Taking off with a plane on downwind

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
I did most of my training at a towered field. At the time I took my checkride, I had done 178 landings. Only about two dozen of those were performed at non-towered fields, and most were touch and go's. Needless to say, I don't have a lot of experience departing from non-towered fields.

On a flight I made a little while back, I was at a non-towered field. I had finished my run up and was ready to depart. I had been listening to the traffic. There was one plane on downwind. He was a 182 and announced that he was abeam the numbers. In my mind, this meant I had plenty of time to depart. I announced that I was taking off on the same runway that he was intending to land on. Right after I announced that I was taking off, he announced (with an every so slightly exasperated tone) that he was extending his downwind. At that point there wasn't much I could do as I was already rolling down the runway.

So, my question is, at what point is it too late to try and depart at an non-towered field with other traffic in the pattern. I felt very comfortable departing with this other guy abeam the numbers, but from his reaction, it seemed that he was not. I thought I was being very safe, but I also want to be a good member of the community and try and make flying as safe and enjoyable for everyone as possible.

If I was in the same situation again, I wouldn't hesitate to depart again, but I am open to modifying my methods and thinking if I did something out of the ordinary here.

Thanks for your input.
 
His problem, not yours. Dude is probably scared of his own shadow.

Even if he does a power off 180 from abeam the numbers, you still have enough time to IMMEDIATELY depart. When I was doing power off 180's in my Cherokee 180, it would still take about a minute from power pull to touchdown.

As far as what point is it too late. Depends on the airplane attempting to land, and how much you dilly dally on takeoff. If I am on final, and still not planning to touchdown for another 30 seconds, I'm fine with you taking off in front of me. 15 seconds I probably still won't say anything, provided you are rolling immediately.
 
I don't think you did anything out of the ordinary or wrong. One issue with non-towered airports is that many people have their own beliefs of what's normal. If I were abeam the numbers and you announced you were departing, I wouldn't change my pattern at all and just keep on making my calls.

I trained at a towered airport as well, and it did take me a while before I got used to non-towered airports for this reason. A lot of non-towered only pilots are really pretty timid. I wouldn't worry about it.
 
azpilot said:
I announced that I was taking off on the same runway that he was intending to land on. Right after I announced that I was taking off, he announced (with an every so slightly exasperated tone) that he was extending his downwind. At that point there wasn't much I could do as I was already rolling down the runway.
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If you didn't have visual contact with the aircraft or enough of the final and base leg to ensure you had time to depart, you shouldn't have taken off, IMO. Don't rely on position reports instead of your own two eyes.

dtuuri
 
Nothing you did was wrong. The other pilot must have thought they had priority or was butt hurt. Then making a sarcastic advisory that they were extending downwind was uncalled for IMO, but they were just being an ass. Now if they had advised they were doing a simulated forced landing BEFORE you advised you were departing, then I would probably cut them a little slack and wait.

Cutoff I'd say before they turn final ought to be fine as long as you don't sit there for more than 5-10 seconds or so.
 
Extending his downwind means he was still on downwind... unless he states he's doing a simulated engine out I would go. If someone is practicing, I would hold up just as I would in a real emergency. I've taken off with planes on a wide base leg and it hasn't been a factor.
 
You didn't do anything wrong. Abeam the numbers is plenty of time to get a departure out
 
I would have taken off in your situation. In his, I'd be watching carefully to see where you were but continue landing normally. As long as you were off the ground by the time I turned final, I wouldn't be concerned.

So yeah the guy was being overly cautious but I guess that doesn't hurt anything either.
 
I trained at a non-towered airport, as much in a J-3 Cub as I could. We have crossing runways, one of which is grass, and no full-length taxiways. Plenty of air traffic from spray planes up to corporate jets. I think the key is to be courteous and use a healthy dose of common sense. When I am back-taxiing on the grass to get into position for takeoff and hear a Citation announce from 15 miles out that he's landing on the paved runway, I wait. When there is a Cirrus finishing his run-up and getting ready to take off and I am turning onto my final going about 55 mph, I don't expect the other plane to wait.

In your situation, I would have taken off. And if it were at my home airport and I was the guy in the 182, I would have probably thanked you for getting off the ground before I landed. Otherwise, I'd have had to taxi to the end of the runway and hold on the little run-up pad there until you got off the ground and turned off your upwind leg, seeing as your holding position would have been blocking the only route for me to taxi to the ramp.

And that's what I mean about common sense. Operations at non-towered airports are not a zero-sum game where one guy has to give something up for someone else to gain. As far as the other guy's attitude, I wouldn't worry about that but just suggest that you can and always should be the bigger person in those situations. Being courteous and professional is also not a zero-sum game. Everyone wins even if not everyone plays.

