Taking off with a plane on downwind

Shish. I've had folks depart while I've been on final. Not something I would do.

If you have visual, departing while someone is on base isn't an issue in my book. (Although I usually wait then as well. )
 
I didn't see what the OP was flying. If I'm at max gross I need 600' of that runway so if the 182 is abeam the numbers I'd be at 2000 AGL before he turned base. If I was in a 152 I'd probably wait and critique his landing ;)


Edit: Switched example to AGL, We don't all live in the flat lands of Texas!
 
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Stewartb said:
Would you have been cleared to takeoff at a towered airport? Not at my airport. I'll go if somebody's midfield downwind but abeam the numbers I'll wait. No teason to hurry.
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I worked many towers in the Air Force and abeam the numbers not a problem unless you're talking about a fighter! There's terminology for that also, "cleared for immediate takeoff or hold short", "traffic a Cessna 182 abeam the numbers".
 
Stewartb said:
Would you have been cleared to takeoff at a towered airport? Not at my airport. I'll go if somebody's midfield downwind but abeam the numbers I'll wait. No teason to hurry.
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Yes, I get cleared for takeoff frequently with traffic turning base. Usually "no delay" if they are that far along.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yes, I get cleared for takeoff frequently with traffic turning base. Usually "no delay" if they are that far along.
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Same here. In fact, last week I was about 2500' from the departure end and informed tower I would be ready to depart when I reached the end of the runway. Traffic was on downwind, I was cleared for takeoff from my current position, and I rolled onto the runway as he was turning base. I was off and done making my crosswind turn as the traffic announced his go around doing pattern work.
 
This is why being able to take off "on the go" (no stopping from taxiway to takeoff) is a good skill to have.

I was at Santa Monica a class D, and the frequency was so busy, when tower cleared you for takeoff, you just took off, no reply. And yes, there were planes on final, on base and on downwind.

So it varies. You have to be flexible.
 
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The part the OP didn't tell us is that he was taking off in a 747 and caused wake turbulence... (just kidding)
Yeah, you did the right thing and I wouldn't hesitate with somebody on the downwind. If they're turning base I'd personally wait unless they were on one of those 5 mile away base turns.
 
I did the same thing as a student pilot on my first solo. I was in a 152 on the parallel taxiway facing into final and could not see the airplane that announced it was on downwind.

So I waited, and waited some more. After an eternity, the Super Cub on amphibious floats landed and I took the runway to depart.

The guy might have his reasons for extending, but none of them would be your fault IMO. Even if he's abeam that's a ton of time and plenty of spacing.
 
Stewartb said:
Would you have been cleared to takeoff at a towered airport? Not at my airport. I'll go if somebody's midfield downwind but abeam the numbers I'll wait. No teason to hurry.
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The towered airport I live at has cleared me for takeoff with a jet on a 5 mile final, so pretty safe to assume they'd clear me with a bug smasher that has yet to even turn base.
 
Stewartb said:
Would you have been cleared to takeoff at a towered airport? Not at my airport. I'll go if somebody's midfield downwind but abeam the numbers I'll wait. No teason to hurry.
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Given my experience at KCHD (which is towered), I am fairly confident they would have cleared me to take off in that situation.
 
I've never had a problem with spacing at pilot-controlled fields. Seriously, some people need to learn their aircraft limits better.

I was in a Cherokee 180 overflying the field behind a high wing experimental who was going like, 80 knots tops. Just power back slow down and space things out a bit. He was down and taxiing off the runway just as I was coming down over the numbers.

Here in FL at KVNC we get a LOT of people in and out of that field during the weekend. If you have to wait until a plane gets off the runway and up to pattern altitude to start your approach there would be a line of planes to Naples.

Some people start their roll with others on base or even final (depends on the distance).
 
Yep. If it's a slower airplane and he is JUST turning final, I see no issue with the aircraft on the runway taking off as long as he's rolling immediately.
 
The other side of this is controllers leaving way too much space and you end up on extended downwinds, departure delays, etc.
Tighten it up people and wear your big boy pants.
 
Getonit said:
The other side of this is controllers leaving way too much space and you end up on extended downwinds, departure delays, etc.
Tighten it up people and wear your big boy pants.
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Yeah, I'd much rather accept a short approach then do 2 360s, an S turn and an extended downwind..ugh.

But, at my home field (KSRQ) we do have a lot of jet traffic. Not always a good idea or possibility for tower to give us a turn inside of their final. It HAS happened to me, once. And ironically that was the one time I was not permitted to accept a short approach (flight school rules for a student pilot). Since getting my license, haven't been given one yet at my home field, but WAS given one down in Naples. Turned inside a Lear on final and got off the runway ASAP.
 
