Some installations were approved for variable timing advance, some were not. I haven't kept up whether which ones if any/all have been moved to the approved list.
SureFly Electronic Mag - who has one?
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Jumpmaster
Line Up and Wait
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AbnJag
Fine wire plugs are not required for the SureFly. Their Q&A spells that out.
Paveslave53
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But why not do it? If your trying to get the max out of it. I get some people don’t want to spend the extra money and I never noticed a difference but I have customers that swear by them. I can buy a lot of champion plugs for a lot less but they don’t seem to last as long. Champion plugs in general don’t seem to last as long as I remember 20 years ago. I will install a Sure Fly and let everyone know how it works at different time intervals. It seems everyone on here that has one likes it.
Flybuddy
Pre-takeoff checklist
I purchased as soon as they got the advanced timing option approved several months back. It was an easy install and set up and has performed flawlessly. Biggest improvement for me was how much better it always starts. It also is smoother and a bit more efficient. You can get gains with conventional plugs and many are widening the gaps on the plugs that fire off of the Surefly.
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Domenick
At $88 a piece, times 8 is $704,and times 12 is $1056. Which compared to the $1395 cost of the Surefly, are 50% and 75% premiums on the Surefly alone for a product you personally, "never noticed a difference."
On the other hand, if I was selling fine-wire spark plugs I'd want everyone to equip.
Paveslave53
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Paveslave53
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Also they are not required it’s if someone wants to install them. And you don’t replace all your plugs just the ones coming from that mag.
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Drake the Outlaw
Planned downtime doesn't bother me much. I can flip a mag in a week or 10 days and plan around that. My challenge is breaking down on the road. When that happens, I think I'd rather have a mag, because there's a decent chance someone on the field could repair it quickly.
I've never been AOG with a Mag, but have been AOG with an electronic ignition that took a lot of time and effort and was never resolved. I replaced *that* EI with a different model (Pmag) that has been trouble free so far.
Flybuddy
Pre-takeoff checklist
Below is a quote from another forum..Basically you simply increase the gap on your existing plugs to gain the most from the hotter spark. Given that plug gap increases with use I wouldn't go all the way to .034 from .018 but maybe to .028 or .030 and check the gap every other oil change.
"They talk about their system operating better with a larger spark plug gap, 0.034 for instance. The typical gap is 0.018. They said that a smaller gap leads to a longer dwell, lower voltage, cooler spark. The larger gap delays the spark very slightly while the voltage builds, and the spark is higher voltage (proportional to gap size), hotter, and shorter dwell. The same volume of energy is delivered in about half the time. Their testing has found that engines run slightly smoother with the shorter, hotter spark. They recommend allowing the plugs to burn out the gap from 0.018 to 0.034 naturally over a couple of hundred hours, rather than opening out the plugs by hand".
"They talk about their system operating better with a larger spark plug gap, 0.034 for instance. The typical gap is 0.018. They said that a smaller gap leads to a longer dwell, lower voltage, cooler spark. The larger gap delays the spark very slightly while the voltage builds, and the spark is higher voltage (proportional to gap size), hotter, and shorter dwell. The same volume of energy is delivered in about half the time. Their testing has found that engines run slightly smoother with the shorter, hotter spark. They recommend allowing the plugs to burn out the gap from 0.018 to 0.034 naturally over a couple of hundred hours, rather than opening out the plugs by hand".
Paveslave53
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Paveslave53
Interesting......well that makes gaping them super easy just fly it. Did you notice a drop in GPH? That’s really one of the large selling points for me. Nothing’s perfect everything has its positives and negatives. You have diehard Carb fans that think fuel injection is stupid so this wont be any different. Only way to find out I guess is to put one on and set my mag on the shelf. I already have Lycon worked Cylinders,Challenger Air filter and GAMIs so lets see if it makes it better yet again. If powerflow made exhaust for the 182 I would do that in a heart beat,it was a bit loud but made a huge difference in the 172. My other question is how long are your plugs lasting?
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Domenick
Could you post a link to the other forum?
Flybuddy
Pre-takeoff checklist
Here you go:
https://bearhawkforums.com/forum/be...rmation-about-surefly-sim-electronic-ignition
Gives good info and fuel burn and efficiency also. I've got about 60 hours on Surefly now and agree with the above links OP.
https://bearhawkforums.com/forum/be...rmation-about-surefly-sim-electronic-ignition
Gives good info and fuel burn and efficiency also. I've got about 60 hours on Surefly now and agree with the above links OP.
WannFly
Final Approach
So a 180 horse now becomes 205? That’s crosses the HP threshold, so would you need HP Endorsement after the upgrade?