By the way, don't rely on CTAF to understand the traffic situation. There's no requirement to even have a radio at a non-towered airport. CTAF is an aid to your visual search for traffic to see and avoid, but your eyes and brain are the primary tools.
 
dtuuri said:
If you didn't have visual contact with the aircraft or enough of the final and base leg to ensure you had time to depart, you shouldn't have taken off, IMO. Don't rely on position reports instead of your own two eyes.

dtuuri
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You make a good point. I did have visual contact though. I was right at the numbers (well on the taxiway adjacent to the numbers) looking forward and could see him on downwind. Visibility was great and there was no other traffic.
 
iamtheari said:
And that's what I mean about common sense. Operations at non-towered airports are not a zero-sum game where one guy has to give something up for someone else to gain. As far as the other guy's attitude, I wouldn't worry about that but just suggest that you can and always should be the bigger person in those situations. Being courteous and professional is also not a zero-sum game. Everyone wins even if not everyone plays.
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I think this is a great point. I should point out, the exasperation in his voice was ever so slight. I have a problem with worrying too much what other people think. It was probably me reading into the situation more than I should have. He remained professional and announced that he was extending his downwind by 1 mile. I don't know exactly what he did after that as I was focused on flying.

iamtheari said:
By the way, don't rely on CTAF to understand the traffic situation. There's no requirement to even have a radio at a non-towered airport. CTAF is an aid to your visual search for traffic to see and avoid, but your eyes and brain are the primary tools.
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That is a really good point also.
 
I have learned to 'communicate' with people in the pattern......"oh, you're on downwind, are you comfortable with me departing now, no delay?". it works wonders.
 
azpilot said:
You make a good point. I did have visual contact though. I was right at the numbers (well on the taxiway adjacent to the numbers) looking forward and could see him on downwind. Visibility was great and there was no other traffic.
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To me, that sounds like you were just fine then. If I was in the 182, I *might* extend my downwind (and let you know about it) simply so that you didn't feel rushed. But, I definitely wouldn't think you jumped ahead of my landing if you're taking the runway while I'm still on downwind (or even if I'm on a base leg).
 
Generally you can take off even if they are on base. Just be quick. When you announce say "for quick takeoff".
 
Unless he's slipping down a short approach, it takes two minutes to make a normal descent from 1000 AGL in a 182. Even with the engine at idle in clean configuration (i.e., a power-off 180).
 
iamtheari said:
When I am back-taxiing on the grass to get into position for takeoff and hear a Citation announce from 15 miles out that he's landing on the paved runway, I wait.
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You'd really wait for a plane 15 miles out? Was that like an 8 minute wait?
 
orange said:
You'd really wait for a plane 15 miles out? Was that like an 8 minute wait?
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Jets move fast and people typically guesstimate their actual distance from the field rather than knowing it accurately. A Citation driver might say 15 miles when he means 10 and has already flown 5 more in the time he took to tune the radio and make the call. In the instance I am thinking of, we barely waited at all as he flew overhead and turned 270 degrees onto final, then we took off across his landing runway while he got himself turned around to back-taxi to the ramp. Efficient operations for everyone and nobody had to contemplate the "Can I make it?" question.
 
I think you may have just mistook the tone of the 182 pilot. It was entirely appropriate, if he felt more comfortable about it, for him to extend his downwind for a little bit until he was sure you going to be clear of the runway. It was fine for you to depart ahead of him, though I would make it clear on my call that I was "rolling for immediate takeoff, runway X", so he knew that you knew not to delay departure.
 
azpilot said:
announced that he was extending his downwind by 1 mile.
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The 182 pilot probably needs some education in non-towered airport procedures. Extending for a mile is *way* excessive for the situation. He only needed to add (if needed) enough room to have about half a mile (nominally 3,000' I think is the rule ATC uses) between you and him on/over the runway.
 
You where fine,if he had declared ,practice engine out going straight for the numbers ,I would probably wait. The airport is for all to enjoy. You may have misread his tone,he could have been insuring you that you had time to get off,as he was extending.
 
If we didn't take off at my airport when people were on downwind, we'd never get out of there. We can have two or more planes and a gyro doing touch-n-goes at any given time.
 
maybe he was practicing 'extending downwind', which in all honesty, wouldn't be a bad thing for students to do once or twice. I doubt that's what happened, but I've made my point.
 
azpilot said:
I think this is a great point. I should point out, the exasperation in his voice was ever so slight. I have a problem with worrying too much what other people think. It was probably me reading into the situation more than I should have. He remained professional and announced that he was extending his downwind by 1 mile. I don't know exactly what he did after that as I was focused on flying.



That is a really good point also.
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The plane on downwind would be decelerating, while on your takeoff roll you are accelerating. Much ado about nothing on his part. Try to overcome your tendency to worry about what other's think or make inferences from their tone of voice...you are the PIC. Do what needs to be done.

