Switch from SR22 to 172 for IFR Training?

[Maciej]

I have a hard time accepting the fact that it's too difficult to trim a Cirrus, I know some CFIs that are capable of landing a Cirrus just using trim...

 

[Ravioli]

Do I see another 6PC production on the horizon? "How to fly an SR-22 without touching the Red Handle or arming the Auto Pilot -- A work of fiction"

 

[Bonchie]

To seriously answer his question, yes, it will be easier to pass the checkride in a 6 pack 172 with dual nav/comms and no autopilot if you do all your training in one.

Slower and less stuff to do. Much less stuff to test as far as failures go. Not nearly as complicated in regards to equipment. If it doesn't exist in the plane, the DPE can't test you on it. The more complicated your bird, the more you have to be ready for. And not having an autopilot means you are hand flying everything, which will help you towards being well within standards come test time.

But is taking the easiest way out your goal? That's up to you.

If you really want to do it in a 172, go do it. No one is going to stop you nor will your ticket be any less valid. But, I would strongly caution against doing so if you are actually just thinking "oh, I'll just pop the autopilot on, use vertical speed, and couple every approach once I'm in the Cirrus. Getting the ticket is just a formality."

You need to be fluent in the different failures and proficient hand flying the Cirrus if you ever plan to take it into IMC. As an example, things get bumpier when flying in IMC, especially in the clouds. There will be times the autopilot may not be able to handle it. You have to be ready.

 

[JasonM]

Is this more difficult to trim than, say, a skywagon, PA18, J3, pilatus, etc where you trim via moving the entire stab?

A little. I can only compare experinces to the skywagon which I have a whopping 5 hours in. No experiences in a PA18, Pilatus or J3. If there is a trim wheel, you can do such tiny changes. I have no problems trimming a cirrus, just saying that its not as fine of an adjustment compared to something with a trim wheel from my experience. My SR22T is a 2013 and every flick of the thumb trim toggle makes bigger changes than I could refine with a 182, 172 or Skwagon. There is something there. Its not a big deal though. Totally manageable and Hardly noticeable most of the time unless you are really trying to hand fly the cirrus on an IFR flight plan. I fly a lot of IFR and Long Cross country flights. Occasionally I fly long legs with the AP off to keep from getting bored. As jordane said, its not a bad trim system and should not be an issue for his training. Just a little annoying at times when you need that very minuscule adjustment.

 

[steingar]

What makes this thread so utterly laughable is WWI pilot flew biplanes with rotary engines in formation. But folks here can't fly a modern aircraft with good control harmony and no crazy gyroscopic forces as well.

 

[James331]

A little. I can only compare experinces to the skywagon which I have a whopping 5 hours in. No experiences in a PA18, Pilatus or J3. If there is a trim wheel, you can do such tiny changes. I have no problems trimming a cirrus, just saying that its not as fine of an adjustment compared to something with a trim wheel from my experience. My SR22T is a 2013 and every flick of the thumb trim toggle makes bigger changes than I could refine with a 182, 172 or Skwagon. There is something there. Its not a big deal though. Totally manageable and Hardly noticeable most of the time unless you are really trying to hand fly the cirrus on an IFR flight plan. I fly a lot of IFR and Long Cross country flights. Occasionally I fly long legs with the AP off to keep from getting bored. As jordane said, its not a bad trim system and should not be an issue for his training. Just a little annoying at times when you need that very minuscule adjustment.

Sounds like maybe cirrus should slow the motors in the trim system down, or maybe make the switch a 2 speed, low and push it further for high speed.

From flying a 208B and the PC12, I did like having trim wheels, the China hat isn't bad, but agree the wheels are a little more precise.

 

[Blueangel]

Agree you should be able to competently hand fly any plane for IFR. The AP can and will fail at wrong time in IMC. Cirrus should not be that hard to hand fly with proper training. The electric trim joystick buttons on the stick suck but can be mastered.

Weren't you the guy who insisted the glass wasn't more complex?

There is a school of thought that says it's easier to transition from steam to glass than vice-versa. Having trained IFR in both (but steam first), I can see the argument. But if you OWN the glass, it seems like gambling on a possible future long transition back to steam would be a good bet.

It's pretty easy to let hand flying skills atrophy with an autopilot. Unless you do something beyond the usual Part 91, you may never be evaluated on hand flying again, once past the checkride. But you may have to do it for real if something breaks. And it DOES happen. In my 6 months as an instrument pilot, I've already had multiple AP glitches and a blown magnetometer in IMC that took out the HSI and disrupted the GPS. And it's worrisome that you say it's hard to hold altitude in your airplane without the AP. Hopefully that's due to poor trim, and will get ironed out in training. If not, I'd think twice about flying that plane in IMC if I were you. Poor altitude control kills.

 

[Blueangel]

What makes this thread so utterly laughable is WWI pilot flew biplanes with rotary engines in formation. But folks here can't fly a modern aircraft with good control harmony and no crazy gyroscopic forces as well.

Exactly! I had the chance to fly a Yak 52 and loved the amazing control harmony in spite of the quirks of a pneumatic air brake system. Some Yak and other warbirds have been updated for IFR with glass panels. Add extended range tanks and that is the most fun XC machine you can fly on a budget. Not the most comfortable but way fun! Bonus- do acrobatics as well.

 

[oregonboy109]

A little. I can only compare experinces to the skywagon which I have a whopping 5 hours in. No experiences in a PA18, Pilatus or J3. If there is a trim wheel, you can do such tiny changes. I have no problems trimming a cirrus, just saying that its not as fine of an adjustment compared to something with a trim wheel from my experience. My SR22T is a 2013 and every flick of the thumb trim toggle makes bigger changes than I could refine with a 182, 172 or Skwagon. There is something there. Its not a big deal though. Totally manageable and Hardly noticeable most of the time unless you are really trying to hand fly the cirrus on an IFR flight plan. I fly a lot of IFR and Long Cross country flights. Occasionally I fly long legs with the AP off to keep from getting bored. As jordane said, its not a bad trim system and should not be an issue for his training. Just a little annoying at times when you need that very minuscule adjustment.

Sounds like the over-engineered the hell out of it. Was there a reason Cessna-like system wouldn't work?