Student Pilot Solo Cross Country Overnight?

Jeff Messick

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JMessick82
Hi, student pilot here. I recently bought a Cherokee 6/260 and flew it from South Carolina back to Southern California with my CFI. I am hoping to do my check ride by the end of the month but scheduling may not allow it. I am doing my training in the Bakersfield area (up there during the week for work) and live in Corona, CA. I have an annual guys golfing trip planned for the end of the month. In the event that we can't get me licensed before the trip, I would like to fly solo from Bakersfield to the Palm Springs area for our trip (with a possible stop in Corona/Riverside). I would be staying in Palm Springs for about 5 days. My instructor and I can not find anything that says whether I can or can't stay overnight at a different location after a cross country. Do any of you know any regs that might be helpful?
 
There is nothing to prohibit overnight stays for students on cross-countries. It's been done. Sticky point will be getting signed off from your overnight departure point.
 
Are you experienced with some simulated instrument time? My biggest worry when I was new was flying into IMC conditions accidentally, it can be deadly if you are not prepared and know what to do.

I do not think it is smart to sign off on conditions for the following day. Weather can change on a dime, especially in California. However that isn’t to say that you cannot have a phone call, do a weather briefing and submit your xc plans to your instructor by text for a go ahead or not.

Don’t push any weather conditions is the key advice here.
 
Ask your CFI how 61.195(d)(2) will be complied with.
 
Thanks everyone! I will talk to him see if he can do a separate endorsement the day of via Foreflight to comply with 61.195(d)(2). As far as working in IMC, we wanted to get some of that in (and he brought the hood with him) on our flight from South Carolina but we forgot, lol. So, we are working on that now, over the next couple weeks but obviously I will not be IFR rated so I would not fly in IMC. If the conditions were IMC when I was planning on leaving I would either wait it out or have a family member or friend come pick me up and drive me home and pick up the plane later. Thanks again everyone, you have been really helpful!
 
Sounds foolish to be honest. As a CFI I would never sign off on this. If I felt like my student was good enough to do it I would just get him squared away with his practical and official cert..
 
If the conditions were IMC
How much experience do you have managing wx, flying in haze, and stuff that is technically VFR but limited VIZ?

Just because an airport is green on Foreflight doesn't tell you much

Sorry, just being honest
 
Honestly, I am a student, so I don't have a ton of experience in any conditions really, but I would say I have more then most students and even newly licensed pilots. We did just get back from 15hrs of flying across the whole country during which I saw and experienced quite a few weather conditions including having to land an wait out convective activity twice (once at night). I live and fly in California so haze is very common. So overall, I feel pretty confident that I have enough experience with wx to know to avoid any poor conditions and to error far on the side of caution. As far as getting squared away with the practical and official cert...we just can't get the DPE in time to get it done before my trip. I do already have over 45hrs and I am taking the written next week. We have most of the requirements checked off except some hood time, my solo cross country and the check ride review.
 
In my thinking the biggest ding pointing be to join the "bad idea" band wagon is that your solo flights should ideally be with a distinct training purpose, and be very carefully controlled/monitored by your CFI. Doesn't smell like a good idea to jump into anything that might even nudge you towards "get there itis". My student cross countries were a very long time ago, but I remember them as all being very much a 100% focus thing, starting in the days leading up to it for planning, etc...

Maybe I missed it, but do we know how many solo hours you have so far? how many solo cross country hours? What has been your longest solo to date? and bigger picture stuff, how far along are you with the PPL training? Have all your hours been in your Cherokee 6? I also don't know which of those airports you're flying out of but it seems to be around about a 150nm solo, each way. I also certainly do not know the weather there or that airspace...but that seems less significant since you live and train there.... maybe

That said, I recon that must be about a 140kt airplane...so maybe a little more than an hour each way...say 1.5 hours
Looking back in my log, I see that my student solo cross countries were all about 1 to 2.5 hours, with the long one being 4.7 total hours. that one looks to have been about 328nm straight line route...so about the same linear distance as my long cross country, but mine was a closed triangular course covering a lot less weather and a lot less distance from familiar airspace.
An hour cross country doesn't seem out of the question..... except that in that hour you're covering a lot larger piece of weather than I did in an hour in the 152!

