Takeoff under the hood?

FORANE said:
Does this count?
View attachment 78959
Click to expand...
Not even close.

My first real ITO was from McGuire AFB and I was CP with a PIC who had Special Instrument Quals. He was authorized. We were all trained in ITOs in flight school and no big deal. Later, as a civilian in a 135 outfit, I was given an A/C to take an ATP ride. The examiner was a Fed from the FSDO and he was the POI for my employer. I knew him, He knew me and we both had the same roots. Needless to say, the very first task was an under the hood ITO.

I agree with all the points that have been brought out in favor of training in ITOs. This, despite the fact that you need TO minimums to do a legit departure.
 
I swear that Kritchlow and I were not coordinating on our replys. He got there while I was getting a a coffee.
 
Blindfolded is the true test of an ITO.
 
Still trying to understand the perceived value of taking off/rolling down the runway under the hood.

In real life, if you can’t see the runway directly in front of you....HOW in the F did you taxi into position in the first place?????

Ask the CFII this: are they suggesting taxiing to the runway under the hood using a taxi diagram on ForeFlight??? If so, throat punch them.

And yes, I’ve done part 91 ‘zero vis’ departures before. Never could I not see the centerline and if I couldn’t I wouldn’t have even attempted to taxi to the runway.
 
Last edited:
Fearless Tower said:
Still trying to understand the perceived value of taking off/rolling down the runway under the hood.

In real life, if you can’t see the runway directly in front of you....HOW in the F did you taxi into position in the first place?????

Ask the CFII this: are they suggesting taxiing to the runway under the hood using a taxi diagram on ForeFlight??? If so, throat punch them.

And yes, I’ve done part 91 ‘zero vis’ departures before. Never could I not see the centerline and if I couldn’t I wouldn’t have even attempted to taxi to the runway.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I’ve never seen any vids of true 0/0 takeoffs. You can always see some sort outside visual reference in fog. Pilots would never be able to fly formation in clouds if there was no outside reference at all. Now dust? That’s a whole different story.
 
In my younger, and stupid years, I performed a true 0/0 takeoff. Not 1 single inch of visibility. Zero.
I’m not proud of the circumstances now that I look back at it, but it happened.

How did I line up on the runway? Opened the little window in the C310 and peered out.
 
Follow me trucks do a good job of getting you to the active. The ADF tuned to the outer marker also helps on the go. Frankly, I won't tell the world how or why I departed in E airspace (with a clearance) with the center line barely visible. Its more common in military aviation than civilian and that's where I was taught.

Its a good skill to have. Easier than you think. Compared to, say intersection holding with only one VHF nav, 0/0 ITOs are only a fraction of the difficulty.
 
Ok I took the mock ride this evening. The instructor had me do the takeoff roll visual and drop the visor at 100’ AGL. 0/0 is an option he sometimes uses if conditions are right but we had some seriously gusty crosswinds this evening so it wasn’t even under consideration.

On a positive note, he told me he has zero concerns about my ability to pass the checkride. Hopefully by early Tuesday afternoon I’ll join the ranks of the instrument rated!
 
Maxnr said:
Its more common in military aviation than civilian and that's where I was taught.
Click to expand...
Military pilots are "expendable" to the brass in charge of training requirements. Now that you're a civilian pilot, would you do it in a civilian GA plane with just an unslaved DG and magnetic compass? On, say, a 50' wide runway? At a strange airport? Without first checking to see if the painted centerline is clearly visible throughout the accelerate-stop distance? And without back taxiing the full length to clear the runway of obstructions like deer, lost cows or grandmas driving around in the fog? No answer required, just offering some considerations. I am kind of wondering how one holds a compass heading while watching the centerline at the same time. When the paint stops unexpectedly, do you transition to runway heading on the DG or hold it wherever it is right then?
 
