Taking off with a plane on downwind

jbDC9 said:
West Houston, ugh, the home of the 2-3 mile final. I think the flight school there is training B-52 or Airbus pilots, they always fly huuuuge patterns. Get a couple of them in the pattern at the same time, forget it. If I'm behind one of these guys and they're doing a cross country on the downwind, I'll sneak in my base leg over the golf course. I'm shut down on the ramp when they cross the numbers.

But, guys flying bomber patterns isn't just at IWS, it's freakin everywhere; very frustrating when you really just want to keep a tight pattern...
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Yeah, I see it plenty around here. I trained here, too, but my instructor was a fan of near and tight patterns.
 
mkosmo said:
How does any separation rule apply at an uncontrolled field? There's no such thing as any kind of incursion at an uncontrolled field.
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It doesn't apply as you say. No such 'rule' at uncontrolled airports.
 
Sundancer said:
Probably why towered airports can't handle the same volume as non-towered? Your choice, of course, but I wouldn't think of it as hurrying. ..
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That's because towered airports have to use the required separation between aircraft and controllers know the required separation. A lot of pilots don't.
 
I've departed with fast movers on final. If I feel I can take-off without the airplane altering anything, I will. If he changes something, he must not feel comfortable, his problem, not mine.
 
Timbeck2 said:
That's because towered airports have to use the required separation between aircraft and controllers know the required separation. A lot of pilots don't.
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???? There isn't any "required separation" value at uncontrolled fields, though. . I get it, that controllers at towered fields probably have some arbitrary time/ distance rule; hence the reduced volume they can handle.
 
Sundancer said:
???? There isn't any "required separation" value at uncontrolled fields, though. . I get it, that controllers at towered fields probably have some arbitrary time/ distance rule; hence the reduced volume they can handle.
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I think that controllers at some towered fields sequence airplanes much tighter than pilots would at an uncontrolled field, so the volume is increased not reduced.

I would see no reason not to depart just because someone announced they were downwind unless they added that they were doing a short approach in a Pitts or something.
 
Hmmmm. So controlled airports cannot handle as much volume as uncontrolled fields?

I thought the reason they were using control towers was to increase capacity at an airport.

Learned something new today
 
RalphInCA said:
Hmmmm. So controlled airports cannot handle as much volume as uncontrolled fields?

I thought the reason they were using control towers was to increase capacity at an airport.

Learned something new today
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That hasn't been my experience, but there are plenty of places I haven't been. There are a couple airports in my area that went from uncontrolled to towers, and the enforced separation requirements appear to reduce the capacity. The towers just keep airplanes farther apart, compared to before.
 
We took off as a flight of 3 today with a plane on downwind... we must really be in trouble now!
 
RalphInCA said:
Hmmmm. So controlled airports cannot handle as much volume as uncontrolled fields?

I thought the reason they were using control towers was to increase capacity at an airport.

Learned something new today
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I would bet that's right... If the traffic at uncontrolled airports wants to push things, there is no real required seperation limits. The boys in the tower don't have that flexibility.

I know I've departed uncontrolled airfields when the tower would have said "hold short".
 
I filled my only NASA report after an oops at a class D.

So I fly a lot of uncontrolled fields. Many grass. Well I was invited for a trip to a class D- almost a decade since my previous class D. Anyway, after waiting an eternity in line for takeoff, the controller said something but it wasn't lineup and wait or whatever it was at the time.

The controller got a little excited as I looked both ways and taxied out to go as it was obvious it was clear for takeoff. Oops. Things are really slowed down at a towered airport.

(Spent time with my local CFI after that. Kinda shakes your confidence when you do something that dumb.)
 
Sundancer said:
???? There isn't any "required separation" value at uncontrolled fields, though. . I get it, that controllers at towered fields probably have some arbitrary time/ distance rule; hence the reduced volume they can handle.
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"arbitrary"? Umm...no.
 
Then I guess it's just whatever the tower guy is comfortable with? Whatever the cause, my subjective experience is towers don't speed things up at all, and appear, in my experience, to handle a bit less.

Not knocking tower fields; plenty of positives, some negatives. Just that increases volume/flow isn't one if the positives.
 
It's not too surprising that having someone tell the cowboys that 300 feet separation is too little might slow things up.

You can sure get into an airport faster if you ignore all the other traffic and fly a long straight in with your face in a glass panel. Cooperating with other traffic takes a while.
 
Sundancer said:
Then I guess it's just whatever the tower guy is comfortable with? Whatever the cause, my subjective experience is towers don't speed things up at all, and appear, in my experience, to handle a bit less.

Not knocking tower fields; plenty of positives, some negatives. Just that increases volume/flow isn't one if the positives.
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You really think ORD could handle the traffic it does WITHOUT a tower? Hahahahahahhahahha.
 