Paveslave53
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Technically not because it is still only rated at the HP on the type Cirt. Perfect example is if you got a mattituck engine that was 10 over. My friends Sierra was a 200HP IO-360 I will ask him what the STC read because now it has to be more than 200 Horse power which means it would be High Performance now. The Lycon service instruction reads that it is FAA approved so I wonder what it would be because your not changing anything performance wise your cleaning up the cylinders. My AC is already HP. They don’t put your cylinders on a Dyno so where would the proof of gains be? How about if you put powerflow exhaust on a 180HP conv 172 they claim 23 hp on the dyno.... no proof gains when your hanging on the prop it could be 21 for all we know and making it HP.
Well we have the Sim6L installed and were trying to figure out some final wiring questions.
What did I find buried into the FAQs....14 FAQs down the list.... will not work with Horizon tachometers.... guess who has one? Me
Nothing about this in the installation instructions.
Horizon P 1000 tach
Maybe there is a fix. I hope.
What did I find buried into the FAQs....14 FAQs down the list.... will not work with Horizon tachometers.... guess who has one? Me
Nothing about this in the installation instructions.
Horizon P 1000 tach
Maybe there is a fix. I hope.
donjohnston
Pattern Altitude
I had the same issue with my GRT tach. Jason built an adapter board because he said there were some other tach's that wouldn't work with his mag output. The first version helped but still didn't work perfectly. By the time I got version 2, I had installed a tach sensor.
So I would call Jason and ask if he's got an adapter for your Horizon tach.
So I would call Jason and ask if he's got an adapter for your Horizon tach.
NavAir
Pre-takeoff checklist
Can you move your tach sensor to the remaining original magneto?
Will call today. That is encouraging.
Yes but how do you do a mag check? By ear?
NavAir
Pre-takeoff checklist
Same way you do it now. RPM is displayed regardless of which mag(s) you are running on...
Morgan3820
Ejection Handle Pulled
I just installed an electrinics international CG R – 30 P. In talking with their tech support apparently there’s a resistor in the wire between the p-lead and the electronic tachometer. He said that if it doesn’t work that they can change the resistance on that wire and that usually fixes the issue. I will find out shortly as I have a Surefly on the bench waiting to be installed. Something to do with the strength of the signal from the Surefly vs the magneto.
Just talked to Surefly. They are very helpful but I'm a bit screwed. Mag is already installed, wire pulled, just needed wiring questions answered and I find my Horizon P-1000 tach is not compatible.
On the left mag alone the tach will read 0. Right mag, Slick mag, will read correctly. I asked him if it was legal and he said they had asked the FAA but had not gotten an answer. I'm sure I could hear a bad mag check. They have been obvious in the past. I think I'm ok with one mag feeding my tach.
They have a box that converts the signal so the Horizon P-1000 tach can read it. They are working on FAA approval but not expecting it until Summer. We discussed a possible field approval and I'm investigating that. The box is roughly 4”x2.5”x0.5” and requires mounting to the airframe with screws, washers and bolts and specifies the exact wire to use. Not sure where I could fit it in my already full panel and will have to rewire the leads / tach wires.
They offered to give me my money back..... but that doesn't fix the time / money I've got into it. I'll be patient and see what the FAA has to say. My Slick mags are both above 500 hrs and the rebuild shop is 3-4 weeks out. Ugh what a pickle I'm in.
Check your Tach before you order. They said they should have verified I didn't have a tach that was not compatible before purchase. I asked that they put that in step 1 of the instructions. Or not hide it in the FAQs. I was so looking forward to this emag... crap
NavAir
Pre-takeoff checklist
Well, I'm still confused about your situation. On my aircraft, the right mag has a Hall effect sensor which creates the RPM signal. If I were to replace the right mag with the SureFly, I would transfer this sensor to the left mag, Your tachometer setup is obviously different. Good luck with getting the issue resolved...
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Mountainlover
The horizon tachometer has two independent tachometers in the instrument. Each is run off of the p-leads of its respective magneto. If that magneto is grounded or the tachometer can't read the p-lead signal for that channel, you get a "0"
Paveslave53
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Paveslave53
If you need Repairs quick and correct the only place we use in the DFW area is Aircraft ignition services LLC. Hands down the best I have used. I got the contact from another IA and another pilot.I got the mags back for my H2AD and they worked better than they ever had and he returned all the damaged/unserviceable parts. 903-378-7205. My friend brought his mags over yesterday because he was affected by the slick mag service bulletin and over his 500 hour he was told he will have them back Monday.
