Taiwan crash pilots shut down wrong engine

just want to mention . . . . that the pilots were 'praised' for missing the apartment buildings - given this new information the phrase: "never put yourself in a position where your incredible skill is needed to save your ass when merely paying attention beforehand would prevent it' comes to mind.
 
Sure, but we thought Sully did the same thing and he didn't.
 
Rarely is there ANY reason to get all "fast hands" and yank engines offline.

I hope that isn't the case, but patience is not a skill many pilots are good at. Everyone wants to fix stuff immediatly.
 
n20junkie said:
Rarely is there ANY reason to get all "fast hands" and yank engines offline.

I hope that isn't the case, but patience is not a skill many pilots are good at. Everyone wants to fix stuff immediatly.
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Sad thing is that if you read the detailed release, it was more than just fast hands. There had to be absolutely no communication between the two pilots.

The left engine failed and went into autofeather. At that point, they pulled back the right throttle and THEN secured the right fuel shutoff. Unbelievable.]

Then to make matters worse, they were screwing around trying to restart the engine 15 seconds before impact.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Sad thing is that if you read the detailed release, it was more than just fast hands. There had to be absolutely no communication between the two pilots.

The left engine failed and went into autofeather. At that point, they pulled back the right throttle and THEN secured the right fuel shutoff. Unbelievable.]

Then to make matters worse, they were screwing around trying to restart the engine 15 seconds before impact.
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Again, there is a reason other countries stay away from Taiwanese pilot licenses.

Training is a joke, if even that. Like most Asian carriers, they do everything by rote. The entire check ride is memorized and done down to the letter. Except one problem, they don't understand why they are doing it, much less any system knowledge. CRM is non existent.

But I guarantee they knew how to program the FMS. :nonod:
 
n20junkie said:
Rarely is there ANY reason to get all "fast hands" and yank engines offline.

I hope that isn't the case, but patience is not a skill many pilots are good at. Everyone wants to fix stuff immediatly.
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I don't see where he had any great deal of time to study the situation.
 
JOhnH said:
I don't see where he had any great deal of time to study the situation.
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They were above 1000' AGL and the auto-feather did its job. They could have done NOTHING but simply turn around and join the downwind to land and they would have been just fine.

There was no rush.
 
comanchepilot said:
just want to mention . . . . that the pilots were 'praised' for missing the apartment buildings - given this new information the phrase: "never put yourself in a position where your incredible skill is needed to save your ass when merely paying attention beforehand would prevent it' comes to mind.
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And now I have a new tag line...
 
Fearless Tower said:
They were above 1000' AGL and the auto-feather did its job. They could have done NOTHING but simply turn around and join the downwind to land and they would have been just fine.

There was no rush.
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Exactly! With auto-feather, you just step on the appropriate rudder, lower the nose slightly to maintain blue line, set rudder trim and climb until you have altitude to make the turn to the airport! It's not that complicated, it's not always easy, but you don't have to do anything in a hurry if the auto feather is working, even in a piston twin, you should take a couple seconds to identify, verify and then slowly pull the prop into feather.
 
comanchepilot said:
just want to mention . . . . that the pilots were 'praised' for missing the apartment buildings - given this new information the phrase: "never put yourself in a position where your incredible skill is needed to save your ass when merely paying attention beforehand would prevent it' comes to mind.
Click to expand...

All they had to do was nothing, just keep flying the plane back around to the airport and land again. The could have done that by not touching a damned thing except gear and flaps on final.:dunno: It kinda looks like the right engine which they had left alone tried to relight automatically just before they crashed.

Autonomous airplanes are in the future.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
Sad thing is that if you read the detailed release, it was more than just fast hands. There had to be absolutely no communication between the two pilots.

The left engine failed and went into autofeather. At that point, they pulled back the right throttle and THEN secured the right fuel shutoff. Unbelievable.]

