Talk me out of a Cherokee 160

Part of what you’re paying is the profit for the renter. Any non profit clubs? That should be less than commercial renting, and because fixed costs are spread the club rental should be less than owning.
 
WDD said:
Part of what you’re paying is the profit for the renter. Any non profit clubs? That should be less than commercial renting, and because fixed costs are spread the club rental should be less than owning.
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I've been looking, but so far nothing I haven't seen anything at my local airports.
 
I did not buy to save money.

I bought so I can grab the plane and go somewhere for the weekend. Without paying for 6+ hours, no matter how little I fly. :D
 
BTW, getting loan approval without having an airplane identified gets you a maximum limit you can spend. They will still evaluation your choice, when you make one, to see how much they will lend on THAT specific airplane.

And the loan approval is for the maximum loan, so you can actually spend over that, as you have to make a 15% down payment.

So, if you ask for a $150,000 for your loan, and it is approved, you can spend up to $172,500. $150K from the loan company and $22,500 down payment.

Again, if you have been approved for $150K, and pick a plane for $150K, they may tell you it is only worth $100K and that is all they will loan. As they did to the one plane you found.

And, if you have head room, you can get things like avionics upgrades (they will loan you about 1/2 what the cost will be) or an overhaul not long after buying.
 
Seemed pertinent for this thread: :D

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Now - that’s funny. The only thing missing is the space shuttle ….. :)
 
RussR said:
Seemed pertinent for this thread: :D

294488156_421792766374994_4141894792744212266_n.jpg
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I love this.

And I hate that this also describes my Arrow on something as modest as a 3k' DA day... Yesterday... After I filled my tanks to the brim, 80 miles away to save 2$/gal...
 
WDD said:
First - Rgbeard - wow. I think I moved less when I moved into my first apartment.

Good observation on the Goldwing pick up. I've flown 172's, 182's, and Tigers on X country (around 2 hours) with the wife. If that is what you have in mind (with your wife, not mine) then my observations:
A 172 will do it, but slow and tiring
A 182 did great
A tiger was a "never again" from the wife. Too bumpy. And it needs a good amount of runway, especially on a hot day.

I think a Cherokee 160 would be like the Skyhawk - it could work, but on a hot day would climb slowly and not get much ground covered for the time spent in the air. (The 180 HP Skyhawk doesn't go faster, but you don't have to worry about load and climbing. Full fuel, four people, and luggage is possible).

In today's environment, and no I can't predict, I wouldn't be in a hurry. Rent several types - including a Cherokee 160 if you can - and see how it works out.
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Regarding the Tiger criticism. I’m in a club with five aircraft. Of the five the Tiger is my preferred travel plane. Better speed less fuel. Or to compromise you can crack the canopy for more cooling. It doesn’t need an abnormal amount of runway as you claim. I flew today with my CFII in the Tiger at 7000+ DA. The climb to 11.5 was a bit painful but could be done. My wife has flown with me in 150/172/Tiger/182/Cherokee 180. The Tiger and 182 are her preferences.
 
I did my PPL in a Tiger off a 2000 foot strip. Normal take off direction was uphill also.

I flight planned 132 knots at 10.2 gph and typically beat both numbers.

I would have serious gotten a Tiger, if there had been any choices. But a couple of months ago when I was looking, MAYBE 1 listed at any given time. One I would have made an offer on, was sold by the time I saw the listing.
 
So, @Will Kumley , any updates? Have you been sufficiently talked out of a Cherokee? Did you find a more reasonable lender?

Nosy minds want to know.
 
Pilawt said:
The difference is a little more than that. The aft cabin bulkhead is one station further aft on the as-built Cherokee 160 (1961-67), with a full-size baggage compartment and aft bench seat. It's identical to the interior of the contemporary Cherokee 180. In the Cherokee 140 (1964-77) the optional snap-in rear seats are smaller, less supportive and mounted a bit further forward than the 150/160/180's permanent bench seat, giving the 140 less rear-seat leg room. Some 140s have the molded plastic rear bulkhead (an option beginning with the 1969 Cherokee 140B) that provides a modest cargo area behind the rear seats and a small hat shelf, but getting to it is awkward with no baggage door. Other 140s have a flat aft cabin bulkhead with zero room behind the rear seats.

View attachment 108498

Above: Early Cherokee 140 "2+2 Cruiser" cabin.

View attachment 108500

Above: My '77 Cherokee 140, decked out ready to haul newlyweds to their car waiting at an airport a few miles away, to avoid rowdy well-wishers. It was a tight squeeze getting the bride and her wedding gown into that back seat!

View attachment 108499

Above: 1961-67 Cherokee 150/160/180 cabin.
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Those are some tiny ladies…
 
I own a Cherokee 180 and have put over 400 hours on it in the last 27 months,.

I have flown both a 140 and 160 in the past. I wouldn't own one for what I use my 180 for, which is 90% of the time myself and a bag. I see 118knots true in the 180, with a burn of 8.6 to 10gpm depending on altitude and temp. The 140 I flew was lucky to true out at 104knots.

Mine is the older model Hershey bar wing and small back seat. I'm debating taking the seat out at annual as I've had one back seat passenger in two years.

I have 1050# gross to load it up, and there really isn't room to get that much into the plane unless you are hauling lead bricks.

I climb out at over 1000 ft per minute on hot days in Texas. I climb out at 500fpm on cool days in Colorado. It climbs at 200-300fpm above 10,000 and have it up to 15,000 just to see if it would go that high.

I HATE HATE HATE the one door. Loading for Oshkosh, I had to bring my wife to help load the backseat. It is a PITA.