So yeah, I see some red flags for sure.... but hey, a recon depending on the answers to those questions about your experience it might not be such a far fetched thing. Besides, your instructor know you and is the one signing off...not me. (thankfully)
 
If I didn’t trust a student to deal with the issues discussed, he ain’t going on ANY cross country. I don’t see a unique problem with a different day.
 
In my thinking the biggest ding pointing be to join the "bad idea" band wagon is that your solo flights should ideally be with a distinct training purpose, and be very carefully controlled/monitored by your CFI.
Seems to me that limiting what can be learned would be a bad idea, and at this point the instructor should be able to loosen his rip on the student as he’s just about ready for checkride anyway.
Doesn't smell like a good idea to jump into anything that might even nudge you towards "get there itis". My student cross countries were a very long time ago, but I remember them as all being very much a 100% focus thing, starting in the days leading up to it for planning, etc...
Not allowing a student to do anything that resembles real life after the checkride also seems like a bad idea to me.

Building good judgment should be the goal, not eliminating the ability to exercise good judgment.
 
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Nothing in the Regis restrict you from you plan. But how many solo hours do you currently have?
 
Although I think a student should be capable of this, I also think its putting the cart before the horse a bit...get the license, then fly as many overnights as you want...until then, put me in the "no overnights while a student" camp.
My long student cross country was many many years ago, but I do remember my instructor being "around" when I took off, AND, when I landed. I'm sure it was intentional.
 
My long solo was in late 1954. Glendale Calif to San Diego then Tucson AZ RON and return.
I was earning flight time working as a lineboy and had a lot of hours earned. :)
 
In my thinking the biggest ding pointing be to join the "bad idea" band wagon is that your solo flights should ideally be with a distinct training purpose, and be very carefully controlled/monitored by your CFI. Doesn't smell like a good idea to jump into anything that might even nudge you towards "get there itis". My student cross countries were a very long time ago, but I remember them as all being very much a 100% focus thing, starting in the days leading up to it for planning, etc...

Maybe I missed it, but do we know how many solo hours you have so far? how many solo cross country hours? What has been your longest solo to date? and bigger picture stuff, how far along are you with the PPL training? Have all your hours been in your Cherokee 6? I also don't know which of those airports you're flying out of but it seems to be around about a 150nm solo, each way. I also certainly do not know the weather there or that airspace...but that seems less significant since you live and train there.... maybe

That said, I recon that must be about a 140kt airplane...so maybe a little more than an hour each way...say 1.5 hours
Looking back in my log, I see that my student solo cross countries were all about 1 to 2.5 hours, with the long one being 4.7 total hours. that one looks to have been about 328nm straight line route...so about the same linear distance as my long cross country, but mine was a closed triangular course covering a lot less weather and a lot less distance from familiar airspace.
An hour cross country doesn't seem out of the question..... except that in that hour you're covering a lot larger piece of weather than I did in an hour in the 152!

So yeah, I see some red flags for sure.... but hey, a recon depending on the answers to those questions about your experience it might not be such a far fetched thing. Besides, your instructor know you and is the one signing off...not me. (thankfully)

Brad-
Sorry, got a little busy with work but to answer your questions:
1. I only have about 5 hours solo so far.
2. 0 solo cross country (but 15.7 total dual cross country)
3. Longest solo so far was 1.6 hours (practiced a bunch of maneuvers and flew to another airport about 20 miles away to do touch and goes)
4. I started my training on April 20th this year and as of today I have 45.1 hours total
5. 28.1 hours in a Cherokee 140 and 17.0 hours in the Cherokee 6/260

