Student Pilot Solo Cross Country Overnight?

Skipped to the end and didn't read all posts. Anyone suggest getting a CFI at the other end to sign off and send him back?
 
Given that your CFI flew the plane with you from coast to coast, I'd say he's in a much better position to make this call than a bunch of internet quarterbacks. Having the two XCs separated by several days is not an issue from either a training or a regulatory standpoint.

My only thought is that, if I were your CFI, I'd want to see that you had mitigated the "Get-There-Itis" pressure somehow, in both directions. Maybe a ticket for a commercial flight in your pocket as a backup, maybe a timetable that allows you to drive instead of fly, maybe you have a buddy who's driving that could give you a lift, whatever. Have a backup plan in case flying your own plane won't work.

The pressure will probably be greatest for your return, so knowing you can hitch a ride back or hop on a bus or something can take off a bit of strain. When WX prevents your return flight, you shouldn't be asking "What do I do now?" You should already know.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Personally I’m not thinking much of anything would jump out at an examiner. Ryan expressed reservations about it being a good idea, but I can’t imagine that would have a significant effect on what happens when an applicant shows up for a checkride.
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Right - we're talking best practices here, not a limitation on what's acceptable for this particular aeronautical experience requirement.
 
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Jeff Messick said:
Brad-
Sorry, got a little busy with work but to answer your questions:
1. I only have about 5 hours solo so far.
2. 0 solo cross country (but 15.7 total dual cross country)
3. Longest solo so far was 1.6 hours (practiced a bunch of maneuvers and flew to another airport about 20 miles away to do touch and goes)
4. I started my training on April 20th this year and as of today I have 45.1 hours total
5. 28.1 hours in a Cherokee 140 and 17.0 hours in the Cherokee 6/260

Also, I will be flying from Bakersfield (L45) to Corona (KAJO) tomorrow with a different instructor (I flew with him once, on my stage check before my first solo) My instructor wanted me to fly the route once with an instructor before doing it solo (because the airspace in So Cal is quite busy). Then my instructor will pick me up Sunday and we will fly back. We are also working on all the maneuvers and emergency's that I already had down in the 140 in my new plane (that's what we did today along with landings). Next week we will get in all the rest of the night flying, more maneuvers and emergency's. The following week we will be doing more hood time and solos. The last week before my trip will be more solo, check ride prep and, if it works out, my check ride, if not just some more soloing. Also, each weekend during this training I am hoping to fly from Bakersfield to Corona. Luckily, we usually have really good weather this time of year.
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Sounds like a case of Getthereitis
 
What’s allowable is not always the best practice. Have you discussed your plans with your CFI and ,will he sign you off for the return trip,by phone.
 
This is what scares me from OPs second post “…I will not be IFR rated so I would not fly in IMC…”

There are many post crash articles about deteriorating conditions and inadvertent imc entry
 
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Op,

In my humble opinion I think you should just drive the trip. You have 40 hrs which you think is a lot but I just don't think this sounds like a good idea. There will be many more exciting trip once you have your ppl. Don't risk it.
 
Like others, my take is, it depends.

If you are finished with your requirements (except maybe some test prep flying), and ready for the check ride, maybe. And yes, back up plans would need to be place, which is good training for after you pass the check ride.
 
I apologize for scaring off the OP.
 
Domenick said:
I apologize for scaring off the OP.
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Stop being so scary. lol

I think you were spot on on your assessment of the situation to be honest. I am approaching 300 hrs and still feel like a fraud about to be discovered some day by making a mistake. I flew about 150 hrs with my sports pilot license and thought I knew everything. Well, after going through the ppl training I now realize how much more I should have known all those years. Taking dumb risks is just not worth it.

Just 2 weeks ago I wanted to fly to Indy (90 mins flight vs 3.5 hrs drive). the cessna I wanted to fly was down. I thought about flying one of the LSAs but only had 2 hrs in it. Went up with a cfi the morning of the trip to see if I would feel comfortable taking it. Did some T/G and it almost felt like a discovery flight. After an hr I landed and told the cfi I am driving the trip. He said good idea.

Live to enjoy all of the more exciting trips you could later.
 
I sorta half recon he was one of those ...what do you call them?... a fictional character making up a story to stir the pot....
 
