Taboo thread - How do we afford to fly?

Groundpounder said:
Age: 69
Current Plane: Lear 23
Partnership: A different one every night, if you know what I mean!!!!!!:D:D:D:D:D:p:p:p:p:):):):eek::D:D:D
Price to play: $69,000
Monthly: $690
Hourly: $6900
Gross income: $696969.69
Dream plane: You're mom
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Someone took too many blue pills and needs a cold shower……..
 
Fly the company plane. No personal flying, can’t afford it unfortunately, and I’m a A&P able to do the maintenance. If I didn’t fly Mon-Fri, I would probably be forced to get plane to scratch that itch. But life circumstances are about to change so we will have more $$$ to work with.
 
74 just sold my plane have another purchase pending. Retired,so flying is my major hobby. Where there’s a will you will find a way.
 
Z06_Mir said:
It's important in some professions that people are open and honest about what they charge as contractors. Especially in aviation where some folks are desperate to work for free. On all the FB groups and such people openly discuss their day rates, ask for advice on them, check salaries and compare to NBAA surveys etc. In that regard it's important to know so you aren't undercutting a sensitive industry and lowering everyones value.

I'm 30 years old and our friends do discuss salaries. Usually in terms of "I got a $x raise" or "I got a y% raise", though it isn't uncommon for actual dollar mounts to come into the picture. We're all DINC couples though, or single professionals, so relatively in the same place.
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Your first point is exactly where I was going with it. In my industry, when times get tough (as they have been of late), we might be asked to take a certain cut to our day rate. The problem is, I have no idea if they are selectively asking people to take a cut or making that change across the board. I could ask the head honcho, but who knows if I'm getting an honest answer? Being conditioned to feel like we're doing something wrong by asking or discussing it openly is not a good thing for anyone but the person writing the checks.

I just can't get on board with openly discussing my salary with anyone that ISN'T in my field or industry, though. I don't care how close of a friend they are. It's not their business. I mean, in conversation I can see saying something like, "Oh yeah, it's been a good week. Managed to get little raise, so I'm celebrating with a drink." Overall, though, as @schmookeeg stated earlier, "Never let a man know you have a nickel more than he does" is pretty solid advice. I have a decent house. I fly (obviously). I have a somewhat unique automobile. My friends and acquaintances can either surmise that I'm doing OK financially or they can assume I'm in debt up to my eyeballs. As much as I love my close friends, they'd be swiftly rebuffed if they asked for any details on that matter.
 
I only share how much I make when it's about 1:30am at the bar and they've made last call.
 
EdFred said:
I only share how much I make when it's about 1:30am at the bar and they've made last call.
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but you can't flash the rolls of singles wrapped with a $100 bill... no cash dontchaknow - plastic only.
 
Bob Noel said:
but you can't flash the rolls of singles wrapped with a $100 bill... no cash dontchaknow - plastic only.
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I make up printouts of my portfolio and bank account and litter the floor with them. I got all bases covered.
 
EdFred said:
I make up printouts of my portfolio and bank account and litter the floor with them. I got all bases covered.
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You could up the game with a short PowerPoint financial review. Add some 80’s sales training video music in the background.
 
No plane, yet. Still a student pilot, and holding.
You might say I bought a second house for my I’m-laws after they lost their shirts in the housing crash instead of an airplane.
No time to fly or for lessons, barely enough time to think about flying :(
I have the piece parts for a great flight simulator but have to get them to Best Buy to have them assembled. Have a great monitor picked out for a retirement present.

I’m close to retirement, need about 10% more to have 1.5X current salary at 4% withdrawal rate.

I have a flight model of the Evektor SportStar and plan to practice with it before each lesson in an actual SportStar.

Dream plane (they are pretty much down to earth, so to speak). Depending on the mission and number of people: Liberty-XL, GlaStar, Cessna 177B or RG.

Edit: The Storm Rally also looks interesting.
End Edit
My wife would appreciate either the Glastar or Cardinal, and because she has rheumatoid arthritis, my mother-in-law would really appreciate the Cardinal. I’m not sure about the Cardinal, though because I’m long waisted and tall, so might have a problem with the spar carry-through. Nothing a flight helmet couldn’t address, though.
 
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If you want an airplane bad enough, you will find a way to buy and fly one... or two, or three, or four...
 
DrewG said:
Your first point is exactly where I was going with it. In my industry, when times get tough (as they have been of late), we might be asked to take a certain cut to our day rate. The problem is, I have no idea if they are selectively asking people to take a cut or making that change across the board. I could ask the head honcho, but who knows if I'm getting an honest answer? Being conditioned to feel like we're doing something wrong by asking or discussing it openly is not a good thing for anyone but the person writing the checks.

