Takeoff under the hood?

[Mtns2Skies]

How did I line up on the runway? Opened the little window in the C310 and peered out.

Not to nitpick, but how would opening a window help you taxi in 0/0? Unless the issue was with the windows themselves, opening it would result in the same visibility as with it closed.

 

[Kritchlow]

Not to nitpick, but how would opening a window help you taxi in 0/0? Unless the issue was with the windows themselves, opening it would result in the same visibility as with it closed.

Correct. The issue was with the windows themselves.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Like what? I suppose Cirrus pilots can pull the parachute if things do south. What other emergency options are you envisioning that don't involve shooting an approach to get back down?

I never said it wouldn’t involve an approach. An approach to another nearby airport that would get you on the ground before you’d get to the IAF for the approach to where you took off would work quite well.

As I understand it, pilots of commercial passenger carrying aircraft aren't allowed to take off into 0/0 conditions. I would be happily corrected if I am mistaken.

Well, there ya go. You ARE talking about something different than we are.

 

[steingar]

I never said it wouldn’t involve an approach. An approach to another nearby airport that would get you on the ground before you’d get to the IAF for the approach to where you took off would work quite well.

If the airport is that nearby why do you think the weather conditions are going to be that different? Alright, there are instance where that might be the case. For example, a valley will have low visibility far longer than the surrounding areas. Coastal fog tends to be limited. I'm certain there are other examples. But they are limited in geography and present their own challenges. Fro example, if you're flying out of a valley, how do you know the issue that makes you want to be on the ground won't keep you from out climbing the hills? Most coastal areas are heavily developed, do you have the power to get past all the civilization to the next airport?

Rather than have to worry about all this stuff, I'll stay on the ground if it's that low. Heck, it's what my training materials say to do. I'm only studying for the IR, haven't got it yet. That said, I can see how it makes weather decisions that much more difficult.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If the airport is that nearby why do you think the weather conditions are going to be that different? Alright, there are instance where that might be the case. For example, a valley will have low visibility far longer than the surrounding areas. Coastal fog tends to be limited. I'm certain there are other examples. But they are limited in geography and present their own challenges. Fro example, if you're flying out of a valley, how do you know the issue that makes you want to be on the ground won't keep you from out climbing the hills? Most coastal areas are heavily developed, do you have the power to get past all the civilization to the next airport?

Rather than have to worry about all this stuff, I'll stay on the ground if it's that low. Heck, it's what my training materials say to do. I'm only studying for the IR, haven't got it yet. That said, I can see how it makes weather decisions that much more difficult.

The reported weather would make me think it’s above minimums. It could even be the same weather as the airport I’m departing, just with a better approach.

Been there hundreds of times. Again, set your minimums where you want, but don’t let your inexperience try to dictate what’s safe for others.

 

[Doc Holliday]

As I understand it, pilots of commercial passenger carrying aircraft aren't allowed to take off into 0/0 conditions. I would be happily corrected if I am mistaken.

Airlines can use 500RVR for takeoff. 500 feet is not much, and as the speed increases becomes even less. 500 feet forward visibility at 140knots is almost nil, using edge lights and centerline lights for guidance. The rotation is strictly on instruments.

 

[kgruber]

It is good instruction.

The inner ear will give you false information during the rapid acceleration. This must be ignored.

We used to do it occasionally out of Boeing Field, Part 135. The visibility was too low for passengers, so we would send them up to Sea-Tac..............take off 0/0 and pick them up where the VIS was better.

Boeing FIeld also contracted with a DC-3, to drop (I forget what chemical) over the runway to improve RVR. The DC-3 crew was great! They would drop the load right over the RVR meter for instant results.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Boeing FIeld also contracted with a DC-3, to drop (I forget what chemical) over the runway to improve RVR. The DC-3 crew was great! They would drop the load right over the RVR meter for instant results.

I used to know a guy who did that with a B-17...with his non-pilot wife or 14-year-old son in the right seat.