Jeff Messick said:
Brad-
Sorry, got a little busy with work but to answer your questions:
1. I only have about 5 hours solo so far.
2. 0 solo cross country (but 15.7 total dual cross country)
3. Longest solo so far was 1.6 hours (practiced a bunch of maneuvers and flew to another airport about 20 miles away to do touch and goes)
4. I started my training on April 20th this year and as of today I have 45.1 hours total
5. 28.1 hours in a Cherokee 140 and 17.0 hours in the Cherokee 6/260

Also, I will be flying from Bakersfield (L45) to Corona (KAJO) tomorrow with a different instructor (I flew with him once, on my stage check before my first solo) My instructor wanted me to fly the route once with an instructor before doing it solo (because the airspace in So Cal is quite busy). Then my instructor will pick me up Sunday and we will fly back. We are also working on all the maneuvers and emergency's that I already had down in the 140 in my new plane (that's what we did today along with landings). Next week we will get in all the rest of the night flying, more maneuvers and emergency's. The following week we will be doing more hood time and solos. The last week before my trip will be more solo, check ride prep and, if it works out, my check ride, if not just some more soloing. Also, each weekend during this training I am hoping to fly from Bakersfield to Corona. Luckily, we usually have really good weather this time of year.
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IDK if the OP is still around... Didn't sound like fiction to me, kind of a real-ish scenario. But if he is still listening -- that sounds like a bad idea for your own safety.

Concerns:
- The fact that you consider yourself to be more well versed in wx considerations than other pilots with similar experience levels is the first red flag. What you have is 15 hours dual XC flying side by side with an experienced instructor who almost certainly made all the important decisions, or led you to the correct conclusions. With 5 hours solo, you effectively have zero experience making go/no-go decisions. You can probably count on 1 hand the number of times you've had to make that decision. Or what I've found to be equally important is the in-air: "do I continue on?" or "land now?" decisions. Those are decisions you've probably never made. At 500h (80% XC) I'm still encountering scenarios that are new to me and require good decision making to avoid trouble. If you make the wrong decision too early on -- it can be lights out.
- If as of today you have zero solo XC experience, I would consider that a hard no to even discuss the topic (if I were a CFI). Unless you were able to cram in like 5 solo XC trips in the next 2 weeks, I wouldn't even entertain that idea. That's going from "zero to hero" a little too quickly.
- If I were your CFI knowing that you're going on a "guys trip" I'd be pretty concerned about the risk of you flying hungover or otherwise not well-rested on your way back...
- EDIT: I'd also be concerned about the fact that your XC has built-in "time pressure" to make the trip work. If the request was "I'd like to do a trip down there sometime and stay overnight to visit parents" or something, that'd be a little better. But when it's "X date to Y date", no... That just puts too much pressure on an inexperienced pilot to make the trip happen.

All that said, I'm glad you already have an eye towards using your plane for practical travel rather than just flying laps in the pattern *yawn*. Once you get that license you'll be able to take these trips any time you please. In the meantime it feels like a dangerous proposition to put an essentially zero time XC/zero time solo student pilot on a multi-day XC.
 
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§ 61.89 (General Limitations) says a student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft in furtherance of a business.

Now I understand that golf is not necessarily business, but I've interpreted this regulation as saying that training flights should be for the purpose of training, i.e. to gain the aeronautical experience required for the practical test. That doesn't mean that a student is not allowed to do something fun while on the ground during a cross country flight, but the purpose of the flight is flight training, not the fun activity on the ground. In this case, it sounds more like the gold outing started the whole thing, and the solo cross country comes later. I would not sign this off as a CFI.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
§ 61.89 (General Limitations) says a student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft in furtherance of a business.

Now I understand that golf is not necessarily business, but I've interpreted this regulation as saying that training flights should be for the purpose of training, i.e. to gain the aeronautical experience required for the practical test. That doesn't mean that a student is not allowed to do something fun while on the ground during a cross country flight, but the purpose of the flight is flight training, not the fun activity on the ground. In this case, it sounds more like the gold outing started the whole thing, and the solo cross country comes later. I would not sign this off as a CFI.