The hazards of a 0/0 takeoff are completely avoidable through much simpler means. I'll see if I can put this in Ed's language: :)
zerozero.001.jpeg
<It's Sunday morning, California is supposed to be getting a windstorm today, and I need to get a life...>
 
The school I chose for my instrument rating had me do T/O's under the hood regularly even though I trained with multiple instructors. The examiner always made students do it on the check ride, which was true for my check ride.
 
farangutan said:
The school I chose for my instrument rating had me do T/O's under the hood regularly even though I trained with multiple instructors. The examiner always made students do it on the check ride, which was true for my check ride.
Click to expand...

Didn't have to do one for my check ride but did one on training. I didn't find it hard, in fact, it was cool experience. No, I won't be taking off in any 0/0 days.
 
Last edited:
I agree with some others that it was a valuable learning experience. I was lucky that we did them enough that it felt routine at one point. However, I won't do it for real if I don't have to. I have trust issues with the DG in the plane I currently fly.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Still trying to understand the perceived value of taking off/rolling down the runway under the hood.

In real life, if you can’t see the runway directly in front of you....HOW in the F did you taxi into position in the first place?????

Ask the CFII this: are they suggesting taxiing to the runway under the hood using a taxi diagram on ForeFlight??? If so, throat punch them.

And yes, I’ve done part 91 ‘zero vis’ departures before. Never could I not see the centerline and if I couldn’t I wouldn’t have even attempted to taxi to the runway.
Click to expand...
Thanks!

It's a stupid pilot trick that will either
A.) some day encourage you to do it even though you shouldn't, like the Florida twin pilot "my CFI had me do this... I can do it!"
B.) prove very little point other than "yeah I should probably never try this"

And honestly, I know all the superior 500,000,000 hour airline pilots "we do 0/0 takeoffs all the time, because we are REAL MEN AND REAL PILOTS" aren't actually taking off blindfolded and realistically CAN actually see more than ZERO feet ahead of them

Why you show a PPL or IR student this is beyond me.. what's next.. overloading the plane with a rear CG to prove that it's dumb?
 
farangutan said:
I won't do it for real
Click to expand...
Of course not! Nobody takes off blindfolded. The 0/0 guys who do it professionally can actually see more than zero feet ahead of them and have tons of genuine training.. not some loser in a steam gauge 172 with a "cool" CFI staring at the DG
 
Tantalum said:
Thanks!

It's a stupid pilot trick that will either
A.) some day encourage you to do it even though you shouldn't, like the Florida twin pilot "my CFI had me do this... I can do it!"
B.) prove very little point other than "yeah I should probably never try this"

And honestly, I know all the superior 500,000,000 hour airline pilots "we do 0/0 takeoffs all the time, because we are REAL MEN AND REAL PILOTS" aren't actually taking off blindfolded and realistically CAN actually see more than ZERO feet ahead of them

Why you show a PPL or IR student this is beyond me.. what's next.. overloading the plane with a rear CG to prove that it's dumb?
Click to expand...
How many airline pilots have said they do 0/0 takeoffs? I don’t know that it’s legal for anybody in the Air Carrier world.
 
MauleSkinner said:
How many airline pilots have said they do 0/0 takeoffs? I don’t know that it’s legal for anybody in the Air Carrier world.
Click to expand...
there was an implication, this can be done by skilled people with tons of experience..
 
^if it's really never safely done or prohibited to do so then why do it at all?
 
farangutan said:
The school I chose for my instrument rating had me do T/O's under the hood regularly even though I trained with multiple instructors. The examiner always made students do it on the check ride, which was true for my check ride.
Click to expand...
The CFI who tries that will be invited to depart my aircraft (don't worry, I'll stop it first) never to return. The DPE who tries that will receive similar treatment, except he or she will also refund my fee after either my request or my suit in small claims court. He or she will also have to deal with the report I make to the local FSDO about their antics. If a school tried this nonsense I would act similarly, and would try and recover any money I had invested with them with the threat of telling the local media they were teaching hazardous behaviors. That's before I report them to the local FSDO.

This stuff is dangerous as it is. We don't need to add the stupid factor intentionally.
 
steingar said:
The CFI who tries that will be invited to depart my aircraft (don't worry, I'll stop it first) never to return. The DPE who tries that will receive similar treatment, except he or she will also refund my fee after either my request or my suit in small claims court. He or she will also have to deal with the report I make to the local FSDO about their antics. If a school tried this nonsense I would act similarly, and would try and recover any money I had invested with them with the threat of telling the local media they were teaching hazardous behaviors. That's before I report them to the local FSDO.