 

[Pugs]

If the airport is that nearby why do you think the weather conditions are going to be that different? Alright, there are instance where that might be the case.

Seriously? Not sure where you fly out of but even here in inland MD the conditions between KFDK, KGAI, KTHV, KMRB and KHGR are all within 40 miles of each other and can vary a significant amount and if I were to take off at any of them they would often be fine alternatives from each other.

I'm not encouraging 0/0 takeoffs but some on POA seem to relish the absurd arguments. A friend of mine, who passed away yesterday at 79, described similar people as "often wrong but never uncertain" - No, not pointing fingers but my time in aviation has taught me there are very few absolutes.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Seriously? Not sure where you fly out of but even here in inland MD the conditions between KFDK, KGAI, KTHV, KMRB and KHGR are all within 40 miles of each other and can vary a signifiant amount and if I were to take off at any of them they would often be fine alternatives from each other.

I'm not encouraging 0/0 takeoffs but some on POA seem to relish the absurd arguments. A friend of mine, who passed away yesterday at 79, described similar people as "often wrong but never uncertain" - No, not pointing fingers but my time in aviation has taught me there are very few absolutes.

Most of this discussion (at least the last page and a half) haven’t been about 0/0 takeoffs. There is plenty between that and “above minimums for the approach”.

 

[steingar]

Seriously? Not sure where you fly out of but even here in inland MD the conditions between KFDK, KGAI, KTHV, KMRB and KHGR are all within 40 miles of each other and can vary a signifiant amount and if I were to take off at any of them they would often be fine alternatives from each other.

Where I live conditions will be identical for about 50 miles. I should demur a bit. The majority of people, therefore the majority of pilots, live within 100 miles of either coast. So it could be that conditions do indeed vary that wildly, and you could take off into 0/0 and find better conditions nearby. I still doubt I would do it, physically swinging the J-bar is enough to induce spatial disorientation. But someone with electric gear certainly wouldn't have that limitation. I would want to make very certain that nearby areas were above minimums, and I think I'd have one of those approaches spring loaded ready to go. Stuff happens fast when things go south.

Then again, what do I know. I haven't a bag full of certificates or epaulettes on my shoulder. All I got is a buck twenty five and bad case of gout.

 

[jsstevens]

If you’re taking off in IMC (regardless of 0/0) you should have a plan and an approach loaded for getting on the ground ASAP. You may need it some day.

 

[redtail]

Reading this spirited debate, I couldn't help but to recall something I heard years ago, from one of my favorite CFIs (not a personal CFI), but someone I have admired and have had great respect for over the past few decades! I actually attended one of his seminars a couple of decades ago.

He taught me about my Samurai Bushido (my personal code of ethics). So I don't give a crap what another pilot thinks of me and my choices.

Thanks Rod Machado!

https://studentpilot.com/2012/06/07/samurai-airmanship-by-rod-machado/

"Bushido means “code of ethics.” The Samurai lived by such a code and many people still do. It delineates acceptable and unacceptable behaviors. It emphasizes what is valued most and prevents these values from extinguishing with time. It is a personal code of conduct, allowing individuals to survive, to thrive, to find meaning in their existence. Pilots, without such a Bushido, are unlikely to do any of these.

Over the years I’ve come across several pilots that stand out in my memory. Each had one thing in common: they conducted themselves by an aviation code of ethics. They knew what was safe to do and what was an unacceptable risk. These were aviators of strong conviction, refusing to breach their self-imposed limits and violate their personal code of conduct. When frequently spat upon by the enemy’s of safety–peer pressure, ego, pride–they followed their Bushido. In short, they were the safest of pilots."