- Martin
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Unless he plays on the PGA I don't see how a golf outing with his buddies is in the furtherance of a business. When I have students with their own plane, I sign em off for all sort of fun trips. Was even going to sign one off on an overnight, but weather put the kibosh on that. We were to go over the flight plan on the phone with them sending me pictures of their flight plan, and me taking a picture of the endorsement and sending it back to them.
 
EdFred said:
Unless he plays on the PGA I don't see how a golf outing with his buddies is in the furtherance of a business. When I have students with their own plane, I sign em off for all sort of fun trips. Was even going to sign one off on an overnight, but weather put the kibosh on that. We were to go over the flight plan on the phone with them sending me pictures of their flight plan, and me taking a picture of the endorsement and sending it back to them.
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He did not call it a business. His point was "In this case, it sounds more like the gold outing started the whole thing, and the solo cross country comes later."

Uncle Martin is the voice of reason. I wouldn't question it.
 
ahmad said:
He did not call it a business. His point was "In this case, it sounds more like the gold outing started the whole thing, and the solo cross country comes later."

Uncle Martin is the voice of reason. I wouldn't question it.
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So what if the golf outing started the whole thing. I had a student that wanted to go fly to a family reunion and over night. What makes that different than golf? Nothing.

I question everyone. I'm also a CFI. No CFI is unquestionable - myself and Martin included. We aren't gods, nor should we be treated as such.
 
EdFred said:
No CFI is unquestionable - myself and Martin included. We aren't gods, nor should we be treated as such.
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100% agreed.

Maybe I am overly cautious here. My thinking is if something goes wrong on a flight (ANY flight), people/lawyers will be looking for someone to blame. In this case, the CFI who endorsed the flight will be under intense scrutiny, and it may very well make a difference whether the flight was required for proficiency or to gain the prescribed aeronautical experience (i.e. flight training) vs. an additional add-on merely because the practical test couldn't be completed in time for this trip.

- Martin
 
Sorry guys, I know its been a little while but I have been busy flying! ;-) Thank you all for the advice and constructive criticism. My Instructor and I have have been talking this trip over. As I said originally, the first plan was to get my license even before this trip, but we could not get a DPE in time and still haven't gotten ahold of the DPE's that my instructor usually sends his students to. I have done approximately 20 more hours of flying since I first posted this 2 weeks ago (I would have liked to do more but my instructor had to fit in his other students sometimes, lol). I was supposed to fly a solo cross country last week in my plane for the first time but we both felt it was pushing it and I wasn't quite ready so it didn't happen until this week. I am also flying part of the trip I would be making next week later today, solo. After today's flight we will discuss next week again and if everything goes well, I will likely the do the trip solo next week. I have planned out the flights already and reviewed my flight plans with my instructor. I will touch base with him the night before and morning of each leg of the trip. I do have alternates in place for each leg (if issues on first leg, I will drive myself for the whole thing. If issues on the second leg, I will ride home with a friend from Palm Springs then drive myself to Parker, AZ. Then return to Palm Springs after to fly back to Bakersfield later. If issues with the 3rd leg, I will ride home with my sister's family from Parker, AZ, drive myself to Bakersfield for work the next day and pick up the airplane later with my CFI flying me there from Bakersfield.) I know some of you may not agree with mine and my CFI's decision but we both feel I am ready for this and that I understand my limitations and that I will follow my personal limits. I have no issues with altering my plans and driving, if conditions (not just weather) are less then ideal. Thanks again everyone and I hope to run into some of you at an FBO sometime!
 
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Jeff Messick said:
I was supposed to fly a solo cross country last week in my plane for the first time but we both felt it was pushing it and I wasn't quite ready so it didn't happen until this week.
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So you've only now just done one solo X Country?
IMHO - no, please don't fly to your golf vacation.

Finish your PPL training first.
 
I'm reminded of the saying that if it takes that long to explain, it's not a good idea, you're just kidding yourself. But good luck. You'll probably be fine.
 
Get there itis comes in many forms.

The hidden pressure here is the bragging rights of saying to the old friends you golf with annually "I flew my new Piper Cherokee 6 out here for this year".

Nothing else makes it even mildly necessary to fly that week. You have already committed in your mind that going in your plane is very important, and you are trying to find good excuses for it to be a good idea.