I just can't get on board with openly discussing my salary with anyone that ISN'T in my field or industry, though. I don't care how close of a friend they are. It's not their business. I mean, in conversation I can see saying something like, "Oh yeah, it's been a good week. Managed to get little raise, so I'm celebrating with a drink." Overall, though, as @schmookeeg stated earlier, "Never let a man know you have a nickel more than he does" is pretty solid advice. I have a decent house. I fly (obviously). I have a somewhat unique automobile. My friends and acquaintances can either surmise that I'm doing OK financially or they can assume I'm in debt up to my eyeballs. As much as I love my close friends, they'd be swiftly rebuffed if they asked for any details on that matter.
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Yeah, it's a weirdly American thing. The taboo of speaking about your salary. It for sure plays to the employers hand when nobody in the office knows what anyone else is making. It makes it harder to negotiate your salary, ask for a raise, etc.

Having said that, my whole adult life, I've had a job that my pay is out there if people wanted to look. First in the Air Force, the payrates are published. No secret there. Now at the airline, with a minimal amount of Googling I'm sure people would be able to find my airline's pay rates and monthly guarantee. A little multiplication, and voila. With that being said, we do talk about our pay a little more openly at work, in the cockpit, etc. But with my non-airline friends and family members, I generally play my salary cards close to my chest.
 
Sluggo63 said:
The taboo of speaking about your salary. It for sure plays to the employers hand when nobody in the office knows what anyone else is making. It makes it harder to negotiate your salary, ask for a raise, etc.
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Why?

I believe I am fairly compensated not because I know what the person next to me in the office makes but because I constantly keep an open eye for what other employers offer for competitive salaries in my field and I know the value I bring the organization. There is a lot of publicly available data that also shows what different trades and professions pay. If I feel I am worth more than what I'm currently getting compensated I'll either look for an other job (and sometimes get a realty check) or tell my boss the objective reasons why I'm worth more. But I can tell you I will never start that conversation with "John told me he makes $50/hr.. I would like to get a raise from $45 up to at least that much"

Plus, people are selfish, everyone is going to think "man, if John is making $50/hr I should at least be making $75/hr!" .. unless you work on a factory floor and John literally does the exact same job then I highly doubt that there are positions where two people actually do the same and get paid different. More often than not that person who "is doing the same thing" maybe is a little faster, maybe they're a bit more socially intelligent and are better with clients and client calls, maybe they've come through on some harder projects, etc., maybe they're just simply more pleasant to work with.

..or maybe's it just luck. John got hired a month ago when you had to scale the team fast for a big project and the job market was competitive so you paid more for someone quick. Mike's been here for 2 years but you hired him in a different climate, things were slower, heck a year ago it was so slow you almost let him go. Should Mike get a raise via proxy of John?
 
Hold on -- question for you married guys, your wife lets you have some of the money??? I just get a small allowance.
 
ColoPilot said:
Hold on -- question for you married guys, your wife lets you have some of the money??? I just get a small allowance.
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My money goes into the joint bank account and pays for the bills. My wife's money goes into her private bank account which I don't even have access to and pays for the two children's daycare and then God knows what. So, I sometimes get to spend some of my money, but I never get to spend my wife's money, lol.
 
EdFred said:
Maybe I could channel the spirit of Billy Mays for this presentation.
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Tantalum said:
John got hired a month ago when you had to scale the team fast for a big project and the job market was competitive so you paid more for someone quick. Mike's been here for 2 years but you hired him in a different climate, things were slower, heck a year ago it was so slow you almost let him go. Should Mike get a raise via proxy of John?
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I should preface what I'm about to say here in the context of being an independent contractor in a small-to-medium sized business. Why should Mike have to be put in the position to ask for that when you are already well aware that the market is competitive and he's worth it? When I ran my own outfit, I was always on top of what I was paying everyone. I tried not to put my contractors in a position to have to ask me for more money and was proactive in terms of pay. Everyone knew who the "big dogs" were and wouldn't fault me for paying them more. I wasn't keen on paying one of my best and deserving guys less than someone equally as talented just because he wasn't aware of it or hadn't asked for it yet. I was still making money and paying someone exactly what they were worth to me was not a problem. EDIT: That isn't to say that the burden of being aware of what you're worth should fall completely on the employer's shoulders, but just speaking to the larger point that within an organization, there shouldn't be some huge measure of secrecy and taboo when it comes to openly discussing pay, when it mostly benefits the employer to keep that info in the dark.

However, I don't disagree with you when it comes to knowing your worth in a general career field and keeping aware of it. I would certainly rely on tooting my own horn and backing up why I might want (or deserve) a raise. I, like you, would never begin a conversation by stating "I know John is making X amount more," but if I got pushback on supremely valid merits for why I deserve a raise, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to bust out that statement if it was clear I ran circles (or was on equal footing) as John.
 
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NealRomeoGolf said:
It pays to be the accountant. Who's knocking bean counters now? :D
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I'm the accountant, lol. I just don't care enough to audit what the wife spends because she's actually pretty conservative spender except when it comes to the kid's clothes and holiday gifts.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I'm the accountant, lol. I just don't care enough to audit what the wife spends because she's actually pretty conservative spender except when it comes to the kid's clothes and holiday gifts.
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We're a one income household so it simplifies things in some respects.
 
DrewG said:
Why should Mike have to be put in the position to ask for that when you are already well aware that the market is competitive and he's worth it?
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That's a fair point.