"Good pilots live by a Bushido. Ask any aviator whose been around long enough and you’ll hear similar tales about their code. “I never make IFR takeoffs in zero-zero conditions, it’s not safe and I just don’t do it, end of story,” says one seasoned aviator. Another might say, “I never use my airplane for business trips unless I can afford to miss the meeting. If I can’t miss it, I drive or take the airlines.” I have even heard one pilot say, “If it doesn’t feel right, I don’t go! I just listen to my gut.” These are all examples of a pilot’s code of conduct."

 

[Ghery]

I did one in instrument training. While entertaining and affirming the skills necessary were there to do it, it absolutely confirmed that I would never do it in actual conditions. If one needs to get back in a hurry, I have yet to see an approach that can be done in 0/0 conditions with the type of planes we typically fly.

Bingo! I did one in instrument training, as well. Never again. Which, frankly, was probably why the CFII had me do it. On a severe clear day with him as safety pilot and a wide runway. I showed me quite clearly why this is a bad idea. Unless certain conditions are met, none of which will ever impact my flying. And, as noted by Dave, a return to the field in case of emergency will not be likely.

 

[MauleSkinner]

It’s too bad so many instructors don’t know or explain why they do this exercise, and/or so many instrument students miss the explanation.

 

[Maxnr]

Nice rambling discussion. I can say that I have done at least one (in a Mooney) that came close. A pre dawn departure from a coastal airport in Maine. It was marginal VFR with light rain. TO minimums prevailed. I had my clearance/squawk with a void time. Could not get the RW lights to come on. Winds favored a south TO. But it was a "black hole" departure, no lights for miles. There was an NDB a mile or two or three off the departure end. Dialed it in and chased the needle. No sweat. I used the 0/0 ITO training that I got in Flight school.

0/0 TOs were never meant for airplanes. 0/0 is way below T.O. minimums in most cases. You need about a half mile to get to fifty feet. If you hit anything, they will probably make you pay for it.

Therefore, only helicopters can do it. Properly done, its a vertical lift off, slight nose down, maintain heading to a safe altitude and climb out at best rate of climb (Vbroc) speed. Civilian helicopters can't do this legally for a couple of reasons. Utility Helicopters(certified under FAR part 27) are usually not equipped for IFR. They do have a Height/Velocity diagram in section 4 (performance charts) of the RFM. Sometime called the Dead Man's curve.Its not mandatory however. Civil helos certified under FAR part 29 (Transport catergory) are usually equipped for IFR, but the HV diagram is in Section 1, Limitations of the RFM. And operating outside the limitations is a no-no per FAR 91.9(a). But scroll down to para (c) and there is an exception for certain part 29 helos. About 0.0001% of the civil fleet. Yeah, you could do an ITO under those conditions , but it would likely be below minimums. You need 1/2 mile vis for an offshore TO, and thats "eyeballs out".

That leaves military helicopters. Only they can do a legal ITO in 0/0 conditions. They can regard the HV diagram as "advisory" and press on. If they are in a 100' hover doing rappelling excercises or coming out of a 300 foot high jungle clearing during monsoon season, they're legal. Its normal to do an ITO out of a real dusty parking spot.

 

[dtuuri]

The ADF tuned to the outer marker also helps on the go.

There was an NDB a mile or two or three off the departure end. Dialed it in and chased the needle. No sweat. I used the 0/0 ITO training that I got in Flight school.

Military flight school taught you this? I'm having trouble with the math. Let's pick easy numbers. Say the NDB is an LOM five miles from the end of a 6000 foot runway. That's six miles total. At 60 miles, one degree off course is one mile, or 6000 feet. Six miles, then, is one-tenth of one mile off course or 600 feet. In other words, if your ADF needle sways so much as one itsy bitsy degree from the peg you're in the pasture next to the runway with the cows. Even holding one-half a degree would put you 300 feet from the centerline. One-quarter of a degree, 150 feet to the side. An eigth of a degree, 75 feet. Still in the pucker brush. You'd need to hold the ADF needle within 1/16 of a degree to stay on the pavement, assuming you have a 150 foot wide piece of asphalt. My math isn't the best, though. What am I doing wrong? Or, maybe, you military guys are really just that G**D*** good?