Also, I will be flying from Bakersfield (L45) to Corona (KAJO) tomorrow with a different instructor (I flew with him once, on my stage check before my first solo) My instructor wanted me to fly the route once with an instructor before doing it solo (because the airspace in So Cal is quite busy). Then my instructor will pick me up Sunday and we will fly back. We are also working on all the maneuvers and emergency's that I already had down in the 140 in my new plane (that's what we did today along with landings). Next week we will get in all the rest of the night flying, more maneuvers and emergency's. The following week we will be doing more hood time and solos. The last week before my trip will be more solo, check ride prep and, if it works out, my check ride, if not just some more soloing. Also, each weekend during this training I am hoping to fly from Bakersfield to Corona. Luckily, we usually have really good weather this time of year.
 
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I am finding this a confusing conversation to follow.

Sorry Mongoose,
I was specifically addressing his question about wx conditions. I feel I have more experience than most students do in dealing with wx conditions (mainly due to the 15hr cross country trip I just did last weekend with my CFI).
 
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I’d skip it and drive, new plane, 45 hour student, challenging airspace, potential for get thereitis. Nope. Or pay your instructor to go with you, take the plane back, then come get you 5 days later. Smarter plan imo.
 
I'm not a cfi, but if I were I wouldn't sign off on it. Not because it's either dangerous or prohibited, but because it doesn't look right. Solo flight is for the purpose of learning to fly, not to take overnight trips with. If something goes sideways, this could be twisted around to make the instructor look bad, in my opinion. There's enough pressure and distraction with learning to fly without adding more.

Just my 2 cents, and I'm a bit risk averse with aviation things.
 
Are you experienced with some simulated instrument time? My biggest worry when I was new was flying into IMC conditions accidentally, it can be deadly if you are not prepared and know what to do.

I do not think it is smart to sign off on conditions for the following day. Weather can change on a dime, especially in California. However that isn’t to say that you cannot have a phone call, do a weather briefing and submit your xc plans to your instructor by text for a go ahead or not.

Don’t push any weather conditions is the key advice here.

there’s no marine layer between Corona and Palm Springs, at least.
 
I'm in the "not a great idea" camp. This is the sort of trip you can and should enjoy after earning your private pilot certificate, which sounds like it's right around the corner. Prior to that, stay in training mode. A thoughtful CFI probably wouldn't want to have anything to do with this.
 
The regulation requires the instructor state the student's preflight planning and preparation is correct and that the student is prepared to make the flight safely under the known conditions.
 
I'm in the "it depends on the student" camp when it comes to an overnight.

I didn't do one, but I suspect some here would be horrified by my long student solo (a 300 nm one at that time) where I visited friends for several hours before encountering deteriorating weather on the way home.
 
On my long student solo, I had delay during two stops which meant that I was clearly going to run out of sunlight before I completed my flight. This was a longer flight around 500 nm more or less. I called and discussed it with my CFI. I stayed overnight and departed the next day in the AM. I then had frosty wings the following day in the AM so couldn't even depart (to finish the solo flight) until the frost melted off. I had flown the same route with my CFI as dual a day or two earlier and I was going to repeat the same thing solo. I was just slower at everything when solo and than the delay at my last stop was the final issue that made it not possible to finish before sunset. I do not recall if it was a regulation but my CFI had clearly told me in advance to only fly during the day and no night flights. It ended up working out, just not exactly as planned.
 
This is not an overnight. It’s a solo cross country, five days of golfing and other guys trip stuff, then another solo cross country.

If a DPE looked at that entry, I’m wondering what, if any, questions he might have. Could go any number of ways from positive to neutral to negative.

OPs question started with…it’s not addressed in 14 CFR. Tell me about the decision making that went into this….
Preflight planning…
What did the weather look like five or more days in the future?
What considerations were taken into account in the event some type of maintenance was required while at the distant end?
What happens if the CFI is abducted by aliens while you’re out playing golf?
What happens if you break a leg?
What pressures exist for you to get there? How about pressure to get back? How were those addressed?
 
