Taildragger to Biplane - thoughts about transition from nosewheel

jbrinker

jbrinker

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jbrinker
I'm nearing check ride for my PPL - all training so far in a Cherokee 140/160 (and a few hours in a C172). I have found a couple schools around here that offer some tailwheel training. One in a C140, one in a J3 Cub, and one with a Citabria. I haven't looked outside of roughly an hour drive away. I think the Cub would be both the cheapest, and easiest as my current instructor has an agreement with them.

I want to buy the Acro Sport II (180HP lyc, CS prop) biplane my grandfather built back in 1990. (The one in my pic <--)I know the owner and he has a handshake agreement to sell it to me when the time is right.

Which of the above aircraft would be best to train in for eventual transition to a biplane? On the same note - how the heck do I get transitioned to the biplane? I mean, the current owner could certainly help out and would I'm sure. But something more official? Just looking for thoughts, as this is something I'd like to start working on right after getting my PPL done.
 
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Probably the cub. Has the same style main gear as the biplane.

The spring gear on the Cessna/Citabria will be a lot more forgiving. They don't tend to bounce you as much, and if you touch down with a little bit of crab, they tend to soak it up better. The cub style gear with bungees has no side to side give and requires you to be a bit quicker and more precise.
 
The Citabria would at least be closer to the pewer/weight ratio you are planning on.

In my experience, from a "firm arrival " point of view, spring gear is the least forgiving as whatever energy you put into it comes back out. Bungee gear gives up a bit of the energy through friction between the cords.

Get some time in the back seat to get used to being blind over the nose

Put some thought into the headset and goggles if going open cockpit.

And like many things in aviation, your insurance company will have their own views.
 
dell30rb said:
Probably the cub. Has the same style main gear as the biplane.

The spring gear on the Cessna/Citabria will be a lot more forgiving. They don't tend to bounce you as much, and if you touch down with a little bit of crab, they tend to soak it up better. The cub style gear with bungees has no side to side give and requires you to be a bit quicker and more precise.
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I'd agree. Cub best. Citabria will work fine too, but I think you'll get a little more used to the sight picture of the biplane flying a Cub.

Biggest difference about biplanes, can't really be demonstrated as well in mono-wing airplanes. The drag is what will impact you more than anything in a biplane. A 10 kt x-wind in a biplane will feel much more significant than the same wind in a Cub/Citabria.
 
Citabria then Cub ;-) Just because of the power to weight as bdtaz says above. One difference between a mono and a biplane is the more limited view in the bipe. Got to keep on the swivel and move the wings around to see what's out there. FT hit on the other one; drag. In the Parrakeet, it comes down like a Cub but at a certain point as you pull the nose up to control speed or glide slope all of that surface area and struts etc. turns draggy. Nothing scary but the rate of descent comes on fast. To me more so than a monoplane.....h
 
When I was out in Michigan and flew in it with the current owner, he mentioned that he much prefers wheel landings to full stall in this plane. I also recall that on final he just slowly pulled power pretty much the whole way down the slope, ending with idle just about touchdown. At the time I was not even a student (But had flown quite a bit in younger years) so I'm sure I would notice a lot more about the plane and technique now.

I can probably start out with the Cub (Its easiest from a scheduling and cost standpoint as I mentioned) and possibly join the other local club that has the Citabria and get some time there.

More crazy questions spring to mind - Plane is in Kalamazoo MI. I'm near Syracuse NY. When the time comes, I'm sure I could have it shipped. Or do you think could I find a qualified ferry pilot to fly it back with me? What a cool trip that would be, and I could get some time in it.

Other question - Fabric is in good shape (I think it was 1990 I *think* --Edit - Ceconite, but I'm not sure - will find out) - but the paint has seen better days. I presume you can't really re-paint a fabric plane without recovering? (Paint is dupont imron as I recall)
 
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If the cub is at the club I think you are talking about (PY?) you would be hard pressed to beat the price if your instructor can fly it at the club rate. DO IT!!!!!
 
I'd recommend flying the Cub and forgetting the Citabria. I've flown an Acro Sport and they have more in common with a Cub when it comes to landing and ground handling. The Citabria is just too forgiving and has too much forward visibility. Regarding power to weight ratio, a Citabria with two up isn't much more high performing than a J-3 Cub anyway, not that this is an important consideration, IMO. I'd suggest training in the Cub and when it really comes time to fly the Acro Sport, getting a couple flights or so in a Pitts S-2. The Acro Sport is more sedate all around than the Pitts, but has more drag and descent rate than either the Cub or Citabria - especially with the CS prop. Don't sweat it. Acro Sports are ***** cats and if you are comfortable and competent in the Cub, the transition to the Acro Sport should be a breeze.
 
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Doesn't matter, as long as you get a good CFI who gives you a good foundation, but the CFI is really paramount.
 
jbrinker said:
More crazy questions spring to mind - Plane is in Kalamazoo MI. I'm near Syracuse NY. When the time comes, I'm sure I could have it shipped. Or do you think could I find a qualified ferry pilot to fly it back with me? What a cool trip that would be, and I could get some time in it.
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Yes, it's not hard to find a ferry pilot. That is actually one of the things I specialize in: ferrying low/slow biplanes for owners who don't have the time.