I love my plane, it does what I ask of her and is stable in flight, and I can land it in a 30 knot crosswind and still have some rudder. If I really want to, I can get it stopped on about 500 feet of runway. It doesn't float, in fact, if you are too high on final, just pull the throttle to idle and it will drop like a rock. Add just a touch of throttle and you are back on glide slope. It is a dead easy plane to fly and land.

Now that I secured a larger hangar, the real search begins for my "move up" plane. I'm thinking 210, Comanche or A36. Makes a lot of sense for a guy that flies alone 90% of the time, doesn't it?
 
Half Fast said:
So, @Will Kumley , any updates? Have you been sufficiently talked out of a Cherokee? Did you find a more reasonable lender?

Nosy minds want to know.
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Unfortunately, the bank talked me out of any dreams of airplane ownership for now. The banks all seemed to treat my military housing cost as debt in my debt-to-income ratio and the high cost of rent in Southern California makes it look like I'm over my head in debt. However, when I talked to the banks and asked if my rent was counted against me if I wanted to purchase a vehicle they said it was not. So, it turns out plane loans treat rent differently than auto or motorcycle loans. Fun fact, I got approved for a motorcycle loan with payments three times what the plane payments would have been. I didn't spend that much on a bike, but the bank was more than willing to give me the money if I wanted it.
 
Did you try Dorr Aviation? They specialize in aircraft loans
 
Pinecone said:
Did you try Dorr Aviation? They specialize in aircraft loans
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I did, they took my info and after getting a denial letter they then asked for more information. I asked for an update but never got one from them. As that was a month ago I'm going to guess they too are holding my housing allowance/rent against me as that was the standard response I got from multiple aircraft lending banks.
 
Strange, as you get the housing allowance, so that should count towards income if they count the rent as a liability.
 
Cherokee 140/160’s were for sale for close to 25k a couple years ago. I’m guessing now you’re paying well over 50k? I have flown 160hp and 180hp, and noticed a big difference between the two. But I did not notice much difference between the 180hp and 200hp. Especially for the Piper Arrow. People say PA28R180 180hp is like a dog but I find it pretty similar to the PA28R200 and I’ve flown considerably in both. Lycoming IO-360 seems like a great engine, reliable and affordable to maintain. IO-320 doesn’t save you much and I’ve heard they can be more difficult to reach TBO (from the flying club I’m at). The next engine up is a 6 cylinder and maintenance costs jump. So go with a IO-360 mid time engine, save the avionics until you get experience owning and upgrade again later. Archer is a great plane, as is the C172, Arrow and Mooney. From what I hear, Bonanza requires a little more skill to fly, parts are harder to come by and maintenance is more expensive. I’ve never been in a Bo though, and I love the look of the V tail. Any decent year Bo is $$$
 
Would shared ownership work for you? Maybe you could get a few people together and buy something you could each pay cash for. Personally, I don't like to finance toys anyway, but many people do.
 
Will Kumley said:
My search for a good plane has gone much longer than I would have liked. I was stuck on the idea of something with a 180 hp engine but the more I see prices doing what they are doing I'm now considering a couple Cherokee 160's. As a realist I understand my flights will likely be me and one of my family members for most flights as well as a healthy smattering of solo flights. My kids are mostly grown with a 21 year old son and a 17 year old girl. There may be the occasional flight with two passengers and even less often would be all 4 of us. I understand all 4 of us would mean the fuel tanks won't be full. I'm on the coast of California and may take the occasional flight up to Kern Valley or other higher elevation airports but would have to be aware of DA and how the 160 does or doesn't perform.

A good friend that has flown for many years and owned a few different planes is hard pressed against anything less than a 180, primarily as he thinks a 160 or less is just too slow. However, I'm not sure if the speed gain is enough to cancel out the 160. I'd be more concerned about climb performance but again, with the flying I will do most of the time, I feel like it would work for my needs.

Of the two I'm currently considering, one is a Cherokee 160 from the factory, the other is a 140 that has the 160 hp upgrade complete. Other than the fact that one started as a 140 it looks like the real only difference is that it doesn't have a baggage door, but it does have space behind the backseat for some luggage.
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Are your cross country flights going to be long enough to justify the additional horse power?

You will always want more room if you're going for multiple nights on cross country trips but how many do you plan?

I'd try talking you out of this but I recently came across one I'm having a hard time saying no to myself.
 
I am in a flying club with a pa28 140, 180 and a 200r. The 140 is slow but it flies beautifully. I can usually lean it out around 6-7 gph.

I would recommend that you consider a club and/or partnership if you want your "own plane." A well-run club can be a great experience and wont require bank loans. At my club, we had to replace 3 engines in about a 2-3 month period. Because the finances were so well-run, checks were written by the treasurer, and all was well again. If I had owned my own plane(s), it would have been a struggle to replace an engine, much less 3, in that short a period of time.

Another club near my club had their pa29 180 eat a connecting rod. They already had purchased a spare engine core (and all the pieces that go with it) over the prior 2-3 years. When this event occured, they simply replaced the engine in about 4-5 days.

Again, I think a private owner would have had a fit if that had happened to them.

Both clubs, incidentally, have several A&P's as members- very, very helpful.
 
Or …. Join a club that has a faster plane for your infrequent long trip needs and own the 160 for your every day flying. After the pain of initiation fee the monthly (for me) is $60. Then I pay by the tach hour.
 
Half Fast said:
Would shared ownership work for you? Maybe you could get a few people together and buy something you could each pay cash for. Personally, I don't like to finance toys anyway, but many people do.
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I wish I could find a shared ownership nearby. Been looking, but haven't found anything that works yet for what we want.
 
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