Bob Gardner
 
I'll sometimes have traffic depart when I'm abeam the numbers, or on base, but it's usually someone based at the field. I'll often do the same. Usually it's no big deal. I've extended my downwind before, just so the other guy isn't rushed, but it's not normally needed.
 
I fly at a busy non-towered field. Not uncommon for 5-6 planes to be in the pattern. Unless I'm missing something, a plane on downwind is not a problem.

I do agree you need to "see" them and not rely on position reports. I also agree if it's tight, just call them.
 
azpilot said:
You make a good point. I did have visual contact though. I was right at the numbers (well on the taxiway adjacent to the numbers) looking forward and could see him on downwind. Visibility was great and there was no other traffic.
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In that case, disregard the pilot's presumed annoyance. If the pattern was at your back and you couldn't see, you'd have to maneuver enough to clear the base leg of close-in traffic and check final. If you never take off until you can see it's safe, other people's misguided notions won't bother you so much. :)

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
If you didn't have visual contact with the aircraft or enough of the final and base leg to ensure you had time to depart, you shouldn't have taken off, IMO. Don't rely on position reports instead of your own two eyes.

dtuuri
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exactly. what's the rush? any number of things could go wrong. as my first CFI told me...nothing good comes from being in a hurry.
 
Interesting thread. A couple years ago, a C-172 was on downwind and I went ahead and took off. As I was rolling he announced he was "going around, aircraft on the runway." I have felt kind of bad ever since then, although now and at the time, I felt he had plenty of time go get in behind me. It is good to see other pilots who would have done the same thing.
 
Taking off with an airplane on downwind or base is fine as long as you know the type and what to expect. Heard a plane call Turning base and thought shoot that's plenty of time to get out. He politely asked me to wait and before I could respond a bright red Pitts in a descending left turn appeared off the end of the runway and put it right on the numbers.

In short a Pitts abeam the numbers is about 15 seconds from touch down where a Cessna abeam the numbers is about 1-2 minutes from touchdown.
 
somorris said:
Interesting thread. A couple years ago, a C-172 was on downwind and I went ahead and took off. As I was rolling he announced he was "going around, aircraft on the runway." I have felt kind of bad ever since then, although now and at the time, I felt he had plenty of time go get in behind me. It is good to see other pilots who would have done the same thing.
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That is crazy! About 2 weeks ago my wife & I flew into Urbana Grimes and as I was abeam the numbers and decelerating (to Bob's point) another airplane asked if they could depart. With them in sight, I said you've got plenty of time! In my 172, I wasn't even at the end of my base before he was 50' off the deck. Still decelerating, he was looong gone before I touched wheels to pavement.

P.S. His polite tone also helped!
 
You have plenty of time to take off if someone is on base, let alone downwind, as long as you do it immediately.
But try to be airborne by the time the following traffic is on final, so he/she doesn't feel crowded.
 
Forget you have a radio. You should be able to look out the window and determine if there is an aircraft that is close enough to create a conflict if you depart. You would still go though that exercise at a towered airport after you received takeoff clearance right? (I would).
 
Lowflynjack said:
If we didn't take off at my airport when people were on downwind, we'd never get out of there. We can have two or more planes and a gyro doing touch-n-goes at any given time.
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Exactly the same situation at my airport, especially on weekends.

I'll take off as long as they are not on final. I just won't dawdle on the runway.
 
I've taken off with an inbound on loooong final; he was a mile and a half out in a 152. I was crosswind before he was over the fence. Busy day in the pattern, no issue. . .
 
RalphInCA said:
Exactly the same situation at my airport, especially on weekends. I'll take off as long as they are not on final. I just won't dawdle on the runway.
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I agree. I'm not sure how anyone thinks he did something wrong. If he was on downwind abeam the numbers, he still had to fly a little further on downwind, turn base, then turn final. I would never hesitate to takeoff if someone says they're on any part of downwind. If they're on base, I'll judge how far out they are and usually wait, but it depends on how far out they are on base. Some guys don't get the concept of flying a pattern within gliding distance of the runway and base can be pretty far out!
 
Sac Arrow said:
Forget you have a radio. You should be able to look out the window and determine if there is an aircraft that is close enough to create a conflict if you depart. You would still go though that exercise at a towered airport after you received takeoff clearance right? (I would).[/QUOTE]

THIS! I teach this to my students. I was ATC and saw the controller mistakes.
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I've taken off with planes on downwind and base. A few weeks ago, a plane took off while I was on the takeoff leg. Sounds like this was no big deal and the other pilot needs to stop flying 737 patterns at untowered airports.
 
Would you have been cleared to takeoff at a towered airport? Not at my airport. I'll go if somebody's midfield downwind but abeam the numbers I'll wait. No teason to hurry.
 
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