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It means the software saves beginnings posts you were going to respond with but didn't - something I wish they would turn off.
 
Sundancer said:
Then I guess it's just whatever the tower guy is comfortable with? Whatever the cause, my subjective experience is towers don't speed things up at all, and appear, in my experience, to handle a bit less.

Not knocking tower fields; plenty of positives, some negatives. Just that increases volume/flow isn't one if the positives.
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Really???? You do understand ATC has precise procedures, right? Nothing arbitrary about it.
 
MAKG1 said:
I did have San Carlos tell me to wait for a Surf Air arrival on a 3+ mile straight in. I suppose it might have been a problem if that Pilatus needed to go around. Dang, those are fast planes, even on final. He didn't keep me waiting long.
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He was probably on an IFR flight plan, and ATC has minimum separation requirements for IFR aircraft. I can't remember what it is, but they were probably afraid that if they cleared you and you took your time that separation wouldn't be met.
 
Kritchlow said:
Really???? You do understand ATC has precise procedures, right? Nothing arbitrary about it.
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Make up your minds, guys? If tower controllers have separation standards, or not? Or, some lee-way based on the nature of the traffic? If there are standards, I'd wager they were arrived at by the usual FAA methods. Feel free to characterize those as you wish, somewhere on the spectrum between VooDoo and rational analysis.

If you read with some care, I mentioned my experience is that towered airports handle traffic less quickly. I'll qualify by adding "airports with predominantly GA traffic.

Geez, it's a wonder some guys can shave without getting into an argument. . .
 
Sundancer said:
Geez, it's a wonder some guys can shave without getting into an argument. . .
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Look around a bit. There are numerous online forums about shaving techniques and equipment. I haven't participated in those, but I do not entertain any illusions that they are argument-free.
 
Just ask if you got time - I do it every day. Usually the other pilot will say yes.
 
I don't recall if this has been mentioned, but I don't think that aircraft approaching to land have right-of-way until they're on final.
 
Sundancer said:
Make up your minds, guys? If tower controllers have separation standards, or not? Or, some lee-way based on the nature of the traffic? If there are standards, I'd wager they were arrived at by the usual FAA methods. Feel free to characterize those as you wish, somewhere on the spectrum between VooDoo and rational analysis.

If you read with some care, I mentioned my experience is that towered airports handle traffic less quickly. I'll qualify by adding "airports with predominantly GA traffic.

Geez, it's a wonder some guys can shave without getting into an argument. . .
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Well I'm confused. It appears to me that you are saying its arbitrary, and Timbeck and I are saying its not.
Perhaps I am not understanding your posts.
 
Last try, then off to arrange my sock drawer, or something equally as useful:
1. My subjective experience is that airports serving predominately GA traffic "jam up" a bit when a tower is activated
2. I do not know (or care) if there are strict, loose, or imaginary separation constraints tower controllers must adhere to
3. Please substitute "rigid", "sharply defined", "vague", or "subject to controller judgement" for "arbitrary", as fits your insight into tower ops
4. I do find FAA standards to generally be arbitrary, and for some things, that's probably good enough (cloud distances, VFR vis, medical expiration, etc.)
5. I don't hate towers. Many positives to them, a few negatives.
 
Sundancer said:
Last try, then off to arrange my sock drawer, or something equally as useful:
1. My subjective experience is that airports serving predominately GA traffic "jam up" a bit when a tower is activated
2. I do not know (or care) if there are strict, loose, or imaginary separation constraints tower controllers must adhere to
3. Please substitute "rigid", "sharply defined", "vague", or "subject to controller judgement" for "arbitrary", as fits your insight into tower ops
4. I do find FAA standards to generally be arbitrary, and for some things, that's probably good enough (cloud distances, VFR vis, medical expiration, etc.)
5. I don't hate towers. Many positives to them, a few negatives.
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Whatever..
Point is I don't recall anyone other than you claiming it was arbitrary, thus the confusion.
 
DavidWhite said:
Just ask if you got time - I do it every day. Usually the other pilot will say yes.
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I hesitate to answer questions like this as I have no idea how quickly some guy can take off. I've seen people taxi into position and just sit there for an ungodly amount of time. If a pilot doesn't know he has enough time to takeoff, he doesn't have enough time and should just wait instead of expecting the landing pilot to fly his airplane for him. I know I can takeoff if I'm holding short, number one, with someone abeam the numbers on downwind but I don't have a clue if someone else can.

If I see someone holding short as I'm coming up abeam the numbers, I'll ask him if he's ready to go and offer to adjust my pattern so he feels comfortable taking off. But that should be a clue that he'd better takeoff with no delay or just say he'll hold short for the landing traffic. If he doesn't say anything then I'm going to land but I'll be very ready to go around if he decides to pull out onto the runway before I've touched down.
 