This stuff is dangerous as it is. We don't need to add the stupid factor intentionally.
Click to expand...
If the examiner requires it, he should be reported because he’s requiring something not in the ACS.
 
steingar said:
The CFI who tries that will be invited to depart my aircraft (don't worry, I'll stop it first) never to return. The DPE who tries that will receive similar treatment, except he or she will also refund my fee after either my request or my suit in small claims court. He or she will also have to deal with the report I make to the local FSDO about their antics. If a school tried this nonsense I would act similarly, and would try and recover any money I had invested with them with the threat of telling the local media they were teaching hazardous behaviors. That's before I report them to the local FSDO.

This stuff is dangerous as it is. We don't need to add the stupid factor intentionally.
Click to expand...

So given your vast experience in instrument flying, as well as flight instruction, how would you teach a low visibility take off?

A new instrument pilot prepares to depart an airport, and the visibility at the time is just at approach minimums. He's legal to depart (part 91) and he has approach minimums (ILS) to get back in. As he lines up and accelerates down the runway, visibility begins dropping, and with the speed increase only causes forward visibility to drop even more.

As soon as he rotates, for all practical purposes, he's IMC and on the gauges. So, is this the time to learn this? Or perhaps in his training had he been exposed to very low visibility take offs he would be prepared.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I think the 500rvr is the minimum anybody is going to get authorized for takeoff.
Click to expand...

And those 500RVR take offs are trained and tested. That's the key, training. For the part 91 pilots, there's no harm in exposing them to very low visibility take offs to let them see the workload and increased scan. Better to see and experience it in training before it happens in real time.
 
Doc Holliday said:
And those 500RVR take offs are trained and tested. That's the key, training. For the part 91 pilots, there's no harm in exposing them to very low visibility take offs to let them see the workload and increased scan. Better to see and experience it in training before it happens in real time.
Click to expand...
To be honest, as I’m sure (pretty sure) you do the same thing, when we do 500 TO’s we are looking outside, as you can still see a couple of stripes. True 0/0 would require eyes inside.
 
Kritchlow said:
To be honest, as I’m sure (pretty sure) you do the same thing, when we do 500 TO’s we are looking outside, as you can still see a couple of stripes. True 0/0 would require eyes inside.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree. Even wearing foggles or a hood in a small GA airplane will reduce the visibility, not to a "0/0" but enough to only see ahead slightly and perhaps some side visual clues. That's about as close as someone will get in a GA airplane
 
Doc Holliday said:
...he has approach minimums (ILS) to get back in. As he lines up and accelerates down the runway, visibility begins dropping...
Click to expand...
You're describing a situation where the clouds drop from (say) 250 feet to 0 feet, and visibility from (say) 1 mile to 0 feet, *during* the takeoff roll, in the space of 10 seconds, with no opportunity to just abort the takeoff? That's some crazy weather! Has this actually happened to you?

To me, it seems like training people for what to do if a camel attacks from the back seat. Sure, if a camel ever attacks, you'd want to have had the training. But it makes more sense to just not load camels into the back seat.


Edit: camels in the back are also bad for CG and might make a spin unrecoverable... :). But then we get into discussing spin training, which is the exact same debate. "Train for everything" vs. "Train for prevention".

Edit2: Get one of those styles of foggles that can easily "flip up" or "flip down", so that you can have your student quickly flip at 100 feet. Or 50 feet, or however low you like. No argument from me there. It's doing the *roll itself* under the hood that I find baffling.
 
Last edited:
kath said:
You're describing a situation where the clouds drop from (say) 250 feet to 0 feet, and visibility from (say) 1 mile to 0 feet, *during* the takeoff roll, in the space of 10 seconds, with no opportunity to just abort the takeoff? That's some crazy weather! Has this actually happened to you?

