student pilot solo - spending hours at destination?

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david
A question for instructors (or students who've had a similar experience)...
I've got a private pilot student with his own plane who wants to do his long solo to an airport in another state (~250 miles away) to visit a friend. He'll spend most of the day there before returning.

This is probably typical of the type of flight he'll do once he gets his license so I want to use it as a learning experience for planning and doing real world cross country flights.

I'm not concerned about his ability to get there and back safely if the weather is good. And of course I'm not going to let him go if I have concerns with the weather.

My question is related to endorsements for the flight: can I endorse him for the whole flight (there and back) before he leaves? Or, given that the return flight will be around 8 hours later, do I need to give him a separate endorsement for the flight back (maybe via text after talking with him on the phone about the plan)?

I'm leaning toward the latter, but if one endorsement for the whole thing is both safe and legal, that would be a lot easier for both of us.

Thoughts?
 
The regulations are silent on this issue. They do not specify how long before the flight the endorsement can be made. Therefore, I would just make one endorsement and send him on his way. However, I would want him to call me before he comes back to do a quick check of the weather and appropriate NOTAMS and such.

Besides, the legality of electronically sending an endorsement to a student is met with mixed opinions, as seen in this thread:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...solo-xc-endorsement-is-what-i-did-okay.76864/

It is clear from the thread that I have no problem with electronic endorsements, but others are not so inclined.

I also think this flight will be a great training event and wish more pilots would do this.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
A question for instructors (or students who've had a similar experience)...
I've got a private pilot student with his own plane who wants to do his long solo to an airport in another state (~250 miles away) to visit a friend. He'll spend most of the day there before returning.
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OMG! :yikes:

You have a student who dares to fly a longer XC than what the minimums require? And to another state to boot! That poor guy will never be the same. Imagine the horror of what he'll learn and the skills he'll develop by flying such a long distance. That's just not right!

I'm just joking with you... I caught all kinds of hell awhile back from all the pattern flyer kiddies here who think flying over 50nm from their home airport is a death sentence.

Yeah... I'm that guy who wants to do a 1500 mile solo XC. :yesnod:
 
I'm not a CFI, so take this with a grain of salt. The flight back isn't always the same as the flight there. Weather can change, it can get dark, etc... Were it me I'd only endorse for the trip out, and withhold for the trip back until I could see that conditions were going to be all right. The best might be to engage a CFI at the student's destination who can review the trip back with him. Hope it helps.
 
steingar said:
I'm not a CFI, so take this with a grain of salt. The flight back isn't always the same as the flight there. Weather can change, it can get dark, etc... Were it me I'd only endorse for the trip out, and withhold for the trip back until I could see that conditions were going to be all right. The best might be to engage a CFI at the student's destination who can review the trip back with him. Hope it helps.
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Endorsing a one way trip would be a logistical nightmare. Also I don't know of any CFI who would endorse a one way cross country. That would mean the student would have to find a CFI at the destination to endorse the trip coming back or the original CFI could fax over the return endorsement to the FBO I guess.
 
jordane93 said:
Endorsing a one way trip would be a logistical nightmare.
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And authorizing a solo flight with an uncertain return invites disaster. Anything happens and its on the CFI. That said, we have fax machines, even text messaging. The primary CFI could give an endorsement remotely.
 
As long as you trust the student will call you before heading back home I wouldn't worry about the 2 endorsements. If you don't trust him to do that I prob wouldn't sign him off for that long of a x-country anyways.
 
steingar said:
And authorizing a solo flight with an uncertain return invites disaster. Anything happens and its on the CFI. That said, we have fax machines, even text messaging. The primary CFI could give an endorsement remotely.
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I was just about write what @neilw2 said
 
I agree, one endorsement and have the student call before returning.

If that is the typical flight for the student then I think it would be beneficial for the student.

Of course I am assuming you have already done a dual with him on this route already.
 
Well, you know the student far better than anyone here, but I'd be concerned about "get-there-itis" with a plan like that.

It's almost as good pedagogically to do an equivalent flight to somewhere similar, where he has no friends to distract him from the task at hand.

And he'll have plenty of time to do that particular trip after his ticket.
 
Zeldman said:
Of course I am assuming you have already done a dual with him on this route already.
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Why would that be an assumption? IMO, the "long" cross country should be to someplace new so the student can get valuable experience.
 
