Takeoff Turns (How soon)

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Got into a conversation with a pilot friend of mine and this came up. He said it's in the AIM that no turns should be made before 400' AGL or the end of the runway...whichever came LATER.

I said I'd never heard that before. Every company I've flown for had some altitude restriction, usually the 400'. But I've never heard of 'no turns before the end of the runway'. That would seem onerous at airports with super long runways when they clear you to takeoff and give a turn I think they want you to turn...now...not...wait...because that turn was issued for a reason. Probably a faster plane behind you (not always).

Anyway, I asked for a refrence and he said the AIM. I had that on my iPad so I looked and couldn't find it. Then he said it might not be there anymore but he was sure it used to be.

Anyone ever heard of this before? If it's there then I'm absolutely positive I've never turned before the end of the runway. ;)
 
I have been told to turn early.
I never have a set time. I generally retract flaps and then start my turn (Never at the same time! :) )
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have been told to turn early.
I never have a set time. I generally retract flaps and then start my turn (Never at the same time! :) )
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Like the new Avatar! (Door open sorta spoils the effect though...)
 
That is the criteria used for establishing obstacle departure procedure (section 5-2-8). I know of no such requirement for VFR. Even IFR, ODPs are only "recommended".
 
dmspilot said:
That is the criteria used for establishing obstacle departure procedure (section 5-2-8). I know of no such requirement for VFR. Even IFR, ODPs are only "recommended".
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ahhhhh....that's a clue! Thanks, I'll research. That might be the confusion.
 
Captain said:
Got into a conversation with a pilot friend of mine and this came up. He said it's in the AIM that no turns should be made before 400' AGL or the end of the runway...whichever came LATER.

I said I'd never heard that before. Every company I've flown for had some altitude restriction, usually the 400'. But I've never heard of 'no turns before the end of the runway'. That would seem onerous at airports with super long runways when they clear you to takeoff and give a turn I think they want you to turn...now...not...wait...because that turn was issued for a reason. Probably a faster plane behind you (not always).

Anyway, I asked for a refrence and he said the AIM. I had that on my iPad so I looked and couldn't find it. Then he said it might not be there anymore but he was sure it used to be.

Anyone ever heard of this before? If it's there then I'm absolutely positive I've never turned before the end of the runway. ;)
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I've never seen it as regulatory, I've had a CFI tell me that on a BFR and I asked him to give a citation and he couldn't. Unless tower instructs me their wise, I'm turning as soon as I clear the ground.
 
I always was taught no lower than 400ft, in compliance with noise abatement, and general politeness. For example, departing 23 at FDK, I turn crosswind/departing at around 600agl, which puts me over a quarry and farm fields. If I turned at 400agl, I would be flying over houses. Keeps the noise whiners at bay.

Of course, this is in a 150. It is not physically possible to reach 400agl at any point which could be considered "too soon"
 
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I have always been under the impression that at a towered airport they expect you not to turn until the end of the runway unless otherwise authorized.

Departing KTYS in my Sky Arrow, I will always ask for an early turnout if I need one.

Let me see if I can find a source.

Edited to add:

AIM (under operations at a towered airport):

"6. Departure leg. The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude."

(I see Tim already referenced this - it is 4.3.2)
 
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Whenever I feel it's safe.

Might be under 400' might be over 400'.

Much of flying isn't and should be, paint by numbers.
 
James331 said:
Whenever I feel it's safe.

Might be under 400' might be over 400'.

Much of flying isn't and should be, paint by numbers.
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:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

I turn so I skim the tops of the trees off. It helps to keep the field manicured.

:rolleyes2:
 
I think your pal is referring to the discussion on IFR departure procedures in AIM Section 5-2-8, which is an issue only for obstruction clearance. Following the "standard" DP in that section (cross the departure end at/above 35 AGL, and then climb runway heading at 200 ft/nm to 400 above the DER before turning, then turn on course and continue climbing at 200 ft/nm to the MEA) provides guaranteed obstruction clearance at any airport with published IFR procedures (unless the triangle-T tells you otherwise). This is only for IFR departure obstruction clearance, and has no applicability to VFR operations.

For VFR operations, AIM Section 4-3-3 recommends climbing to 300 below TPA before turning crosswind if you're staying in the pattern. If departing the traffic pattern, that section of the AIM recommends you continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude.
 
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Ron is right.

4.3.3 is the recommendation I recall for all traffic patterns:

"4. Continue straight ahead until beyond departure end of runway."

Not regulatory, but it is the recommended and expected behavior.

I think most towers would like to know if you want a turn before the runway end.
 
With permission from the tower.. I am turning at 10AGL and 100 feet down the runway... and heading east toward my target /irrigation ditches... I only do it when there is no one in the pattern and no one is taxing out...
 
I know our tower guys would like you to not turn before the end of the runway. Last time I was flying Young Eagles I turned early and got a polite reminder to let him know next time I planned to do that. :D
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
I always was taught no lower than 400ft, in compliance with noise abatement, and general politeness. For example, departing 23 at FDK, I turn crosswind/departing at around 600agl, which puts me over a quarry and farm fields. If I turned at 400agl, I would be flying over houses. Keeps the noise whiners at bay.

Of course, this is in a 150. It is not physically possible to reach 400agl at any point which could be considered "too soon"
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I normally do 500 just out of habit for obstacle clearance, even though it's still pretty far off chance I would hit anything even at 300ft. But never for noise abatement. EFFF noise abatement. If some clown moves near an airport then complains about the noise. Screw them.
 