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Brad-
Sorry, got a little busy with work but to answer your questions:
1. I only have about 5 hours solo so far.
2. 0 solo cross country (but 15.7 total dual cross country)
3. Longest solo so far was 1.6 hours (practiced a bunch of maneuvers and flew to another airport about 20 miles away to do touch and goes)
4. I started my training on April 20th this year and as of today I have 45.1 hours total
5. 28.1 hours in a Cherokee 140 and 17.0 hours in the Cherokee 6/260

Also, I will be flying from Bakersfield (L45) to Corona (KAJO) tomorrow with a different instructor (I flew with him once, on my stage check before my first solo) My instructor wanted me to fly the route once with an instructor before doing it solo (because the airspace in So Cal is quite busy). Then my instructor will pick me up Sunday and we will fly back. We are also working on all the maneuvers and emergency's that I already had down in the 140 in my new plane (that's what we did today along with landings). Next week we will get in all the rest of the night flying, more maneuvers and emergency's. The following week we will be doing more hood time and solos. The last week before my trip will be more solo, check ride prep and, if it works out, my check ride, if not just some more soloing. Also, each weekend during this training I am hoping to fly from Bakersfield to Corona. Luckily, we usually have really good weather this time of year.

Sorry Mongoose,
I was specifically addressing his question about wx conditions. I feel I have more experience than most students do in dealing with wx conditions (mainly due to the 15hr cross country trip I just did last weekend with my CFI).
Jeff, I'll not opine on the regulatory issues in question. I will opine on the tone of your posts with some tough love.

Your responses smack of overconfidence to me. 45 hours is NOTHING. 5 hours of solo is NOTHING. Most students have NO wx experience, and saying you have more than none means NOTHING. You're making pretty bold statements and we know the saying about bold pilots.

I believe the most dangerous time for a new pilot is the period before 300 hours. It's a time when you think you know and can deal with more than you really can. It's a time of overconfidence. According to years of Nall Safety reports, beyond 300 hours the accident rate drops. I made it through my first 300 hours although I did make some poor decisions which I still shake my head at and luckily did not end poorly. I'm not flying for adrenaline, and any get-there-itis is now behind me. At one time I thought I was a great pilot, now I know I'm about average.

I'll end with an observation. If you were not having reservations about your plans, why post the question? Over and over pilots ignore that little voice with poor outcomes.

I'm not you, and I'm not your CFI. I won't tell you what to do except what I have noted above.
 
Whether you do this as a student pilot (and thus your CFI has to endorse your return flight before you make it) or as a fresh private pilot (and thus do not require a CFI to proofread your flight plan, but no regulation says you can't ask a CFI to do that for you), it's the same flight. Talk to your CFI about how it would work and how the DPE will handle it. If your CFI approves, then go for it.
 
I don't necessarily take issue with the five-day separation between the two cross countries, but mostly I advise some good, hard thought because I don't think you realize how hard this trip will be. Flying solo is a lot different than flying with a CFI, especially in the cross-country environment.

Even if you think you were making all the decisions, doing all the weather recognition and avoidance, and flying the airplane for that 15 hour cross country flight last weekend, having the instructor in the right seat takes a lot of the cognitive burden off your shoulders. You know that if you make a bad decision, the CFI will correct it for you. It may not seem like a lot, but it adds a whole new level of stress to cross country flight when you are solo and alone, especially as a new solo student (which, with only five hours, you are).

When I was training, my CFI trusted my judgment and by the time I was soloing, she was more comfortable with my abilities than I was. She probably would have signed me off for a flight like the one you're proposing without issues, whereas I would have been a lot less blasé about it. A big part of my caution was because solo cross-country was much more exhausting than I was anticipating, and the fact that you have no solo cross-country time is worrying since you don't know if or how it will actually impact you.