SloRoam
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SloRoam
I just did a with a surefly install with a EI mvp-50, and had to remove the resistor and replace it with a 10k resistor, which worked. The EI installation manual specifically covers this and says that you don't have to use the resistor when using an electronic ignition.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
I had a SureFly fail in my IO-470, but noticed it on run up. They replaced it overnight and my mechanic installed it. We then had a fuse fail on the second, and the first seemed to have been partly related to the fuse as well. When that was replaced, it has been fine. Apparently, we were the first to see a true failure (lucky). We do seem to do better than book fuel economy.
NavAir
Pre-takeoff checklist
Thanks for the explanation. That seems like a weird system. What happens when you do a mag check? If you ground one mag and the tach shows zero RPM, how do you quantify the mag drop?
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
If it shows zero, it is off. When I had a Horizon (with 2 regular mags), it would show a drop like any other.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
This is one of the neater things the Horizon does. From the manual:
MAG-DROP DISPLAY MODE
Loss of either magneto signal causes the P-1000 to turn the appropriate status indicator, remember the engine RPM at the time the signal was lost, and display the drop in engine RPM that resulted from the loss of the magneto. When this feature is used in conjunction with the ignition switch, pre-flight magneto performance tests, or “Mag-Drop”, can be easily and accurately performed. During this mode of operation, the LCD should show a small RPM number, normally preceded by a minus sign (“-“) indicating that the engine slowed down. A display without a minus sign indicates an engine that has increased in speed. If the loss of signal remains for more than fifteen seconds, the P-100 will revert back to displaying the engine RPM, determined from the remaining functioning magneto.
So I now have the Surefly mag in my IO-540 on the Left side. Plane starts better. Much better. I haven't done any long cross country flights yet and I haven't been above 6000 feet yet, so the performance benefits are yet to be explored.
I am having the slightest bit of roughness during L mag check but it is within limits.
The Horizon P-1000 works but off the right mag only. During the run up I get tach for both and R but blank on the left. It is easy to hear the difference between the right mag and the left mag. There is no difference in RPM. There is a fraction of a second drop when selecting the left mag, that is just part of the Surefly design and is a few mili seconds.
Surefly has a box that will fix this. They are waiting for FAA approval. It requires finding a spot to mount the box with bolts, washers and nuts and running specific wire. Not as simple as they made it sound. I'm waiting for FAA approval.
SO MAKE SURE YOUR TACH WILL WORK WITH THE SUREFLY.
So far so good for the Surefly. Supposed to give 2400 hours or service life.
I did have my right Slick mag serviced locally. Slick mag at about 600 hours. Cost me $250 for the 500 hours service plus $100 for the mag install. So not nearly as much as I thought it would cost for a Slick service.
Yes. Still prime the same. Hot starts seem better. I am having plug fouling after landing on the Surefly side spark plugs. I have always had to lean a lot on the ground.
So far so good. Still waiting to do a long cross country with the new mag.... dang CV...
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
I appear to have had one fail on me yesterday. In the air. Mechanic is working to figure it out.
Pilotronics
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FatherElectron
To all the skeptics: You realize that you've have electronics under the hood of your car right next to that running engine for the last 25 years with a single ignition, right? I have driven a over million miles since 1995 and have never had an electronic ignition failure. I had 2 dead mags..one Slick and one Bendix. There are brushes and points in there making contact on every spark fire. I am going Surefly.
You haven’t had a failed alternator or battery in 25 years? You’ve never had a problem starting a vehicle in 25 years? I doubt it. Failures in an auto are easily forgettable because the consequences are little more than an inconvenience at best. Not so much in aircraft.
donjohnston
Pattern Altitude
I haven't had a battery or alternator fail while driving in longer than that. Sure, I've replaced batteries. But only when I had indications that it was starting to fail.
And failures in autos aren't always easily forgettable. When it's your only vehicle and travel far from home, it can be memorable.
Morgan3820
Ejection Handle Pulled
I’ve been running a Surefly on my left mag in my arrow for over a year and I see a 10% drop in fuel consumption. I can cruise at 8.7 gallons an hour, LOP.
thomasdr72
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'm all for electronic ignitions, but I find that a large number of mag failures are due to lack of maintenance (IMHO). The flight school I just started wrenching at has one plane that the mags haven't been touched in 1,300hrs. Kind of like a ticking time bomb for ignition related items. If you open and clean them every 500hrs, maybe a dab of grease, a new nylon cam and a carbon brush change is all they really should need. (Yes, the MFR manuals will tell you to replace all kinds of crap, but they are trying to sell parts). Slick 4300 ignition coils are nearly $375 from Kelly? The whole damn mag should cost that much...
But hey, I can shut off the master switch and continue to my destination in relative peace with my two mags
Anyway, ignition advance and no wear parts would be nice (as long as they prove themselves to be bullet proof!).
YMMV!