In my experience, ferrying is a little bit cheaper than shipping due to the cost/effort of disassembling and reassembly and the fact that there are a lot of us out there competing for ferry jobs so rates are pretty good for the buyers.

Plus, like you suggest, if you can take the time off and get the cross-country experience yourself, it really is a great way to build experience and confidence in the airplane. If you can do that, I'd highly recommend it over simply having it ferried.

I do not have my CFI yet, but will hopefully be getting off my butt and getting it done soon. Feel free to PM me when your dream gets closer to reality and I might be able to assist.

jbrinker said:
Other question - Fabric is in good shape (I think it was 1990 I *think* --Edit - Ceconite, but I'm not sure - will find out) - but the paint has seen better days. I presume you can't really re-paint a fabric plane without recovering? (Paint is dupont imron as I recall)
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I'm not an expert in fabric, but generally speaking, there are ways of touching up failing paint on fabric, but if the whole paint job is shot, then you probably will want to recover it.
 
jbrinker said:
I presume you can't really re-paint a fabric plane without recovering? (Paint is dupont imron as I recall)
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If, in fact, it is Imron, that is tough to work with.

You can repaint fabric. Mine was done over in white to cover up the original paint scheme. But it is important to understand what it was originally finished with. Why is the original paint in poor condition?
 
Agreed. Imron isn't the best thing to paint fabric with, but people have done it. You need to be compatible with the existing finish and the underlying fabric material. It's not a strict legal requirement for a homebuilt, but it's your neck.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If, in fact, it is Imron, that is tough to work with.

You can repaint fabric. Mine was done over in white to cover up the original paint scheme. But it is important to understand what it was originally finished with. Why is the original paint in poor condition?
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I'm going based my own memory from 30 years ago (so could be wrong about the system he used, and even the paint) - but I'm pretty sure that the full logs still exist for the build so I can hopefully get an answer.

As to the paint - it's not bad. Its just showing it's age, certainly it's not failing in any catastrophic way (peeling). Basically I was just wondering if I decided to do a different paint scheme (see pic to left in my sig) if I could just add some color. Maybe working around / covering the existing angle stripes and keep the base white. Or if thats such a big PITA/time/$$ that I'd be better off waiting and just doing the whole thing when the time comes (fabric and/or paint get bad enough).

Definitely going to get time in the Cub. Maybe sooner rather than later. I have a feeling that getting some tailwheel time might improve my work in the Cherokee (so maybe even before check ride if I can).

And after reading that other post today about getting some aerobatic time to improve confidence and skill, Hmm. I think I'm all over that.
 
The 140 will teach you more about dark side of taildraggers. That'll sharpen your skills. A Cub is about the easiest and most forgiving taildragger there is. One advantage of Cub time is it's a rudder airplane. A Cessna is an aileron airplane. I'd recommend getting some time in both.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Plus, like you suggest, if you can take the time off and get the cross-country experience yourself, it really is a great way to build experience and confidence in the airplane. If you can do that, I'd highly recommend it over simply having it ferried.

I do not have my CFI yet, but will hopefully be getting off my butt and getting it done soon. Feel free to PM me when your dream gets closer to reality and I might be able to assist.
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I will definitely keep that in mind! I'd love to help ferry it back, would be a blast. Might be as soon as this late summer/fall, or next spring.
 
jbrinker said:
). Basically I was just wondering if I decided to do a different paint scheme (see pic to left in my sig) if I could just add some color. Maybe working around / covering the existing angle stripes and keep the base white. Or if thats such a big PITA/time/$$ that I'd be better off waiting and just doing the whole thing when the time comes (fabric and/or paint get bad enough).
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Things can be done.
I don't have much experience painting over older two part urethane - find out what it is and follow manufacture recommendations. I will note that the stuff is real toxic, but (at least Awl Grip) comes out amazingly well using a brush with the proper reducers.
If push comes to shove - vinyl graphics can be added.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Things can be done.
I don't have much experience painting over older two part urethane - find out what it is and follow manufacture recommendations. I will note that the stuff is real toxic, but (at least Awl Grip) comes out amazingly well using a brush with the proper reducers.
If push comes to shove - vinyl graphics can be added.
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Hehe.. I re-did my 1984 fiberglass boat a few years back. Tried that whole Awl Grip by hand thing - did not work out at all for me, I made a huge mess. Wound up doing all the prep, then having a local auto body shop paint it with PPG 2-part (single stage). Has held up real well.

Now the single part epoxy bilge paint I used, that stuff goes on really well and levels nicely.

I'd dare not try and paint the plane with a brush, vinyl sounds like it might be the best bet. I know a "sign guy" that has all the stuff and does vehicle wraps, etc. Really I guess this is the least of my concern though, as getting my PPL and the plane here in the first place is going to be enough for the foreseeable future. :)
 
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