My long solo cross-country was almost exactly the same length as the distance proposed, and when I got back to my home field, I was so tired that my decision making was significantly worse than usual. There were two runways, one paved and one grass, at my home airport, and they crossed at almost exactly 90*. I got the weather when I was about ten miles out, and the winds -which were forecasted to be calm/minimal when I took off from my last landing spot - had changed to be 9G15, almost 90* from the calm wind runway that I was planning on using when I took off. Instead of changing to the runway that the wind was nearly straight down, which I would have normally done without an issue, it never crossed my mind that I should switch runways. I just stuck with the original plan and executed a safe, but significantly less than pretty, crosswind landing when I could have and should have done a much simpler landing on the crossing runway.

That landing not only was a stupid decision, it also busted the solo limitations for winds that I had at that time. Normally, I was very cognizant of keeping within the limitations. Switching runways based on prevailing winds was even something that I had done frequently before at this point - I would go practice landings in the mornings in 2 hour blocks, which often resulted in playing runway hopping to keep the crosswind component under control as the winds changed. I got lucky, because I did have the skills to deal with the crosswind as my CFI and I had gone up under very gusty winds a couple of times to practice crosswinds, but if I was not so tired, I wouldn't have needed those skills to keep myself and the plane together in the first place. If you would have asked me if I would do something that dumb before I left, I would have assured you there was no way something so stupid as a landing like that would be how I ended my cross country.

Sorry for the long story, but I don't want you to fly to an airport that you are not that familiar with and end up doing something stupid or pranging the plane because you didn't account for the human factor well enough. That's not to say that you aren't capable of this flight, but I would just be very careful to ensure that nothing induces "get-there-itis" on either the trip there or back as inexperience combined with a need to be somewhere is frequently deadly.
 
May you? Should you?
Sounds like you may, but it has some regulatory grey and some big ADM questions.
As to the should? I find myself humbled often by how little I still know in (life, business, marriage, parenting, diving, flying) and have been doing all above for more than a few years.
Good ADM means years of golf trips, enjoying your new plane, taking buddies up, coaching kids sports. Bad ADM is one and done.
 
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Brad-
Sorry, got a little busy with work but to answer your questions:
1. I only have about 5 hours solo so far.
2. 0 solo cross country (but 15.7 total dual cross country)
3. Longest solo so far was 1.6 hours (practiced a bunch of maneuvers and flew to another airport about 20 miles away to do touch and goes)
4. I started my training on April 20th this year and as of today I have 45.1 hours total
5. 28.1 hours in a Cherokee 140 and 17.0 hours in the Cherokee 6/260

Also, I will be flying from Bakersfield (L45) to Corona (KAJO) tomorrow with a different instructor (I flew with him once, on my stage check before my first solo) My instructor wanted me to fly the route once with an instructor before doing it solo (because the airspace in So Cal is quite busy). Then my instructor will pick me up Sunday and we will fly back. We are also working on all the maneuvers and emergency's that I already had down in the 140 in my new plane (that's what we did today along with landings). Next week we will get in all the rest of the night flying, more maneuvers and emergency's. The following week we will be doing more hood time and solos. The last week before my trip will be more solo, check ride prep and, if it works out, my check ride, if not just some more soloing. Also, each weekend during this training I am hoping to fly from Bakersfield to Corona. Luckily, we usually have really good weather this time of year.

um, yeah... based on your experience I'm solidly with Domenick on this one. post #29
not all that much time in your new very high performance plane....
zero cross country solo
only a miniscule 5 hours total solo, with none of that cross country

not that it means anything really, since every person and case is different..... but as a reality check data point -
when I passed by checkride it looks like I had 20.9 hours total solo
and before I did my long solo cross country I had about 12.0 hours total solo hours and 6.8 total solo cross country hours
and 100% of my time all the to checkride was in one aircraft type... a very docile and simple cessna 152.

Now I might sing a slightly different tune if you were basically checkride ready right now, & just waiting for the date to roll around.......All your required student solos done......All your time in that one aircraft......Lots of recent experience including perhaps having flown the exact same route dual with your CFI (which I do see that you are saying you were planning to do already)
+ assuming your instructor would be on the phone with you prior to takeoff for the return, etc.... + assuming your instructor has strong faith that you are that good

....................
If a DPE looked at that entry, I’m wondering what, if any, questions he might have. Could go any number of ways from positive to neutral to negative.
..................
looks like one did give some thoughts....see post number 24
 
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The regulation requires the instructor state the student's preflight planning and preparation is correct and that the student is prepared to make the flight safely under the known conditions.