As a controller, I've always kept my patterns tight because you never know when you're going to get busy. One of the first things I learned back in 1992 when I first started was, "you can't fly it for em." You clear them for takeoff, you have no control over how much time they dilly dally on the runway. You clear them to land, you have no control over how far they take the downwind.

To answer the OP's question. I'd roll any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Once my checklist is done I'm ready to go. There isn't anything left to do once I take the runway other than push the throttle up. If Mr. Extendo has a problem with it, he'll realize that he was wrong with the attitude when I'm long gone before he even crosses the numbers.
 
Caramon13 said:
Not always a good idea or possibility for tower to give us a turn inside of their final. It HAS happened to me, once. And ironically that was the one time I was not permitted to accept a short approach (flight school rules for a student pilot). Since getting my license, haven't been given one yet at my home field, but WAS given one down in Naples. Turned inside a Lear on final and got off the runway ASAP.
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If you're uncomfortable you don't have to accept the clearance. Just tell the tower you'll wait. Not a problem.
 
I agree with most of the comments here that there was no danger and the other pilot was just being a donkey. (see what I did there? :D )
From another perspective (of the landing pilot), with an airplane holding short of the rwy when I am on base or even long final, I have been known to ask whether they are ready for immediate and offer for them to squeeze in. Usually this is met with gratitude and an immediate takeoff. By the time I am touching down, the departing airplane is a few miles out.

It is all about communication, talking to each other and making sure we do this FUN STUFF safely. It should be about safety, sure, but it should be fun too, dagnabbit.
If you run into a curmudgeon, sorry, it happens. Skip over it and enjoy your day.

No go fly, people, it is gorgeous outside. Why isn't it Friday yet?? :(
 
Grum.Man said:
Taking off with an airplane on downwind or base is fine as long as you know the type and what to expect. Heard a plane call Turning base and thought shoot that's plenty of time to get out. He politely asked me to wait and before I could respond a bright red Pitts in a descending left turn appeared off the end of the runway and put it right on the numbers.
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Hey I resemble that remark! I thought that was you - not too many orange Grummans around. I get along fine with the flight school crowd out there as long as I make the effort to communicate exactly what I'm doing, that I have them in sight, and won't be a factor.
 
iamtheari said:
Jets move fast and people typically guesstimate their actual distance from the field rather than knowing it accurately. A Citation driver might say 15 miles when he means 10 and has already flown 5 more in the time he took to tune the radio and make the call. In the instance I am thinking of, we barely waited at all as he flew overhead and turned 270 degrees onto final, then we took off across his landing runway while he got himself turned around to back-taxi to the ramp. Efficient operations for everyone and nobody had to contemplate the "Can I make it?" question.
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I think you're overestimating the speed of a jet. Most Biz jets are in the 110-140 range on final. I fly from a towered field with a LOT of jet traffic. The tower clears me almost daily with jets on 6 or more mile final, and "cleared for immediate" all the way down to 3. If it's another single piston they clear for immediate with people on a 1 mile final. No way in hell would I sit and wait for someone saying they are 15 miles out. Even if they misjudged by 5 miles, that's still plenty of time, and if they misjudged by 10 miles they are gonna have more problems landing on the first third than just me taking off. Time for a go-around.

As for the OP, I totally would have gone. Downwind isn't near close enough to worry about. Generally I won't go if someone is on final, but if someone is in a slow plane, flying a big pattern (like a cub on a 3 mile final) and I have them in sight, I might give a call that I'm gonna sneak out real quick. I've yet to have an issue.
 
120mph is 2 miles a minute. Time yourself from entering the runway to takeoff sometime. Might be useful to know.
 
Considering how far out many folks at my home airport turn base, I routinely depart when they're on final, even. It's never been an issue. I had to abort once in that situation once, though, and the guy was gracious enough to go around even though I was off with plenty of time for him. No bad blood, no issues. He even wished me luck resolving the issue!

I also very rarely stop once I'm past the hold short. Once I cross, I'm wheels up within a matter of seconds.
 
coloradobluesky said:
120mph is 2 miles a minute. Time yourself from entering the runway to takeoff sometime. Might be useful to know.
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That's a good point. I went back and looked at a youtube video I put up that shows me taking off. From the point that I entered the runway to the point where I lifted off the ground it was 31 seconds.
 