Personally I just feel like there are more cons to discussing it then pros. Or maybe I've been lucky enough to be treated fairly in my employment history.. or I'm just naïve. I don't really want to know what my peers make. I'll either feel bad if they make more, or feel odd that I make more and maybe I'm a likely candidate for some "trimming off the top!" so to speak. I'd like to trust that my employer is fair and equitable and Tantalum gets paid what is deemed to be fair
 
SoonerAviator said:
I just don't care enough to audit what the wife spends because she's actually pretty conservative spender except when it comes to the kid's clothes and holiday gifts.
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I've stopped even asking the wife what anything cost because I know the answer: "We have an airplane."
 
The Security guys already know what y’all make so we can assess how easily you’ll be bribed, and we also know you got fired before you do. LOL

That’s why there’s always at least two of us. In case one of us is getting fired. Hahaha.
 
For me the key was buying my first plane (1941 Taylorcraft) before I got married, the deal was no matter how broke we were the plane wouldn't be sold except you buy another plane. It sat as a disassembled project for 10 years or so while our kids were young, then I sold it for exactly what I paid for it and spent exactly the same on a paramotor. A few years later a cheap Kolb ultralight, the worked my way back up through two other experimental biplanes (both under $10K) to the Hatz I have now. Hangar $220, annual condition inspection $650, all other maintenance I do myself. Salary, "need to know", but never enough. I drive beater cars, have a decrepit house, and will retire just as soon as I can afford to do so while keeping the plane and cabin.

I laugh when my friends spend more on their annuals then I paid for my planes.

I like good single malt whisky (Scotch, but there are some really good American single malts too now)... it's probably a good thing that I can't afford to buy it too often. But there's a fridge with good beer in the hangar...
 
Dana said:
Salary, "need to know", but never enough. I drive beater cars, have a decrepit house, and will retire just as soon as I can afford to do so while keeping the plane and cabin.
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Love it! My car is paid off and it's a 2010.. no desire to buy a new one anytime soon

Dana said:
it's probably a good thing that I can't afford to buy it too often
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..there's something to be said for that.. there's an economic sweet spot where you have enough for the occasional good stuff, which makes you really appreciate it. There's a happiness crest on the graph of money vs needs. If you drink the good stuff every night then surely that loses it's allure after a while, and you end up posting on forums on line your salary and asking people how much they make to squeeze out some happiness "well at least I make more than them!"
 
This thread is weird. I’m a public school teacher. But I’m a member of a club that makes flying realistic for me. We don’t own anything exotic but I have access to five planes and enjoy the heck out of four of them. The fifth is a bit more costly for no added benefit but that’s the calculus of life.
 
Why do people keep insisting flying is expensive? Like anything in life, it *can* be, but doesn't have to be. Anker sells a single iPad charging cable over on Amazon for $100, and for some reason some people actually buy them. I'm perfectly happy with the $3 ones myself.

Compared to many other things people choose to spend money on, I'd argue GA flying is a bargain. You're paying per plane, not per person, flying direct to airports closer to the city center than where the airlines go, when you want to go.

I'm about half-way through my PPL training, using an independent CFI and flying club. I also managed to get some trail-dragger instruction and time as well. I've not kept detailed records of costs, but it's looking like I'll end up around $7k for my PPL + real spin training + taildragger endorsement.

I cut costs where I thought it'd make sense, such as buying a used gear (iPad, radio, mounts, etc.) and training at fields with cheap avgas. I spent more than needed where I thought I'd see benefit. The CFI is well-established and charges it, and I chose the flying club with the newer, better-equipped aircraft. I've also added a few other things to my training which aren't required for a PPL.

For comparison:
The local state university here charges $838 per undergrad credit hour for out-of-state students, which there are plenty. So a required bull**** class is $2,514. A single full semester would be $15,000 in tuition alone, not including books, lab fees, etc. Grad school there goes for $1300/credit hour. I think my PPL is a much better value. I took the cheapest state Uni I could, with in-state rates.

A friend who always seems to complain about money just bought into Disney's Vacation Club. 225 points. That works out to a $43,000 buy-in, $1,900/year recurring fees for the next 50 years, guaranteed to increase over time. Not including theme park tickets, airfare, meals, etc. Add those in and you're well into airplane ownership territory.

Boats.... just fueling them alone for how little distance you'll get makes me cringe.
 
Run bootleg whiskey and a string of girls.
No wait, that's Al Capone.
While I am looking to buy, for the last few years I just rent the Cub or the Cherokee every week, depending on how far and how fast I want to go.
I figured out, early in my career, that IBM was NOT my bosom buddy, protector and friend like they want you to believe. I took care of my own financial security, and did much better than most of my compatriots.
 
AirHare said:
A friend who always seems to complain about money just bought into Disney's Vacation Club. 225 points. That works out to a $43,000 buy-in, $1,900/year recurring fees for the next 50 years, guaranteed to increase over time. Not including theme park tickets, airfare, meals, etc.
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That's nucking futs!
 
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