Then to make matters worse, they were screwing around trying to restart the engine 15 seconds before impact.
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FT, you have it backwards. The #2 (right) engine failed. The aircraft continued to climb as the autofeather activated. The automatic systems also closed the #1 bleed air valve to maximize power.

When the crew shut off fuel to #1, it was game over. The altitude started down exactly at that moment. I posted the FDR traces in the FF forum.
 
Fearless Tower said:
They were above 1000' AGL and the auto-feather did its job. They could have done NOTHING but simply turn around and join the downwind to land and they would have been just fine.

There was no rush.
Click to expand...

Exactly... training training
 
3393RP said:
FT, you have it backwards. The #2 (right) engine failed. The aircraft continued to climb as the autofeather activated. The automatic systems also closed the #1 bleed air valve to maximize power.

When the crew shut off fuel to #1, it was game over. The altitude started down exactly at that moment. I posted the FDR traces in the FF forum.
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Yes, you are correct....got my port/starboard mixed up.
 
flyingmoose said:
Exactly... training training
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Here is training in Asia in a nutshell:

Instructors are "Gods walking among us". Instructor positions are given out not based upon an ability to teach, but as "status". Teaching has nothing to do with being an Instructor.

Instructors (being Gods) can never be questioned, period. Since there is no knowledge required, they are free to make up whatever they feel the manual should say. This applies to procedures as well.

Sim sessions are "Load them up till they break". No syllabus is followed, no standards are kept. More emphasis is put on FMS use. They pride themselves on how fast and efficient they can manipulate the MCDU.

Systems knowledge is nil. Since the Instructors don't understand the systems, they don't bother to teach them. Systems training consist of "Here's the test, and here are the answers", "please fill out and turn in". Everyone scores a 100, which further shows how "superior" they are.

Check rides are well rehearsed, down to every last item. Memorize the check ride and the pilot will pass.

Line training is all about praising the Instructor, and again, never question him. As long as the pilot is subservient, he will pass.

This is why they can't handle anything that is outside the realm of what they have been taught or memorized. It's literally "the blind leading the blind".

In Taiwan (and several other SE Asian countries) a pilot flying in the military that's only flown single engine aircraft will get out, go to an airline, get in a simulator (Airbus, ATR) get his type and go fly. No multi engine license, no multi engine training (other that the OEI in the sim). Most of these military types have never flown in IMC or night. No real weather knowledge either.
 
Just playing devil's advocate here, but there is certainly a situation where you can not just add power on the good engine and fly away. That's when you're below Vmca or close to it. In that case retarding the good one, pitching over until you're above it is your only option. If it failed at 1 min after takeoff, depending on departure procedure (might be a steep one mandated, noise abatement, whatever), then it's entirely possible he could have been below Vmca. I don't think this is the case and it looks like he screwed up, but just saying.

I remember when they crucified captain Peter Burkhill after the 777 crash of BA Flight 38 at Heathrow. He got fired and was vilified by fellow pilots and experts all over. In the end he was completely exonerated by AAIB report and probably saved all those people lives by bleeding off flaps when the engines weren't responding. Today he's reinstated at BA as a captain.

Again, probably not the case in this ATR crash, but only a report will tell if there was a reason for the shutdown or how bad they screwed up.
 
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stratobee said:
Just playing devil's advocate here, but there is certainly a situation where you can not just add power on the good engine and fly away. That's when you're below Vmca or close to it. In that case retarding the good one, pitching over until you're above it is your only option. If it failed at 1 min after takeoff, depending on departure procedure (might be a steep one mandated, noise abatement, whatever), then it's entirely possible he could have been below Vmca. I don't think this is the case and it looks like he screwed up, but just saying.
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True, but what airplanes (other than unique warbirds like the B-25, P-38...etc) do you even take off below VMC.

Do you lift off in the Aerostar below VMC?
 
No, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be on it or below at some point during his departure after takeoff. Or if he was slow recognizing the autofeather. Unlikely, but possible. All I'm saying is we can be armchair experts all day, but until report is out, we don't know.