 

[Maxnr]

Military flight school taught you this? I'm having trouble with the math. Let's pick easy numbers. Say the NDB is an LOM five miles from the end of a 6000 foot runway. That's six miles total. At 60 miles, one degree off course is one mile, or 6000 feet. Six miles, then, is one-tenth of one mile off course or 600 feet. In other words, if your ADF needle sways so much as one itsy bitsy degree from the peg you're in the pasture next to the runway with the cows. Even holding one-half a degree would put you 300 feet from the centerline. One-quarter of a degree, 150 feet to the side. An eigth of a degree, 75 feet. Still in the pucker brush. You'd need to hold the ADF needle within 1/16 of a degree to stay on the pavement, assuming you have a 150 foot wide piece of asphalt. My math isn't the best, though. What am I doing wrong? Or, maybe, you military guys are really just that G**D*** good?

Military flight school taught us to use all resources. Even on a (technically) vfr departure. Rain, puny landing light, no RW lights, the ADF was just back up. You bet we ex military jocks are S.H. GCA's are done with two degree heading changes. Many pilots (I met one) have landed 0/0 by CCA and had to leave the bird right there on the RW. As for myself, I have enjoyed a spotless record for 5 decades and flight time in the five digets.

 

[dtuuri]

Military flight school taught us to use all resources. Even on a (technically) vfr departure. Rain, puny landing light, no RW lights, the ADF was just back up. You bet we ex military jocks are S.H. GCA's are done with two degree heading changes. Many pilots (I met one) have landed 0/0 by CCA and had to leave the bird right there on the RW. As for myself, I have enjoyed a spotless record for 5 decades and flight time in the five digets.

As a civilian, I'd have tuned in the localizer not the NDB.

 

[Maxnr]

As a civilian, I'd have tuned in the localizer not the NDB.

Ya got the locallizer 25 freq for KIWI handy?
BTW, The RW was extended couple of hundred feet a few years later. That's when they invented GPS and canned the NDB. Actually paved over it.

 

[Maxnr]

Now you've loosened my tongue. "Black hole" approaches and departures are every bit challenging as zero-zero take offs. Because pilots really do them. Take offs under the hood are just training excercises.
Ever go into KNEW after the tower closes on an OVC, rainy night? Its claimed many. I recall one that killed a Navy pilot. Don't recall the type of Naval A/C. He intended to land on 18L. Many Naval A/C don't have VHF Nav gear. The pilot controlled lighting is on the CTAF. The CTAF is a VHF freq. Most Naval A/C don't have VHF gear, only UHF.
My 135 duties, many times required night landings at KNEW. Two pilots are a blessing. Tuning the localizer is a very good idea. If you have radar in your nose, what more could you ask for.

 

[dtuuri]

Ya got the locallizer 25 freq for KIWI handy?

You said, "The ADF tuned to the outer marker also helps on the go." An outer marker is part of an ILS so I naturally thought...

 

[dtuuri]

Ever go into KNEW after the tower closes on an OVC, rainy night? Its claimed many.

Been there in foggy weather, across the lake and parallel with a causeway, IIRC. Tower was probably open though.

 

[Velocity173]

Military flight school taught us to use all resources. Even on a (technically) vfr departure. Rain, puny landing light, no RW lights, the ADF was just back up. You bet we ex military jocks are S.H. GCA's are done with two degree heading changes. Many pilots (I met one) have landed 0/0 by CCA and had to leave the bird right there on the RW. As for myself, I have enjoyed a spotless record for 5 decades and flight time in the five digets.

Not sure what you mean by GCAs with two degree heading changes. Other than using Single Frequency Approach for military, GCAs are the same for civilians and military. You could issue a one degree turn for either one. A waste of a turn but still allowed.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Not sure what you mean by GCAs with two degree heading changes. Other than using Single Frequency Approach for military, GCAs are the same for civilians and military. You could issue a one degree turn for either one. A waste of a turn but still allowed.