RussR said:
Why would that be an assumption? IMO, the "long" cross country should be to someplace new so the student can get valuable experience.
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Yea I only flew the route with my students on their first ever solo cross country then I had them pick different airports that they wanted to fly to.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
A question for instructors (or students who've had a similar experience)...
I've got a private pilot student with his own plane who wants to do his long solo to an airport in another state (~250 miles away) to visit a friend. He'll spend most of the day there before returning.

This is probably typical of the type of flight he'll do once he gets his license so I want to use it as a learning experience for planning and doing real world cross country flights.

I'm not concerned about his ability to get there and back safely if the weather is good. And of course I'm not going to let him go if I have concerns with the weather.

My question is related to endorsements for the flight: can I endorse him for the whole flight (there and back) before he leaves? Or, given that the return flight will be around 8 hours later, do I need to give him a separate endorsement for the flight back (maybe via text after talking with him on the phone about the plan)?

I'm leaning toward the latter, but if one endorsement for the whole thing is both safe and legal, that would be a lot easier for both of us.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
 
Zeldman said:
Of course I am assuming you have already done a dual with him on this route already.
Click to expand...

I undertook 3 solo cross country flights during my primary training. All 5 airports I landed at on those trips were ones I had never seen before, including a couple Class Deltas (I learned at a pilot-controlled field). Total of 8.6 hours and almost 700nm combined.

With that being said, I'm sure that the instructor would not approve his student for a trip he wasn't confident would end in success. If the CFI needs to take the exact same trip with the student to gain that confidence then I guess that's an option.
 
The reg simply requires "One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations;".

And you are endorsing a student on a +500 NM total distance XC with one segment 250 NM between takeoff and landing points with a long layover. What could possibly go wrong?
 
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RussR said:
Why would that be an assumption? IMO, the "long" cross country should be to someplace new so the student can get valuable experience.
Click to expand...
If I recall, there is a verbiage in the solo sign off that states that the CFI needs to fly that route for the first time. I don't k me if that's only for the first short one or not.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Clip4 said:
And you are endorsing a student on a +500 NM total distance XC with one segment 250 NM between takeoff and landing points with a long layover. What could possibly go wrong?
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The sky will fall, the sun will set in the east, and all the little birdies will fly backwards. Once the airplane passes that magical 150nm mark, then the universe goes kablooey. That's my guess. :rolleyes:
 
WannFly said:
If I recall, there is a verbiage in the solo sign off that states that the CFI needs to fly that route for the first time. I don't k me if that's only for the first short one or not.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Negative. The reg basically says we need to review the route with the student.
 
I don't think I'd sign off on that but if you feel confident that you could sufficiently explain why you felt it was safe to an FAA official if something does go wrong, then it's your call.
 
RussR said:
The regulations are silent on this issue. They do not specify how long before the flight the endorsement can be made. Therefore, I would just make one endorsement and send him on his way. However, I would want him to call me before he comes back to do a quick check of the weather and appropriate NOTAMS and such.

Besides, the legality of electronically sending an endorsement to a student is met with mixed opinions, as seen in this thread:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...solo-xc-endorsement-is-what-i-did-okay.76864/
Click to expand...

That's a reasonable way to handle it. I suppose if things like weather and NOTAMs haven't changed, there's not much difference between him stopping there for 5 minutes or 5 hours. So his plan should still be just as valid as it was when he left.

I was unaware there were concerns regarding texting an endorsement. Thank you for bringing that up.
 
Clip4 said:
The reg simply requires "One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations;".

And you are endorsing a student on a +500 NM total distance XC with one segment 250 NM between takeoff and landing points with a long layover. What could possibly go wrong?
Click to expand...

Quite a few things could go wrong. But managing risk is part of flying. We'll spend time before the day of the flight talking about potential risks and ways to mitigate them. Given the context, I think that lesson on risk management is going to be well received.
 
azblackbird said:
I'm just joking with you... I caught all kinds of hell awhile back from all the pattern flyer kiddies here who think flying over 50nm from their home airport is a death sentence.

Yeah... I'm that guy who wants to do a 1500 mile solo XC. :yesnod:
Click to expand...

I recall the thread. Don't recall if I commented on it, but I don't see myself signing off on a 1500nm solo student XC. Where's the line between ok and not ok, distance wise? Don't know.

But note that even a 500nm solo XC is bringing up some concerns and issues I'm unsure how best to handle. A 1500nm XC will bring up many more issues.