Drive, or hop on an airliner, relax, and play great golf with your best friends, that is what this trip should be focused on.

Like you, I was a very much better than average pilot when I did my check ride, and after my first 2000 mile cross country with my family on board, I found that I had learned a lot in the first 4 hours, and luck helped it turn out well. I will touch lightly on an important shortcoming in your training. The flight clear across the USA was untended to have hood time in it. You, and your instructor,, forgot it. If you forgot the hood, most airports that you refueled at sold them, fix the deficiency, and fly hood time. What might you forget to do PROPERLY on this proposed flight?

The prestige of flying your new plane to golf with those friends is driving you more than you realize. With more than 40 years of flying, I recognize such pressures more clearly than the year I received the ASEL.

The Geezer is ASEL, Commercial, and Instrument. And a lot wiser than when he became a pilot. :)
 
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What would the insurance company’s POV be on this?
 
I echo the ones that say this is between you and your CFI. It’s his neck on the line, and he knows you better than anyone here. If he is comfortable and willing to sign you off, go have fun. The nay sayers here are looking out for your best interest though, it’s the safest option. Er well, the safest option is never getting in a GA aircraft in the first place, but…anyway. Just make a conscious effort to not die or kill anyone.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Probably the same as it would be for any solo flight in the airplane.
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Unless something happens and they claim this wasn’t a student pilot solo but a golf vacation flight that he wasn’t rated to fly. You know how they can get.
 
WDD said:
Unless something happens and they claim this wasn’t a student pilot solo but a golf vacation flight that he wasn’t rated to fly. You know how they can get.
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Is there a separate golf rating now? “Airplane Single Engine Land Golf?”
 
WDD said:
Unless something happens and they claim this wasn’t a student pilot solo but a golf vacation flight that he wasn’t rated to fly. You know how they can get.
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After two claims of my own, it sounds like I don’t know how they can get.
 
Hey, I could be wrong. Maybe he can just call his insurance company and tell them what he's going to do and get the definitive word on it.
 
WDD said:
Hey, I could be wrong. Maybe he can just call his insurance company and tell them what he's going to do and get the definitive word on it.
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Why would he need to call them for this if they’ve already said he can train and fly solo in it?
 
They might say that what he’s about to do isn’t a student doing a solo but a guy flying where and when he shouldn’t. But yes, you think that this is a legitimate student solo and any insurance company would be just fine with it. I hear your POV.
 
WDD said:
They might say that what he’s about to do isn’t a student doing a solo but a guy flying where and when he shouldn’t. But yes, you think that this is a legitimate student solo and any insurance company would be just fine with it. I hear your POV.
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My experience is the insurance companies trust authorized flight instructors to do their jobs. Every time I’ve tried to get guidance as an instructor from an insurance company, whatever I decided was right would be fine with them.

I’ve also never seen an insurance company go out of their way to not pay a claim.
 
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WDD said:
They might say that what he’s about to do isn’t a student doing a solo but a guy flying where and when he shouldn’t.
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If an FAA Certified Flight Instructor says it’s okay, I doubt an insurance company will be inclined to argue. If the student is flying within the limits of his solo endorsement the insurer has no “out.”
 
MauleSkinner said:
My experience is the insurance companies trust authorized flight instructors to do their jobs. Every time I’ve tried to get guidance as an instructor from an insurance company, whatever I decided was right would be fine with them.

I’ve also never seen an insurance company go out of their way to not pay a claim.
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Man I dont know about aviation insurance but I am pursuing a career into aviation from the medical field mostly because of the insurance companies. They deny deny deny every claim they could for all kinds of BS reasons.
 
ahmad said:

Man I dont know about aviation insurance but I am pursuing a career into aviation from the medical field mostly because of the insurance companies. They deny deny deny every claim they could for all kinds of BS reasons.
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That I’ll agree with…which is why we don’t have health insurance.
 
I've only landed in Palm Springs once, but the winds were on the sporty side -- 25kt-ish. At the time it wasn't too much of an issue because they were more or less down the runway; I don't know if Palm Springs winds are reliably like that, but if not and you can get that much wind as mostly-crosswind that might be... exciting.
 
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