Yep. I once had a s̶t̶u̶d̶e̶n̶t learner experience an engine failure at his destination on one of his solo cross country flights. We flew a different airplane to his location and he continued his flight back to home base the next day in that airplane. I reviewed his planning and the conditions had not changed, so there was nothing to change on his solo cross country endorsement. I could have re-written the endorsement with a new date, but instead I just made a note on the line for his return leg.
 
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Seems to me the only thing that might look out of the ordinary beyond two different normal cross country flights on different days, might be that the departure airport for the return flight would be from an airport that's NOT his normal home base. I don't see how that would be any big deal in and of itself.
What is it taht you are thinking would jump out at an examiner?
 
Seems to me the only thing that might look out of the ordinary beyond two different normal cross country flights on different days, might be that the departure airport for the return flight would be from an airport that's NOT his normal home base. I don't see how that would be any big deal in and of itself.
What is it taht you are thinking would jump out at an examiner?
Personally I’m not thinking much of anything would jump out at an examiner. Ryan expressed reservations about it being a good idea, but I can’t imagine that would have a significant effect on what happens when an applicant shows up for a checkride.
 
Hi, student pilot here. I recently bought a Cherokee 6/260 and flew it from South Carolina back to Southern California with my CFI. I am hoping to do my check ride by the end of the month but scheduling may not allow it. I am doing my training in the Bakersfield area (up there during the week for work) and live in Corona, CA. I have an annual guys golfing trip planned for the end of the month. In the event that we can't get me licensed before the trip, I would like to fly solo from Bakersfield to the Palm Springs area for our trip (with a possible stop in Corona/Riverside). I would be staying in Palm Springs for about 5 days. My instructor and I can not find anything that says whether I can or can't stay overnight at a different location after a cross country. Do any of you know any regs that might be helpful?
Work out a means of planning review for the flight home the day of flight and go. It really comes down to what your cfi is comfortable with endorsing.
 
If you had finished all your requirements and it was just a matter of scheduling the examiner, I would say go for it, with the return flight under the telephonic supervision of your instructor. But I think you're nowhere close. Be patient and look forward to making that trip next year.
 
Brad-
Sorry, got a little busy with work but to answer your questions:
1. I only have about 5 hours solo so far.
2. 0 solo cross country (but 15.7 total dual cross country)
3. Longest solo so far was 1.6 hours (practiced a bunch of maneuvers and flew to another airport about 20 miles away to do touch and goes)
4. I started my training on April 20th this year and as of today I have 45.1 hours total
5. 28.1 hours in a Cherokee 140 and 17.0 hours in the Cherokee 6/260

Also, I will be flying from Bakersfield (L45) to Corona (KAJO) tomorrow with a different instructor (I flew with him once, on my stage check before my first solo) My instructor wanted me to fly the route once with an instructor before doing it solo (because the airspace in So Cal is quite busy). Then my instructor will pick me up Sunday and we will fly back. We are also working on all the maneuvers and emergency's that I already had down in the 140 in my new plane (that's what we did today along with landings). Next week we will get in all the rest of the night flying, more maneuvers and emergency's. The following week we will be doing more hood time and solos. The last week before my trip will be more solo, check ride prep and, if it works out, my check ride, if not just some more soloing. Also, each weekend during this training I am hoping to fly from Bakersfield to Corona. Luckily, we usually have really good weather this time of year.

It can be done, but personally I would not sign off for both ways without a one-on-one discussion prior to each leg. This can be done via zoom or telephone, and electronic sign off is certainly possible. The biggest thing I would watch for is that the student is not letting other factors such as golf schedules and work schedules dictate the flight plan.
 
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