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Sundancer said:
Last try, then off to arrange my sock drawer, or something equally as useful:
1. My subjective experience is that airports serving predominately GA traffic "jam up" a bit when a tower is activated
Can you express, in your subjective experience of course, why you think that is, specifically? And inversely, why specifically do you think non-towered airports are less jammed up?
2. I do not know (or care) if there are strict, loose, or imaginary separation constraints tower controllers must adhere to
Well then I guess you don't care if someone has an answer so I may just be writing this in the blind.
3. Please substitute "rigid", "sharply defined", "vague", or "subject to controller judgement" for "arbitrary", as fits your insight into tower ops
Controllers must meet FAA separation standards: a few examples and I'll keep this in the realm of GA aircraft. In order to clear subsequent aircraft for takeoff, the preceding aircraft has to be 6,000' down the runway (or beyond if the runway is less than 6,000') and airborne OR turned at least 15 degrees to avoid conflict. For say, a Cessna 152 to land behind another Cessna 152 you have to have 3,500' before the subsequent 152 crosses the runway threshold. If an IFR small aircraft follows a VFR or IFR large aircraft to land, I have to make sure there is 2 miles of wake turbulence separation before the small aircraft crosses the runway threshold. Now if one controller's eye is calibrated looser or tighter than the next controller's eye, then you might cross the line into "arbitrary" or some other word which means every controller isn't created equal.
4. I do find FAA standards to generally be arbitrary, and for some things, that's probably good enough (cloud distances, VFR vis, medical expiration, etc.)
On this we agree.
5. I don't hate towers. Many positives to them, a few negatives.
Other than someone telling you what to do, I'm interested in the negatives.
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Remember, I'm a pilot as well as a controller. There are many things that annoy me about pilots in my pattern but each one is created differently. Some dilly dally on the runway after they are cleared for take off, some fly out to a 5 mile base before turning final, some get confused about who they are or where they are in relation to the airport they are coming to when I have other traffic for them to mix with.

There are many things that annoy me about other controllers such as getting all ****y with pilots when they get busy or when a pilot has trouble listening or responding for some unknown reason. Bad controllers who don't pay attention to what is going on annoy me as well as controllers who say things that make the entire tower look bad, etc, etc.
 
Then you deserve double sympathy, having to put up with the occasional donkey on both sides of the radio. Hopefully not too often, though.

So, I presume tower controllers may have separation constraints that reduce the space available for traffic, as opposed to uncontrolled fields? Whether these (possible) constraints are hard numbers, or left to the controller's judgement, I don't know. Are there standards for traffic separation in the pattern?

Anyway, VFR traffic appears able to "self separate" with closer intervals than with tower ops, at the same airport. I'd guess there is a point in the curve when it gets so busy, or the traffic mix changes enough, that a traffic cop becomes necessary, at the price of slowing movement a bit.
 
Timbeck2 said:
...Some dilly dally on the runway after they are cleared for take off...
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Who does this? I mean really, who in their right mind does this. The runway is the last place I want to do anything except for takeoff, or land. If I am going to practice short field take offs, then I'll request a short delay, but other than that I can see no good reason to do anything on the runway except punch the throttle and get airborne. Anything else that needs to happen should be done on the solid side of the hold short line. I haven't been flying that long, but is this a problem that some people have?
 
azpilot said:
Who does this? I mean really, who in their right mind does this. The runway is the last place I want to do anything except for takeoff, or land. If I am going to practice short field take offs, then I'll request a short delay, but other than that I can see no good reason to do anything on the runway except punch the throttle and get airborne. Anything else that needs to happen should be done on the solid side of the hold short line. I haven't been flying that long, but is this a problem that some people have?
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Some people do a final DG/Trim check, and those people are sometimes slow.
 
Sundancer said:
...So, I presume tower controllers may have separation constraints that reduce the space available for traffic, as opposed to uncontrolled fields? Whether these (possible) constraints are hard numbers, or left to the controller's judgement, I don't know. Are there standards for traffic separation in the pattern?

Anyway, VFR traffic appears able to "self separate" with closer intervals than with tower ops, at the same airport. I'd guess there is a point in the curve when it gets so busy, or the traffic mix changes enough, that a traffic cop becomes necessary, at the price of slowing movement a bit.
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We have hard separation minimums be they landing, departing, radar or wake turbulence minimums. The "standards for separation in the pattern" is an educated guess for spacing to get the required separation (listed previously) on the ground. Not arbitrary numbers but FAA separation minimums.
 
EdFred said:
Some people do a final DG/Trim check, and those people are sometimes slow.
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I've seen even worse. I've seen pilots taxi into position and then wait for an IFR clearance/release on a different frequency at an uncontrolled field-- Absolutely no consideration for anyone else.
 
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