I can’t even see well enough to make a two-degree heading change...I’d have to go five and come back three.

 

[Velocity173]

I can’t even see well enough to make a two-degree heading change...I’d have to go five and come back three.

The “five and come back three” is actually a technique we used in GCAs. At the time, it was considered an unwritten rule that you just don’t issue one degree turns.

Now today with digital glass and heading mode engaged? Yeah a pilot could easily fly it but on the controller end, their display isn’t accurate enough to issue it. Too many variables involved for there to be any value in a one degree turn.

 

[snglecoil]

For the record, I was not asked to do a takeoff under the hood on my checkride...not that I ever expected to. The subject did come up during the oral, however, when talking about part 91 takeoff minimums (or lack there of). The DPE said the she’d done a few 0/0 takeoffs and it was never really that big a deal. Still doesn’t really make me want to ever try it myself, but that’s just me.

 

[PPC1052]

Where I live conditions will be identical for about 50 miles.

I live in Indy. The weather here isn't much different than where you are in Columbus. Weather can vary in substantially in less than 50 miles. I once tried to take off from KEYE to go to KTYQ-- a distance of 12 miles-- to go pick up my CFII during my instrument training. My CFII reported VMC conditions at KTYQ, but I couldn't make it because of low clouds surrounding my airport, so I had to turn back. Also, compare the quality of approaches available for KEYE to KTYQ to the north, or KIND 7 miles to the south.

 

[EdFred]

I live in Indy. The weather here isn't much different than where you are in Columbus. Weather can vary in substantially in less than 50 miles. I once tried to take off from KEYE to go to KTYQ-- a distance of 12 miles-- to go pick up my CFII during my instrument training. My CFII reported VMC conditions at KTYQ, but I couldn't make it because of low clouds surrounding my airport, so I had to turn back. Also, compare the quality of approaches available for KEYE to KTYQ to the north, or KIND 7 miles to the south.

I was coming back from Louisville last year. When I got near FWA, there was a distinct line/wall of crud to the south, and CAVU to the north. Evidently no frontal systems ever pass through the Columbus, OH area. I can't count the number of times that GRR will be one thing and the airports surrounding it will be completely different, and that's only a 15-20 mile difference.

 

[PPC1052]

You'd need to hold the ADF needle within 1/16 of a degree to stay on the pavement, assuming you have a 150 foot wide piece of asphalt. My math isn't the best, though. What am I doing wrong? Or, maybe, you military guys are really just that G**D*** good?

My guess is he's looking at the DG on the ground, and using the ADF to confirm his track in the air.

 

[PPC1052]

I was coming back from Louisville last year. When I got near FWA, there was a distinct line/wall of crud to the south, and CAVU to the north. Evidently no frontal systems ever pass through the Columbus, OH area. I can't count the number of times that GRR will be one thing and the airports surrounding it will be completely different, and that's only a 15-20 mile difference.

Exactly. My first solo IFR flight in real IMC (not just flying through the occasional puff of visible moisture) I took off from Nashville and flew for about an hour in IMC conditions all the way from Nashville, TN until just about the Kentucky/Indiana border. It was solid IMC from about 1000 feet AGL up until well above the freezing levels and stayed that was for an hour until I broke out of the vertical wall of clouds into the clear blue CAVU conditions for the rest of the trip.

 

[Pugs]

In an interesting reverse of this situation. More than once at NAS Whidbey Island, usually in Sept/Oct, you could end up in a situation where you landed in clear blue on runway 25 and half-way down the runway rolled into a wall of 200' high fog so thick that even with the runways centerline lights on that was all you could see.

No one launched into it since the "wall" would move up and down the runway and occasionally cover all of it so mostly it was a case of getting in before it did that since our usual alternate was McChord and getting stuck there was a pain.

