Taking Off Without A Clearance - "Radio Problem"
- Thread starter Daleandee
- Start date
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Maybe he was practicing an emergency takeoff... 
dbahn
Pattern Altitude
Will need remedial braining for that one.
Daleandee
Final Approach
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2020
- Messages
- 6,878
- Display Name
Display name:
Dale Andee
Perhaps, as he never did acknowledge the hold short from the tower. But he never received nor asked for a takeoff clearance. He just self announced and went ...
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah the Cirrus guy was a bit too much. Going around is part of flying at a busy towered airport. It was obvious the Diamond was screwing up, go around, let the tower deal and move on. Oh, and offset on a go around, especially for this situation. That’s on the cirrus guy.
Pattern wasn't very square either, not to mention overshooting final.
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,169
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
That's an understatement, he basically intercepted final going outbound
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah, he was told to overfly a landmark, a square pattern probably would have put him over the other field’s runway.
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,169
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
He was not asked to overfly a landmark. He was asked to extend downwind past a landmark.
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 15,263
- Location
- Southeast Tennessee
- Display Name
Display name:
This page intentionally left blank
I believe the diamond guy felt entitled to depart and then did so.
And just ignoring tower? I'd be interested to know what time this happened. A stretch but maybe it was close to being closed and he was self announcing thinking he wasn't hearing tower because he thought it was closed.
Ok, probably way too much benefit of the doubt for a screw up. But I ALMOST entered a Delta right as operating hours started but the volume on the radio was down so I never heard tower. Caught my error prior to entering and apologized.
This guy never even announced Palo Alto.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
He was asked to tighten up his downwind and the amphitheater was a little off to his right at that point. He then avoided flying over the other field runway at patten altitude. I would have done the same.
ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live
ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live - aircraft flight history
globe.adsbexchange.com
ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live
ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live - aircraft flight history
globe.adsbexchange.com
And also let ATC he was unfamiliar with the area and they let him know he was doing fine.
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,169
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
Tightening up the downwind does not mean crossing over the final. The other airport is a controlled airport and coordination is the controller's job. The proper thing to do is to follow the controller's instructions, not make up your own procedure.
hindsight2020
Final Approach
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2010
- Messages
- 6,997
- Display Name
Display name:
hindsight2020
If you hear the sequence of his transmissions from the time he started, that's exactly what happened. Homeboy prob thought the tower was closed, and his announcements and taxi reflected that mental model. If that's not the case, then it's still a really easy sell for the 709 given the evidence. The part that will have less plausible deniability is not responding to the calls on frequency that referenced his call sign. That's where he's gonna have a tough time with the Feds. I like the selective radio problems angle though. My 978mhz nav lights have the same problem every time I fly the facbuilt under a bridge (this is called sarcasm, gallow's humor, entertainment and does not reflect the opinion of my employer or my offline person... not today FAA, not today).
709 is incoming for sure, but if I were that guy, that's exactly the angle I'd be circling the wagons around. He'll be fine.
Now the Cirrus guy, that sweater wearin' pompous **** can get bent. B**** probably works from home
. I don't know why ground was being so obsequious to this guy's indignation. Tell him the brasher is none of his business and go unload his misplaced anger to the 1-800 hotline.I recognize not everybody is fighting wildfires in airplanes with suspect cycle fatigue condition, or flying 3 feet from another airplane in and out of IMC for a living, but if the thread scenario in question gets ya white-knuckled, as much as I like to be inclusive in this hobby, this ish might just not be the best use of your recreational time. I've been in interstate traffic sudden stop/torrential rain situations more stressful than this go-around.
If so, he was using non-standard radio calls. And he taxied onto a movement area taxiway without permission from ground.
dbahn
Pattern Altitude
What the Cirrus pilot found "unbelievable" happens frequently at non-towered fields, i.e. mis-communication - which is a very broad cluster of occurrences. Just because you're used to the hand-holding of ATC operations doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared for someone pulling out in front of you.
So was he ignoring tower or was he not hearing the tower. He certainly heard them loud and clear after going full send.If you hear the sequence of his transmissions from the time he started, that's exactly what happened. Homeboy prob thought the tower was closed, and his announcements and taxi reflected that mental model. If that's not the case, then it's still a really easy sell for the 709 given the evidence. The part that will have less plausible deniability is not responding to the calls on frequency that referenced his call sign. That's where he's gonna have a tough time with the Feds. I like the selective radio problems angle though. My 978mhz nav lights have the same problem every time I fly the facbuilt under a bridge (this is called sarcasm, gallow's humor, entertainment and does not reflect the opinion of my employer or my offline person... not today FAA, not today).
709 is incoming for sure, but if I were that guy, that's exactly the angle I'd be circling the wagons around. He'll be fine.
Now the Cirrus guy, that sweater wearin' pompous **** can get bent. B**** probably works from home
I recognize not everybody is fighting wildfires in airplanes with suspect cycle fatigue condition, or flying 3 feet from another airplane in and out of IMC for a living, but if the thread scenario in question gets ya white-knuckled, as much as I like to be inclusive in this hobby, this ish might just not be the best use of your recreational time. I've been in interstate traffic sudden stop/torrential rain situations more stressful than this go-around.
At 1700 local when the incident occured and tower operation between 0600-2000...I'm at a loss
Yeah, it was no where near tower-closing time. Even if he was having radio trouble, taking off without a clearance was pretty strange. Maybe he was having G-1000 confusion.
It's a rental plane that's based on the field, at Advantage Aviation.
advantage-aviation.com
It's a rental plane that's based on the field, at Advantage Aviation.
