOH, it's your duty as a Texan to support your Kerrville brothers and sisters.
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There is that, and I am not unmindful.

I’d love to have a Mooney, but the Mooney I really want is built in France.
 
Bill said:
This is wise advice, if your dad is going to keep the -22 around, I'd use it as the family plane and trade the Grumman for something interesting like a Decathlon. Then you'd have the family hauler and a fun aero/tailwheel.
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Why not a 140? They are simple and inexpensive to maintain, like Grummans.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
....I ended up recently in a Debonair and really liked what it had to offer w/ regard to speed and load......
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huh uh. huh huh. you said you liked it’s load....


I only flew in one deb, my hangar neighbors. my head would hit the roof often enough that it was annoying*. otherwise it’s a nice flying bird and typically about 15kts faster than the mooney. but Jim is so spot on with that hideous yoke. and that pic is actual size (I’m viewing it on my iPhone so the yoke is smaller than an iPhone).

*to be fair, they just redid the interior so maybe the seat padding was stuffed too much, but I literally had to tilt my head.
 
I’d only talk you out of a 33 in order to talk you into a 35 or 36.

They say the parts are expensive, but I wouldn’t know. In 10 years and 700+ hours of bonanza ownership, the only Beech part I bought was a squat switch thingie that cost $150. I spent a lot of money under the hood, but basically nothing on the airframe. They’re built so well that it just isn’t a big problem, unlike my current Cessna, that always seems to be dropping screws, breaking door latches, and things like that.

If your mission is to go places in a piston single while carrying less than 700 pounds of people, a Bonanza/Deb would be hard to beat.
 
GeorgeC said:
Why not a 140? They are simple and inexpensive to maintain, like Grummans.
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IIRC, Bryan went and did some aerobatics with Peggy IIRC, so a Decathlon or Citabria would allow him to get both aerobatic and tailwheel jollies!
 
@SixPapaCharlie …. Soon I’ll be flying the club’s V35 more if you want to experience a flight or three to see what that is like. (For the crowd contributing to the thread, this is N149G at www.MetroflyersClub.Com).

And if you want see what an A36 is about, Sherman up at In The Pattern recently added a nice one.

And then there is the Skylane 55WB with it’s newly upgraded panel:

87A4FFB0-1B8B-4962-A9F7-2AE0C026183D.jpeg

This is same airplane from Bryan’s “My Flight with Aggie Mike” story. Just newly upgraded with G3X, G5,GFC500, and more.
 
I think if it were me, I'd be looking at what the cost difference really is for a 33 vs. a 35. Both of them are some level of "go places" kind of planes, but with the 35 you get some more speed and more or less the same interior. Plus, the V-tail looks cooler.
 
If I were in the market for a four-place hauler, a Deb or straight tail Bonanza would be on the list of suspects, as would the Comanche. I do know the V-tails are now running into issues with the ruddervators and corrosion, and being made from unobtanium. Not sure if the straight tails have the same issue.
 
Ted said:
I think if it were me, I'd be looking at what the cost difference really is for a 33 vs. a 35. Both of them are some level of "go places" kind of planes, but with the 35 you get some more speed and more or less the same interior. Plus, the V-tail looks cooler.
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Somewhere an angel just lots its wings. The Ted and I agree.
 
The v-tail definitely has the cool factor, but have a look at this thread: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=195577&p=2884927&hilit=Insurance#p2884927
Apparently AIG is limiting what percentage of the hull value they'll pay to repair each part due primarily to the ruddervator situation. Kind of like how disability insurance pays 10k for an eye or 25k for a leg.

The "bad news for v-tails" thread, iirc, said textron is committed to making some new ones, but they're going to be 10k a piece, and there's no time table as to when.

Somebody needs to talk Mike Patey into developing an STC for a carbon fiber replacement.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
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P.S. I never found myself soaking wet in the Grumman.
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I know; this is the lamest critique of Grummans.

My 2 cents: How long will you really have this mission of 4 people who can't fit in the Grumman or Cirrus? 5 years or so? Keep the Grumman, and keep your dad healthy so you have continued access to the Cirrus. Put the money you would spend on a new plane in an separate acct. When you want to go someplace and not everyone will fit in one plane, take both planes and hire someone to fly the other. Pay for out of your airplane escrow acct. Then in 5 years when kids are gone and you don't have that mission any more, close out the acct and note how much you saved.
 
Commander 114. Looks cooler than a Deb, much more spacious, no CG issues.

79_Commander114AGT_N5917Ne.jpg
 
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As a former Tiger owner, in my opinion, yes, you should get a Debonair, or a Comanche, or maybe a Baron, or even a Twin Comanche.

And give your now-useless-to-you Grumman to me. I would treasure it, adore it, and never abandon it.

And it would be close enough for you to visit, in your new speed demon.

Win-Win:happydance:
:fcross:
 
My IR checkride is scheduled. Cirrus is getting listed once I have the hole in my cert.
Dad is going into a 4 way partnership on a Gen 3. I am not sure what sort of access I will have but it will mean it costs me a lot more money to fly it then I put into the current one.

The Grumman is fun but riding in other heavier planes, has me wanting heavier and faster and not getting knocked around as much as I do in the current plane.

Comanche 250 and Deb are at the top of the list.

(Flame suit on) I don't like the way V-Tails look.
 
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