On the old Commander there was a full flap, full power stall speed published (never seen that before). As I recall it it was an almost surreal 39kts. That's 26kts below Vmca.
 
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stratobee said:
Just playing devil's advocate here, but there is certainly a situation where you can not just add power on the good engine and fly away. That's when you're below Vmca or close to it. In that case retarding the good one, pitching over until you're above it is your only option. If it failed at 1 min after takeoff, depending on departure procedure (might be a steep one mandated, noise abatement, whatever), then it's entirely possible he could have been below Vmca. I don't think this is the case and it looks like he screwed up, but just saying.

I remember when they crucified captain Peter Burkhill after the 777 crash of BA Flight 38 at Heathrow. He got fired and was vilified by fellow pilots and experts all over. In the end he was completely exonerated by AAIB report and probably saved all those people lives by bleeding off flaps when the engines weren't responding. Today he's reinstated at BA as a captain.

Again, probably not the case in this ATR crash, but only a report will tell if there was a reason for the shutdown or how bad they screwed up.
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At no time in an aircrafts's procedure is it ever near or below Vmc. Rotation occurs above it and accelerates from there. Vyse is always a speed well above Vmc and the plane shouldn't be slower until on final with runway made.

Flaps bleeding to extend a glide in trade for a hard landing is a completely different issue and is a valid technique when required.

Shutting down the second engine after the first fails on takeoff is not something I would consider ever presented in anything in the 121 syllabus. It's something you have to consider with <200hp twins, but once you get beyond that, as long as you watch your loading, you'll fly out on one under most conditions. At 1000' even a Lancer could make it to the runway on one.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
Here is training in Asia in a nutshell:

Instructors are "Gods walking among us". Instructor positions are given out not based upon an ability to teach, but as "status". Teaching has nothing to do with being an Instructor.

Instructors (being Gods) can never be questioned, period. Since there is no knowledge required, they are free to make up whatever they feel the manual should say. This applies to procedures as well.

Sim sessions are "Load them up till they break". No syllabus is followed, no standards are kept. More emphasis is put on FMS use. They pride themselves on how fast and efficient they can manipulate the MCDU.

Systems knowledge is nil. Since the Instructors don't understand the systems, they don't bother to teach them. Systems training consist of "Here's the test, and here are the answers", "please fill out and turn in". Everyone scores a 100, which further shows how "superior" they are.

Check rides are well rehearsed, down to every last item. Memorize the check ride and the pilot will pass.

Line training is all about praising the Instructor, and again, never question him. As long as the pilot is subservient, he will pass.

This is why they can't handle anything that is outside the realm of what they have been taught or memorized. It's literally "the blind leading the blind".

In Taiwan (and several other SE Asian countries) a pilot flying in the military that's only flown single engine aircraft will get out, go to an airline, get in a simulator (Airbus, ATR) get his type and go fly. No multi engine license, no multi engine training (other that the OEI in the sim). Most of these military types have never flown in IMC or night. No real weather knowledge either.
Click to expand...

My dad suggested I go over to SE Asia to get my ratings and hours. Kind of glad I didn't. I had no idea it was that bad :hairraise:
 
Fearless Tower said:
They were above 1000' AGL and the auto-feather did its job. They could have done NOTHING but simply turn around and join the downwind to land and they would have been just fine.

There was no rush.
Click to expand...

Exactly......
 
overdrive148 said:
My dad suggested I go over to SE Asia to get my ratings and hours. Kind of glad I didn't. I had no idea it was that bad :hairraise:
Click to expand...

Unless they are military, they mostly come here to get ratings an hours, it's the cheapest place on the planet to do it.
 
Henning said:
Unless they are military, they mostly come here to get ratings an hours, it's the cheapest place on the planet to do it.
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I think he is referring to some of the PFT gigs that take your money and send you overseas to sit in the right seat.
 
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