TommyG said:
I normally do 500 just out of habit for obstacle clearance, even though it's still pretty far off chance I would hit anything even at 300ft. But never for noise abatement. EFFF noise abatement. If some clown moves near an airport then complains about the noise. Screw them.
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I used to feel that way too. Those exact words have been uttered by yours truly. But then I decided it's a losing battle. I'll fight to the end over stupid stuff on this very forum but when it comes to noise even I have figured out it's a no win situation. Stupid? Yes. Win'able? Not a chance.

Although I did recently screw over SMO noise office. That felt nice. They gave my company a $2,000 noise violation fine. I was sitting in the CPO office when the letter came in and I said screw them. Just say there was an engine issue so the crew added full power. The CP said they could figure it out on a lack of a write up. So I said, "fine...birds. They abandoned noise abatement for birds. Prove they didn't"

Well, we just got word SMO is dropping the violation due to safety. Screw those Nazi's....no offense to Nazi's.

BTW, we never exceeded the noise dBl level. But they use a 'corrected' value that compensates noise with duration to achieve a new 'magical number' and that's the value we busted. I sure wish pilots had access to some measurement of noise...but we don't so we end up getting violated over something we have very little control over. Stupid.

Have I mentioned 'screw SMO?'
 
I used to fly the dojet. We'd be at 5,000' if we waited til the end of the runway to turn.


As soon as speed and altitude (or the FOM/AFM) permit. Usually 400' for me now. 400' isn't all that high when your wingspan is 200' tho...
 
Rex Kramer said:
I used to fly the dojet. We'd be at 5,000' if we waited til the end of the runway to turn.


As soon as speed and altitude (or the FOM/AFM) permit. Usually 400' for me now. 400' isn't all that high when your wingspan is 200' tho...
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Twice as high as needed tho...

Who'd ya fly the DorkJet for?
 
Of course, not regulatory, but AC 90-66A states:

"i. When departing the traffic pattern, airplanes
should continue straight out or exit with a 45-degree
left turn (right turn for right traffic pattern) beyond
the departure end of the runway after reaching
pattern altitude. Pilots need to be aware of any
traffic entering the traffic pattern prior to commencing
a turn. "

The context of that is at an uncontrolled field.
 
At nontowered airports, or any airport when staying in the pattern, I never turn below TPA minus 300', and don't see any reason to turn lower. Towered airport with "fly heading XXX", I tell students they can turn when they won't hit or buzz any buildings or other obstacles.
 
My home field tower frequently tells us to turn prior to the end of the runway in order to accommodate opposite direction practice approaches.

I would say if you scrape your wingtip, you probably turned too early.
 
Captain said:
Got into a conversation with a pilot friend of mine and this came up. He said it's in the AIM that no turns should be made before 400' AGL or the end of the runway...whichever came LATER.
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My CFI, a retired controller, taught me this one during initial PP training. I still use it as a guide.
 
400'AGL is a good rule of thumb.....however, I'm turning early only if my engine out spot is better before I climb to 800' AGL......that 800' AGL allows me an option to return to the runway which I came.

BTW.....I'm probably 1,500'AGL by the time I'm over that quary at FDK. ;-)
 
FastEddieB said:
I have always been under the impression that at a towered airport they expect you not to turn until the end of the runway unless otherwise authorized.
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I do the same thing, but more as a guideline. I never thought there was a regulation per se.
 
rbridges said:
I do the same thing, but more as a guideline. I never thought there was a regulation per se.
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I don't know of any regulation.

But as an example...

...using RWY5R at KTYS in my Sky Arrow, I can be at 500' and ready to turn well before midfield. This would put my turn over the terminal buildings. Not a concern, but I really do think that early turn would catch the tower controllers by surprise, and perhaps interfere with their sequencing of other traffic in the pattern. Hence, a call of "Knoxville Tower, 467SA requesting early turnout southeast bound". It rarely comes up, since they usually assign runway heading until contacting departure, but it does come up.

Anyway, I learned to fly at Opa Locka, FL, with really long runways. I was taught, and went on to teach, to always request an early turnout from the tower if one was desired, and we always did. And it was not unusual to hear back "Maintain runway heading reference a Cessna entering downwind, I'll call your crosswind."

It is also my habit to generally wait for the runway end at nontowered airports as well, as outlined in the AIM, unless there's a good reason to turn earlier. Again, an early turn may be unexpected and put your path perpendicular to arriving traffic, and some combination of high- and low-wing and poor radio use could result in a collision hazard that would not otherwise exist.

It's speculation, but it seems the recent midair at the flyin may have had a "crosswind departure" as a contributing factor. That's exactly the kind of event that consistently using recommended procedures may avoid.
 
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Eddie, not to mention an early turn might put you nose-to-nose with an approaching aircraft on a crossing runway. When I was based at SGF an early turn guaranteed you a thorough a$$ eating because of just this.

I did it...

ONCE.
 
Captain said:
Ah...yes, That's what I was thinking. Land on your feet?
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Yeah not bad. Left a couple months before the shutdown so I dodged that bullet. Place I'm at now is pretty good, but it definitely isn't what we had before. Just more of a number now.
 
Get light in a Maule and you can be 500 above TPA and still be over the runway at some airports. :-)
 
rwellner98 said:
Get light in a Maule and you can be 500 above TPA and still be over the runway at some airports. :-)
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Agreed....

With a very strong wind blowing down the runway, my record so far is getting to 9100 msl while starting from a dead stop 6500 feet earlier and at 6450 msl...

To put it in perspective.... I actually clear the Delta airspace upper shelf before the far fence line on a straight out departure... YMMV..;)
 
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Interesting question! I was once scolded for turning early when leaving from a towered field. The tower controller told me I needed to turn ONLY once beyond the far end of the runway and explained that there could be helicopter operations and that they (controllers) are assuming this behavior when coordinating fixed and rotorwing departures/arrivals. Seemed logical to me. So ever since then I wait until I'm over the far end then turn.
 
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