Tailwheel time

[Aztec Driver]

Well, I finally went and flew the Champ at Smoketown. That was a lot more fun than I thought it would be. Somehow, amidst all of the ratings and endorsements, I forgot what it was like to just fly for the fun of flying. I always wanted to get there fast and through whatever weather I needed to. Flying low and slow in clear weather is a real pleasure.

The instructor said (and I agreed with him) that the time couldn't be counted as PIC time because I don't have the endorsement. He also said that other people might say that I can log it as such. In thinking about it, though, I wondered about the "sole manipulator" clause. Although I would have to split it because some of the time he flew it to show me maneuvers. I don't need the PIC time, but was just curious.

 

[gibbons]

I believe you can log the time you were sole manipulator as PIC time, even though you don't have the tailwheel endorsement.

From the AOPA site:
Let's say you want to get an endorsement to fly tailwheel airplanes or high performance aircraft. If you are already rated for that aircraft, you may log PIC time for all instruction time that you are sole manipulator of the controls. To illustrate, if you have private pilot certificate, airplane single engine land, and you wish to receive instruction for a tailwheel endorsement in a single engine, tailwheel aircraft, you may log the instruction time in which you are sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time.

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/pic.html

BruceAir pointed this out in another thread.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Well, I finally went and flew the Champ at Smoketown. ...The instructor said (and I agreed with him) that the time couldn't be counted as PIC time because I don't have the endorsement.

That would make it two equally mistaken people. BTW, I pray the CFI wasn't Terry or Matt, but given the aircraft involved I fear it was?

The applicable FARs:

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person--
(i)Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated


Furthermore, "rated" means you hold a "rating" which is defined:

§ 1.1 General definitions.

Rating means a statement that, as a part of a certificate, sets forth special conditions, privileges, or limitations.


IOW, you are rated (category & class) in the aircraft and furthermore the endorsement you lack is not part of your certificate, it is part of your training records (logbook).

 

[Ken Ibold]

Somehow, amidst all of the ratings and endorsements, I forgot what it was like to just fly for the fun of flying.

I was in the same boat, flew a taildragger, sold my other airplane and bought a Citabria. Totally derailed my aviation track up to that point.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

The instructor said (and I agreed with him) that the time couldn't be counted as PIC time because I don't have the endorsement.

See Ed's post. He is absolutely correct and gives references. There are also supporting rulings in the form of the Part 61 FAQ file. (Sorry, Ed. )

He also said that other people might say that I can log it as such.

Other people are correct.

In thinking about it, though, I wondered about the "sole manipulator" clause.

And that "wonder" would have been enough to derail the instructor, although it is difficult at times convincing them just what "...for which the pilot is rated." actually means.

Someone needs to educate these so called instructors. (Although I should be careful when I throw stones in a glass house. )

 

[Ed Guthrie]

There are also supporting rulings in the form of the Part 61 FAQ file.

IMO, your references are supporting ASF policy statement(s) rather than "rulings". Rulings implies legal interpretation stature, of which AFS has none.

(Sorry, Ed. )

No need to apologize, and certainly no need if you had written something akin to "published AFS policy" versus "ruling". ;-)

 

[Aztec Driver]

That would make it two equally mistaken people. BTW, I pray the CFI wasn't Terry or Matt, but given the aircraft involved I fear it was?

The applicable FARs:

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person--
(i)Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated


Furthermore, "rated" means you hold a "rating" which is defined:

§ 1.1 General definitions.

Rating means a statement that, as a part of a certificate, sets forth special conditions, privileges, or limitations.


IOW, you are rated (category & class) in the aircraft and furthermore the endorsement you lack is not part of your certificate, it is part of your training records (logbook).

Thanks Ed, I figured that out as well. But thanks for pointing it out to me.
It wasn't Terry or Matt, so I'll leave the identity a secret for now, until I talk to him. Not that it really matters at all.

 

[grattonja]

Glad to see you finally got into that old Champ. It is a heck of a lot of fun, isn't it? I am going to try to take my wife up to Butter Valley on Friday in it, weather permitting. I have been exploring all the grass strips in the area, which I had never flown into due to Aerotech's rental rules.

I really love flying that old fabric bird. Excellent pattern work trainer. Way harder to land well than the tricycle gear birds.

Jim G

 

[Aztec Driver]

Glad to see you finally got into that old Champ. It is a heck of a lot of fun, isn't it? I am going to try to take my wife up to Butter Valley on Friday in it, weather permitting. I have been exploring all the grass strips in the area, which I had never flown into due to Aerotech's rental rules.

I really love flying that old fabric bird. Excellent pattern work trainer. Way harder to land well than the tricycle gear birds.

Jim G

Yes it is a lot of fun, albeit loud. I hope to get my wife in it, but I don't know. She's becoming less of a fan of flying the more I do. It is definitely a challenge. You really have to be quick and concise with the rudder inputs.

I went to some grass strips in my training, and didn't think they minded if you took one of the rentals to a grass strip. I know the rules state otherwise, but they never said anything when I told them I wanted to take a skyhawk to a few. I never did, unfortunately, but I wanted to. I took the Aztec to one in Maryland, and it was great. That plane did well on grass.

 

[Licketysplit]

I really like the champ. I have a hundred or so hours in an 85hp. I like the fact that you solo from the front seat of a champ. Cub's are a load of fun too but you just got to get use to flying it from the back when solo. Both of these bird's will teach you a lot about flying. I was offered a fine champ for $5000 back in 1986. That same airplane is for sale at $29 right now and it's the same today as it was in 86. Hind sight #@*^&@!!.