Student pilot flying with Private pilot

Jake Simpson

Jake Simpson

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Oct 22, 2021
Messages
28
Display Name
Display name:
cvgaviation
Good evening,

I have some questions regarding a student pilot flying with a PPL and what's legal. I'll throw out some hypotheticals to make it easier to understand. If a PPL flies with a student, obviously the PPL is PIC and is the only one who can log time no matter what. Let's say PPL flies a 172 with the student who also trains in the 172. Is the student legally allowed to fly the plane, and if so to what extent? Is there any regulation prohibiting student from flying the plane/manipulating the controls? Can the student takeoff, taxi, land the aircraft? What if a student wants to go up and practice his/her landings and the PPL goes with him and is PIC, as long as the PPL has "final authority" of the operation of the aircraft IAW 91.3? Just been curious about this in a while as it's hard to find a clear answer. Thanks!
 
The big caveat would be who sits in what seat. Many private pilots have little to no time in the right seat and it would be best if they are in the left seat due to that fact. Meanwhile, the student flying in the right seat might have the result of confusing them and delay development of good muscle memory. Not a deal breaker per se, but something to consider.
 
SkyDog58 said:
The big caveat would be who sits in what seat. Many private pilots have little to no time in the right seat and it would be best if they are in the left seat due to that fact. Meanwhile, the student flying in the right seat might have the result of confusing them and delay development of good muscle memory. Not a deal breaker per se, but something to consider.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of my instructor's repeated remark when I was transitioning to the right seat when beginning to work on my CFI.

"No. The other throttle!"
 
SkyDog58 said:
The big caveat would be who sits in what seat. Many private pilots have little to no time in the right seat and it would be best if they are in the left seat due to that fact. Meanwhile, the student flying in the right seat might have the result of confusing them and delay development of good muscle memory. Not a deal breaker per se, but something to consider.
Click to expand...
When I was training my cfi took my dad up to see how he'd do right seat so I could sit left seat and get more (non-loggable time) in before solo. He could hardly taxi the thing. Ended up pulling mixture full lean instead of carb heat. Apparently it was quite the show. Amphibious he is not. Needless to say I sat right seat when we flew together. My problem from the right seat was not having airspeed in front of me on landings. That completely threw me off.
 
You begin to get into a gray area when the PPL holder sits right seat, as it starts to look like instruction, especially from a litigation standpoint. Other than that, what you’ve proposed is perfectly legal.
 
They can fly the ship, but you’re still PIC, minus some stuff where you need a sign off to touch the controls.
 
RyanB said:
You begin to get into a gray area when the PPL holder sits right seat, as it starts to look like instruction, especially from a litigation standpoint. Other than that, what you’ve proposed is perfectly legal.
Click to expand...

And with administrative “law”, looks often have more weight than facts sadly.
 
SkyDog58 said:
That’s a big half truth bordering on distortion. Looks might be what draws the attention. Facts determine the outcome.
Click to expand...
Someone has to decide what they consider the facts to be. That someone is an administrator, and they do it at their discretion. There is no disputing what they consider a fact.

I suspect people that think facts are self evident things that can’t be disputed has never seen a ruling where the “findings of fact” contain a list of things that are demonstratively false and many times the exact opposite of the truth. I’ve seen it first hand.
 
Don't overcomplicate this.

Under part 91, there are no restrictions on who can manipulate the controls.

Under part 91, there are no restrictions on which pilot seat the PIC occupies unless the aircraft imposes such a restriction.

It's up to the PIC to decide from which seat(s) he can safely fly and who he allows to manipulate the controls.
 
SkyDog58 said:
That’s a big half truth bordering on distortion. Looks might be what draws the attention. Facts determine the outcome.
Click to expand...
Salty said:
Someone has to decide what they consider the facts to be. That someone is an administrator, and they do it at their discretion. There is no disputing what they consider a fact.
Click to expand...
Well, let's split the difference and say the fact-finder, here an administrative judge, determines what the facts are based on the evidence presented. But it is inaccurate to say there is "no" disputing what they consider a fact. There is a lot of leeway about what evidence a fact-finder believes or not, but factual findings (even those by juries) have been reversed on occasion.
 
Some insurance policies or rental agreements may require the PIC to be in the left seat.
 
SkyDog58 said:
That’s a big half truth bordering on distortion. Looks might be what draws the attention. Facts determine the outcome.
Click to expand...

In most of the free world you have a jury of your peers determine the facts and you need to be found guilty beyond a reason of a doubt, or beyond a preponderance of evidence.

In FAA land, it’s the FAA that judges if the FAAs accusation was correct.

In many ways how the FAA operates is better described as a kangaroo court than a court of law with due process
 
Last edited:
BladeSlap said:
In most do the free world you have a jury of your peers determine the facts and you need to be found guilty beyond a reason of a doubt, or beyond a preponderance of evidence.
Click to expand...
The accuracy of this statement depends a great deal on your definition of "the free world."
 
NightSkyReader said:
Some insurance policies or rental agreements may require the PIC to be in the left seat.
Click to expand...
Right seat for many choppers, of course.

A friend owned an R44. His insurance required the left seat cyclic control be removed unless a CFI was in that seat.
 
Dana said:
Right seat for many choppers, of course.

A friend owned an R44. His insurance required the left seat cyclic control be removed unless a CFI was in that seat.
Click to expand...

Seeing how sensitive they are and mast bumping and all the other issues, I could see that


To CFI in a Robbie you also need 200hr of Robbie time.
 
Last edited:
timrb said:
The PIC can let a poodle fly the plane as long as he's willing to accept responsibility for the flight.

Tim
Click to expand...
Cruiser our standard poodle flys with me 99% of the time. He has approx 700 hrs.

There's no way in hell I am letting him fly the plane. He won't even get in the front seat! He really isn't that good of a co pilot either, like he does not help look for traffic.
IMG_0646.JPG

IMG_8977.JPG


Doesn't the student pilot have to be endorsed to have soloed to be able to fly the plane without a CFI?
 
Gary Ward said:
Doesn't the student pilot have to be endorsed to have soloed to be able to fly the plane without a CFI?
Click to expand...

Not unless the student is acting as PIC and in which case, he is illegally carrying a passenger. If he is simply flying with a friend or a pilot who offers him a ride and that friend or pilot allows him to sit in the left seat and lets him manipulate the controls, he isn't exercising his student pilot privileges. Any pilot could take a person up and let them do that, whether they had any training or not. However, the student cannot log that flight time, as he is not receiving dual instruction and cannot act as PIC without violating the no passenger as a student rule.
 
@Gary Ward what is the identity and purpose of that red behemoth of a vehicle in the background? It looks like it can pull a mountain and yet be comfortable enough to live in.
 
NightSkyReader said:
what is the identity and purpose of that red behemoth of a vehicle in the background?
Click to expand...

I think he owns it and post pictures of it to specifically turn me green with envy.... :lol:

All I had was worn out 3/4 ton van, and once we broke down and had to be towed the rest of the way to the track...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top