N660PS - Advantage Aviation
N660PS - Advantage Aviation - Advantage Aviation has more modern aircraft in our fleet than any other Bay Area flight club.
advantage-aviation.com
Last edited:
hindsight2020
Final Approach
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2010
- Messages
- 6,997
- Display Name
Display name:
hindsight2020
I canceled a rental one time because I thought the radio Tx was kaput. Turns out they could hear me just fine, but my dumb-a didn't have the audio panel selected correctly so I couldn't hear them reply back. Oops. The difference of course is I didn't shrug it and went leroy jenkins due regard mid afternoon lol.Yeah, it was no where near tower-closing time. Even if he was having radio trouble, taking off without a clearance was pretty strange. Maybe he was having G-1000 confusion.
It's a rental plane that's based on the field, at Advantage Aviation.
N660PS - Advantage Aviation
N660PS - Advantage Aviation - Advantage Aviation has more modern aircraft in our fleet than any other Bay Area flight club.
I can see how audio panel buffoonery could have contributed, of course I can't answer why the dude pressed on like he was on fire and past V1. All I was saying with my post in jest was, to quote OJ Simpson, "if I had done it...." I would play the hours of operations card and take my lickings. It's just a more benign angle to play for a 709 than the "yeah I knew they were operational and I still sent it". That's not gonna get papered over with a single 709, that's gonna get the full rectal chemo multi-event treatment. If you run the tapes as presented by the YT clip, it completely passes like someone taxiing and taking off from an uncontrolled field.
dbahn
Pattern Altitude
It's worse than that. Taking off in front of an aircraft on short final is not only a violation whether towered or not, it's potentially deadly for occupants of two airplanes.
Just like it's imperative to look at the final approach course when turning base to final, it's equally imperative to look at the final approach course when entering the runway - tower or no tower.
Here's what I heard...
A Diamond pilot who might have had a radio problem either (a) decided since he had a radio problem, he'd take off from a Towered airport without a clearance or, (b) as someone else mentioned, thought the Tower was closed (he did make nontowered calls) and was completely unsurprised (oblivious?) there was no one else around on the radio. (Did he listen to ATIS? Call Ground for taxi?'
I don't have any problem with the Cirrus pilot, who handed the situation well. Sure, he was pretty upset and wanted to follow up. That's pretty understandable and did not affect how he handled the go-around and reset - he saved most of the comments untill taxiing.
The aftermath is probably more interesting.
A Diamond pilot who might have had a radio problem either (a) decided since he had a radio problem, he'd take off from a Towered airport without a clearance or, (b) as someone else mentioned, thought the Tower was closed (he did make nontowered calls) and was completely unsurprised (oblivious?) there was no one else around on the radio. (Did he listen to ATIS? Call Ground for taxi?'
I don't have any problem with the Cirrus pilot, who handed the situation well. Sure, he was pretty upset and wanted to follow up. That's pretty understandable and did not affect how he handled the go-around and reset - he saved most of the comments untill taxiing.
The aftermath is probably more interesting.
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 15,263
- Location
- Southeast Tennessee
- Display Name
Display name:
This page intentionally left blank
Yup, three issues. No taxi clearance, no departure clearance, and pulled right out without looking for AC on final.
What I can’t determine is if this was malice or cluelessness. Either way he needs remedial education.
texasclouds
En-Route
The Diamond guy maybe was a greenhorn and totally forgot protocol. It’s possible he had is hands full and subconsciously tuned out radio noise.
The Circus guy on the other hand can’t even fly a halfway decent traffic pattern. What good will him complaining do? Nothing. File a NASA report and go on with life. Maybe take some flying lessons on traffic patterns.
The Circus guy on the other hand can’t even fly a halfway decent traffic pattern. What good will him complaining do? Nothing. File a NASA report and go on with life. Maybe take some flying lessons on traffic patterns.
Tower told him to tighten up his pattern and to extend downwind. Since he stated that he was not familiar with the Amphitheater, he was likely unaware that it is about aligned with final approach, and thus had no good way to judge when to turn back to a downwind heading that far out.
Not to mention probably concerned with the other Delta.
His hands full on the ramp??
texasclouds
En-Route
This whole flying business can be overwhelming for some people.
Tower told him they had extensions into Moffett's airspace, so it looks to me like the problem for the Cirrus, other than the unexpected go-around, was unfamiliarity with the local landmarks in relation to the field.
For me, it would have been no problem because I've been based there for over thirty years.
Missed the extension part. Don't have a problem with the pattern. More of a problem with his demeanor.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah, the cirrus guy was a little too eager to screw over another pilot for my taste. I think the Cirrus guy was inexperienced. A 20 can fly the pattern at 90 knots if it needs to, he seems to be moving much faster. He could have volunteered a 360 or 2 also to stay closer to the airport. But even so, there is no way I'm flying in line with the departure end of a military runway to maintain a perfect pattern. Not happening, don't care if some POA posters get upset about not being on an extended downwind. It is amazing the chaos a clueless pilot, like this diamond guy, can cause.
Cirrus pilot was IFR on an apparent visual approach up until ATC canceled his IFR clearance without an explicit request (seems odd to me).
jayhawk74
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2018
- Messages
- 370
- Display Name
Display name:
jayhawk74
Tower asked the Cirrus pilot if he wanted to do the miss approach or remain in the pattern. The Cirrus pilot requested to remain in the pattern. By asking to remain in the pattern to me that semed like a request from the pilot to cancel his IFR.
That's how I heard it too.
No. Listen again. The controller said "Do you want to execute the missed approach or stay visual?" The latter does not imply IFR cancellation.