Good thing to know.
60mph is 1 mile per minute, 90 is 1 1/2 mile per minute, 120 is 2 miles per minute

Also, 88' per second is 60mph, round it to 100' per second for 60 Nmph . That one is useful for calculating how much runway you eat up being high. If you are coming in at 60Nmph, that is horizontally 100 feet per second, coming down at 600' per minute is 10' per second. So every for every 10' you are high, you eat up 100 feet of runway. For every 100' high, you eat up 1000' of runway. Now if you are coming in at 90, multiply that by 1.5. All doable in your head, if you are inclined that way.
 
I did have San Carlos tell me to wait for a Surf Air arrival on a 3+ mile straight in. I suppose it might have been a problem if that Pilatus needed to go around. Dang, those are fast planes, even on final. He didn't keep me waiting long.
 
azpilot said:
So, my question is, at what point is it too late to try and depart at an non-towered field with other traffic in the pattern.

If I was in the same situation again, I wouldn't hesitate to depart again, but I am open to modifying my methods and thinking if I did something out of the ordinary here.
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I used to sit in my truck and time landings at my field when I started in 2007 (recommended and still do it occasionally just to watch planes land). The power-off Pitts guys are about a minute. Everyone else is at LEAST 2 minutes sometimes as long as 3 minutes if they're students using all the incremental flap slow down (from abeam the numbers).

I wasn't familiar with "over head break", but got to time some of those ... they're all over the place, so if I hear one I generally wait them out.
 
danhagan said:
I wasn't familiar with "over head break", but got to time some of those ... they're all over the place, so if I hear one I generally wait them out.
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Just don't pull out in front of an F-16 doing a SFO (simulated flame out). They start around 7000' agl and glide like a crowbar to the runway. Cool to watch 'em!
 
whifferdill said:
Hey I resemble that remark! I thought that was you - not too many orange Grummans around. I get along fine with the flight school crowd out there as long as I make the effort to communicate exactly what I'm doing, that I have them in sight, and won't be a factor.
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I was wondering if you would see that ;-). Us spam can pilots aren't used to brick like decent rates. I enjoyed the show... from the hold short line!
 
heh - when I was a student (with my CFI), very early on, my tower got a little busy. Tower cleared me for takeoff, then said "expedite". I'd never heard that command before, and it caught me off guard. I stopped and was about to say "Huh? Whaaa?" when my CFI pushed in the throttle and said, "Get moving!"
 
EdFred said:
His problem, not yours. Dude is probably scared of his own shadow.

Even if he does a power off 180 from abeam the numbers, you still have enough time to IMMEDIATELY depart. When I was doing power off 180's in my Cherokee 180, it would still take about a minute from power pull to touchdown.

As far as what point is it too late. Depends on the airplane attempting to land, and how much you dilly dally on takeoff. If I am on final, and still not planning to touchdown for another 30 seconds, I'm fine with you taking off in front of me. 15 seconds I probably still won't say anything, provided you are rolling immediately.
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Bingo, well said.
 
Most of my takeoffs lately have been with landing lights shining towards me. "XYZ, line up and wait runway one two right. UVX on four mile final." Your downwind guy was just being a jerk. Ignore it.
 
Probably why towered airports can't handle the same volume as non-towered? Your choice, of course, but I wouldn't think of it as hurrying. ..
 
Sundancer said:
Probably why towered airports can't handle the same volume as non-towered?...
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That depends on how sharp the controllers are (which depends on the level of traffic).
 
Sundancer said:
Probably why towered airports can't handle the same volume as non-towered? QUOTE

A fighter base can get pretty darn busy. One moment you're doing nothing, and then they return to base and you're working 10-15 in the pattern. Almost like an airshow and they can do some amazing things in the pattern for a controller to help out. One base I was at had around 100 fighters plus other stuff too, and the airlines landed on base too. A good mix of just about everything. A challenging but fun tower to work.
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mkosmo said:
Considering how far out many folks at my home airport turn base, I routinely depart when they're on final, even.
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West Houston, ugh, the home of the 2-3 mile final. I think the flight school there is training B-52 or Airbus pilots, they always fly huuuuge patterns. Get a couple of them in the pattern at the same time, forget it. If I'm behind one of these guys and they're doing a cross country on the downwind, I'll sneak in my base leg over the golf course. I'm shut down on the ramp when they cross the numbers.

But, guys flying bomber patterns isn't just at IWS, it's freakin everywhere; very frustrating when you really just want to keep a tight pattern...
 
lol!!! Didn't read any of the responses, but if he's on downwind it's likely three airplanes could have departed.
 
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