If I trust a student to be fully capable of a 1500nm solo XC (I know a lot of private pilots I don't trust are fully capable of a 1500nm solo XC), I'm going to be pushing them towards a checkride.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
Quite a few things could go wrong. But managing risk is part of flying. We'll spend time before the day of the flight talking about potential risks and ways to mitigate them. Given the context, I think that lesson on risk management is going to be well received.
Click to expand...

In the end, you might be the person receiving the lesson. The potential risks for this flight out weigh the potential benefit IMO.
 
Phone call before return sounds okay to me, but I'm just another student myself.

If you do it this way, part of planning should consider the situation where he can't return that day. Hotel? Stay with the friend? Rental car? Any pressing engagements the next day? Will he have just Hobbs hours to pay for the plane, or is there an extra charge?

All these things can exert pressure to fly. It would be a good learning exercise to get him to think the whole thing through.
 
jordane93 said:
Yea I only flew the route with my students on their first ever solo cross country then I had them pick different airports that they wanted to fly to.
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Yep, that's how I did mine. CFI and I did a dual, then I did it alone, then I picked 3 places I wanted to visit that had a total flight time long enough (when combined with the Night dual) to finish my required XC time. I really wanted to go to a cool lakeside airport, but there was a big MOA in the way, and I didn't want to plan a direct flight and an around-the-MOA flight in case it was hot on the chosen day, so I went elsewhere.

As for the out of state, I landed in two and crossed a third one. The airport boundary was ~100 yards from the state line (parallel to the runway) and call it 5 nm straight out to the 3rd state.
 
Clip4 said:
In the end, you might be the person receiving the lesson. The potential risks for this flight out weigh the potential benefit IMO.
Click to expand...

Well I hope not.

Do you think the flight is going to be any safer when he does it for the first time as a private pilot? That will likely be without the benefit of an instructor looking over his shoulder on the planning, offering suggestions, grilling him on possible issues, etc...
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
I recall the thread. Don't recall if I commented on it, but I don't see myself signing off on a 1500nm solo student XC. Where's the line between ok and not ok, distance wise? Don't know.
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That's what I've been trying to figure out. I can understand if you're a student who is renting and the owner not wanting his plane 600 miles from base, but if you own your plane and if your instructor deems you a competent enough pilot to sign off for that long of a XC, then why not? In my case I'll be flying 200 to 500 mile loops once or twice a week for my business, so why not train (both VFR/IFR) as early and as often as possible under the auspice and guidance of a knowledgeable and competent instructor for the very type missions that I'll actually be flying once I get my tickets? :dunno:
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
Well I hope not.

Do you think the flight is going to be any safer when he does it for the first time as a private pilot? That will likely be without the benefit of an instructor looking over his shoulder on the planning, offering suggestions, grilling him on possible issues, etc...
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Yes, because prior to the 250 NM trip he will have experienced another long XC, completed all his training/experience/skill requirements, planned a long XC to the first fuel stop for the practical, got grilled by an examiner on his planning, and passed a practical test certifying he meets the requirements for a private pilot instead of lower standards required to complete a student XC.
 
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steingar said:
And authorizing a solo flight with an uncertain return invites disaster. Anything happens and its on the CFI. That said, we have fax machines, even text messaging. The primary CFI could give an endorsement remotely.
Click to expand...

No return is ever certain. Student could get to destination, hit the jon and by the time he's out thunderstorms could have formed.
 
I would also worry about fatigue setting in and night if he gets delayed at the destination. Also, out here in the west it gets a lot more bumpy in the afternoon which can add stress and fatigue to a long flight.
 
Not a CFI, didn't do this as a student. My $.02:

Since the student's desired long cross country sounds really close the the commercial XC requirement, I would look at this a little differently. Apparently the FAA considers 250NM significant. Why is that? What factors come into play that aren't there for the 50NM PPL XC?

How do I prepare the student for, what is essentially a C-SEL requirement? Can you tailor the syllabus to address what skills/experience is significantly different about that? What other tools are available to help ensure the students success? What about aviation decision making, not just for flight duty, but everything else that leads up to it? Maybe do an equivalent time length session with the student in the morning, then do the same thing again several hours later? Have the student do it on Xplane first to simulate the experience (with real time weather)?

Personally, if I knew this upfront, I would plan how to help the student be successful. If this was closer to spur of the moment, AND it was different enough from what I usually do/train to, then I would be more reluctant to endorse, but use this as a teaching opportunity to introduce all the factors that need to be considered.
 
as a 10 month PPL, I still remember being a student.