 

[FlightInsight]

I've never done this. If I ever did do a takeoff under the hood, or a night takeoff over water or unlighted terrain, it would ONLY be to show the dangers of doing so. Part 91 doesn't have takeoff minimums (unless you've accepted a SID that has minimums), but in flying what keeps you legal doesn't always keep you safe.

Without visual reference, the body interprets acceleration (like on takeoff) as a tumbling backwards sensation. This causes the pilot to want to correct a nose high pitch by moving the elevator forward, which can result in loss of climb. It's called the somatogravic illusion, and was a likely factor in a crash in February 2018 at Ocean City, Maryland, involving a Cessna 172 attempting touch and goes at night departing over open water.



If I ever did this in training, I would stress that we'd not be trying to get proficiency in doing "zero-zero" takeoffs, but in demonstrating the somatogravic illusion.

 

[TW IFR]

I’m doing a “sanity check ride” with a veteran instructor ahead of my instrument check ride next week. He told me to plan for a takeoff under the hood. I’ve heard of other instructors doing that as well, but my instructor never did one with me. Just curious what the value is? I understand that it is technically legal to do a 0/0 takeoff under part 91, but I can’t imagine ever launching in a situation where you have zero visibility with respect to your alignment on the runway. Is it just to get you on instruments asap after wheels up?

I think the transition to instruments is often a bigger deal than many new instrument pilots give it credit for. I personally prefer to wear the hood or foggles to simulate the reduced visiablity and watch the runway and then switch to instruments as you rotate. As mentioned under most situations you will at least be able to see the center line or a runway edge light or two. But it was also mentioned a situation I hadn't really thought about is that in low visiblity as you build speed you might lose these references and have to switch to instruments even before you rotate.

Brian

 

[TW IFR]

In the 1970s one of my CFII's trained me and my friend, in many under the hood takeoffs and landings. I got to the point, where my friend and I could alternate left and right seats, either talking one another onto an under the hood landing, or performing same. This routine was extremely helpful in developing keen awareness and confidence.

 

[Rgbeard]

Why did you resurrect a +2yo thread?

 

[Tools]

So there I was, navy advanced strike student, ta-4j skyhawk. Your FIRST actual flight is a BI-9 as I recall, basic instrument... the first 8 were in the sim.

you get the controls at 80kts, on deck, under the bag, you rotate at 150. Instructor gives little check lefts and check rights until you rotate.

on my instrument rating ride, still advanced strike, TA-4J, my check pilot talked me ALL the way back to the ground under the bag! Kinda cool.


“In real life, if you can’t see the runway directly in front of you....HOW in the F did you taxi into position in the first place?????”

This IS a thing. 4 of us S-3B Vikings taxied once with BAD vis “at our own risk” because tower couldn’t see us. NAS North Island. We got to the hold short in a different order than we left the line... d’oh!! As predicted, fog lifted and we flew out uneventfully, having gotten back into the right order on the runway...

 

[Velocity173]

Pilots claim 0/0 but I’ve yet to see a vid of true 0/0 takeoff or landing. Meaning, you can’t see anything outside the aircraft. Even in brown out / white out in helos, you can see about 10 ft or so but the absence of terrain detail makes it so difficult. You can always see runway markings even in the thickest fog.

 

[flyingron]

I'm a little leary of 0-0 takeoffs, but I've taken off into 300 overcast and you need to be on your game from the time you push the throttle forward. Doing the whole takeoff under the foggles sort of simulates that without you having to take your hand off the control to throw them on at 200' or whatever.

 

[Rgbeard]

I'm a little leary of 0-0 takeoffs, but I've taken off into 300 overcast and you need to be on your game from the time you push the throttle forward. Doing the whole takeoff under the foggles sort of simulates that without you having to take your hand off the control to throw them on at 200' or whatever.

I know this is laughable by the real veterans, but I've done one barely-sub-200, and two 300 overcast launches. Pucker-factor can be real.