To me, it seems like training people for what to do if a camel attacks from the back seat. Sure, if a camel ever attacks, you'd want to have had the training. But it makes more sense to just not load camels into the back seat.
Click to expand...

I've been on approaches where I had landing RVR reported at the marker and at DH vis has gone down below mins resulting in a GA. I've had departure weather at the ramp and by the time I got to the runway end the fog rolled across dropping the vis below departure mins.

I've started take offs with low visibility only to lose runway visibility due to heavy precip moving across the field. In this instance trying to stop would have been worse than just continuing the takeoff.

I've also been on airports where only every third or fourth plane was making it in when minimums were going up and down between arrivals. So yes, I've seen rapidly changing weather.
 
Doc Holliday said:
So given your vast experience in instrument flying, as well as flight instruction, how would you teach a low visibility take off?

A new instrument pilot prepares to depart an airport, and the visibility at the time is just at approach minimums. He's legal to depart (part 91) and he has approach minimums (ILS) to get back in. As he lines up and accelerates down the runway, visibility begins dropping, and with the speed increase only causes forward visibility to drop even more.

As soon as he rotates, for all practical purposes, he's IMC and on the gauges. So, is this the time to learn this? Or perhaps in his training had he been exposed to very low visibility take offs he would be prepared.
Click to expand...

The key is to have sufficiently good judgement not to do it in the first place. Truly exceptional pilots use their exceptional judgement to avoid having to use their exceptional abilities. I would look out the window, see it was too low, and fly another day. Apparently you haven’t mastered that trick.
 
steingar said:
The key is to have sufficiently good judgement not to do it in the first place. Truly exceptional pilots use their exceptional judgement to avoid having to use their exceptional abilities. I would look out the window, see it was too low, and fly another day. Apparently you haven’t mastered that trick.
Click to expand...
How low is “too low”, and how do you train a foot above that?
 
steingar said:
The key is to have sufficiently good judgement not to do it in the first place. Truly exceptional pilots use their exceptional judgement to avoid having to use their exceptional abilities. I would look out the window, see it was too low, and fly another day. Apparently you haven’t mastered that trick.
Click to expand...

Actually I have a few things you don't have, such as the certificates and more importantly, the training and experience. Some folks, such as yourself, should refrain from flying in anything except CAVU conditions.

If this type of operations scare you, then please, don't pursue the rating.
 
Can we (as a group) at least stipulate that:
a) everyone is allowed to set personal minimums, and
b) the statement above applies to instrument pilots, instrument students, and CFII's too, and
c) as a corollary, people should not criticize the personal minimums of others for being too conservative?
Thank you.
Let the debate continue.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Actually I have a few things you don't have, such as the certificates and more importantly, the training and experience. Some folks, such as yourself, should refrain from flying in anything except CAVU conditions.

If this type of operations scare you, then please, don't pursue the rating.
Click to expand...
No certificate authorizes you to do a fool thing. There's reason the pros in the jets can't do it. Been a bunch of crashes lately of high time guys with lots of certificates. That paper won't keep you out of dutch. No doubt you're a better stick than me, but if my lack of paper keeps me out of harrowing situations, I'm good with it.

MauleSkinner said:
How low is “too low”, and how do you train a foot above that?
Click to expand...
Too low is below the published minimums for the approaches at that airport, i.e. "if something goes wrong can I get back?"
 
steingar said:
There's reason the pros in the jets can't do it.
Click to expand...
Can you define what “it” is? I suspect that in your enthusiasm for presenting your lack of experience and forethought as universal good judgement you’re talking about something entirely different than the people you’re arguing with.
 
MauleSkinner said:
What if there are other emergency options?
Click to expand...
Like what? I suppose Cirrus pilots can pull the parachute if things do south. What other emergency options are you envisioning that don't involve shooting an approach to get back down?

MauleSkinner said:
Can you define what “it” is? I suspect that in your enthusiasm for presenting your lack of experience and forethought as universal good judgement you’re talking about something entirely different than the people you’re arguing with.
Click to expand...
As I understand it, pilots of commercial passenger carrying aircraft aren't allowed to take off into 0/0 conditions. I would be happily corrected if I am mistaken.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top