I did my short solo CC at the minimums. as I was a little longer primary student (checkride at 80 hours), my instructor was comfortable signing me off for my long solo CC to go 182nm each way from the Class D I trained at, to a class D I'd never been to before on the other side of the cascades. NOW, we did this on a day with really high ceilings, and a lot of planning, inspecting my plan, grilling me about airspaces along the way, an agreement to refuel at the destination to give myself a HUGE fuel margin on the return trip, an agreement about what the weather METARs and TAFs would have to say when I checked them from my destination before I could hop in the plane and return. Where restricted airspace and MOAs were along the route and how to think about them.

All that said, it was a good trip and I learned a lot, but I also know it was more risk than a minimum distance CC staying in the same weather system on the west side of the cascades. I, as the student, wanted to push myself a little, while I still had an instructor looking over my shoulder, because as a Private Pilot, I intend (and do) travel, so i wanted to learn some lessons while I had an extra cocoon around me of still being a student and having to brief an instructor on my whole plan and have him ask a bunch of what if's? what are you going to do about Y? How will you navigate around this airspace and ensure you don't violate it? How will you handle frequency changes on FF? If the fuel is broken at the destination, do you have enough to come back? (trick question, yes I did, but a lot, but would i? or would I land at another airport on the way back to get fuel? which one? what are the frequencies and patterns there? where is the fuel on the field? etc.

this was planned over the course of a week, and i had a backup plan navlogged and ready to go to stay on the west side if the forecasts would have deteriorated for the mountain crossing
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
Well I hope not.

Do you think the flight is going to be any safer when he does it for the first time as a private pilot? That will likely be without the benefit of an instructor looking over his shoulder on the planning, offering suggestions, grilling him on possible issues, etc...
Click to expand...

The biggest difference I see: YOUR ass is not on the line when he does it as a private pilot. But as your student...?
 
For the OP, if you learn anything here, it's that POA is not the place to be asking this kind of question. You need to go to a professional pilot/instructor board.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
A question for instructors (or students who've had a similar experience)...
I've got a private pilot student with his own plane who wants to do his long solo to an airport in another state (~250 miles away) to visit a friend. He'll spend most of the day there before returning.

This is probably typical of the type of flight he'll do once he gets his license so I want to use it as a learning experience for planning and doing real world cross country flights.

I'm not concerned about his ability to get there and back safely if the weather is good. And of course I'm not going to let him go if I have concerns with the weather.

My question is related to endorsements for the flight: can I endorse him for the whole flight (there and back) before he leaves? Or, given that the return flight will be around 8 hours later, do I need to give him a separate endorsement for the flight back (maybe via text after talking with him on the phone about the plan)?

I'm leaning toward the latter, but if one endorsement for the whole thing is both safe and legal, that would be a lot easier for both of us.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

From AC61-65F:
"(2) Except for cross-country flights described by § 61.93(b), before each solo cross-country flight, an instructor must endorse the student’s logbook per § 61.93(c). The instructor who makes the endorsement to authorize this solo cross-country flight will personally review the student’s preflight planning and preparation and attest to the correctness and preparedness of the student’s cross-country planning under the known circumstances. The instructor may add limitations to the endorsement to ensure an accurate written understanding between the student and the instructor to better ensure the safety of the flight."

I feel that the return flight might be considered a separate solo cross country flight by some FSDOs because of the eight hour gap.

I would encourage my student to finish his training so he would have the freedom to do what he wants when he wants and ask that he not spend too much time at a distant airport.

As a student pilot he has a lot of restrictions.

As his instructor I want to teach him to follow the rules.
 
Fearless Tower said:
For the OP, if you learn anything here, it's that POA is not the place to be asking this kind of question. You need to go to a professional pilot/instructor board.
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Any particular one(s) you suggest?
I've looked at a few professional pilot boards but they came across more strongly geared towards those in the airlines and those wanting to be.
 
Ok, in my first post to this thread I essentially said cover your ass. Now I'm going to say "cover his ass". How will you feel if he runs into trouble and dings the plane up, or worse? Your student is counting on you to help him make the right decisions. Would this be teaching him proper decision making? Is he really able to determine if this flight is safe for him or not? Most students wouldn't be. He's relying on you to keep him from being in the air wishing he was on the ground.

You have to make the decision, but remember that he's relying on you to guide him the right direction.
 
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