(Student pilot) Cfi told me to lie on medx form

A

Anonymous5837

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I'm a college freshman pursuing a degree in aviation in hopes of becoming an airline pilot.
I'm currently extremely woried that I will face criminal charges and change carrier paths because of not disclosing past medical diagnoses / issues. I started flight training a couple of months ago and on the second day with my instructor we went through the process of filling out my student pilot license application on iacra, and my medxpress form. We got to the page where you have to disclose prior medical information and i told him that i had been previously diagnosed with anxiety and depression about 6 years ago when i was in middle school. I asked if I need to disclose it and he said since it was that long ago I didn't need to disclose it and that it would be fine to put none for the mental disorders section saying, "you don't want to give them any reason to deny you". Since i was getting that advice from someone who i considered to be knowledgeable about the subject i just asummed what he said was true and put none. I didn't even read the part on the form that says specifically "if at any point in your life". I just asummed since I was asking my cfi questions about the form as i was going through it, and the fact that he said everything in it was okay, that I wasn't doing anything wrong.

I got reminded of this because a friend of a friend saying he had to change majors any from aviation because he took adhd meds. I decided to look further into the rules about psychological disorders and medicals, and found out that I was supposed to declare anxiety and depression on my 8500 8 form. After looking into it further i found out that not disclosing medical issues on your 8500 8, no matter how long ago they happened is a huge deal and can carry criminal charges depending on the severity.

I know that I'm the only one legally responsibly for what goes into that form, but still, why did my cfi tell me to lie on it? Because of the advice he gave me, im now in danger of bankrupting my family with a quarter million dollar fine and going to jail.

I already went in and passed the physical and had had my medical for more than a month, so i can't go back and fix it.

Do I need to consult a lawyer?
 
Yes, you are the responsible party, and this will be your mess to clean up, not the CFI. My suspicion is that the CFI was afraid of losing a student and therefore $ if you had answered truthfully. If that is the case then, IMO, the CFI should not only lose his/her job but should never work as a CFI again...maybe even have his/her pilot cert. revoked.
If it were me, I'd do the following:

1-Fire the CFI.
2-Report the matter to his/her boss.
3-You're right to worry about criminal charges so I would consult an atty concentrating in aviation law. Not only for the possibility of charges but if you have pre-paid tuition or lessons that you will most likely not be able to use you may be due a refund.
4-Simultaneously I'd consult an AME that specializes in cases like this, specifically Dr. Bruce Chien who pops up on this forum from time to time <http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/>. If anyone can help you at this point it will be Dr. Bruce. You may get other referrals as well.

You're young with not a lot of real-world experience. Not everyone you meet will have your best interests at heart. Best advice going forward...read any form or contract you are required to complete and sign thoroughly before you sign. Ask questions if you're unsure about anything...before you sign. Your reputation is on the line and, depending on the situation, possibly your money and freedom as well.
 
Anonymous5837 said:
…I know that I'm the only one legally responsibly for what goes into that form, but still, why did my cfi tell me to lie on it?…
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That’s a question for your CFI and their manager. Assume the CFI will lie in the response.

Suggest engaging with someone like Dr Bruce Chien on your best path forward to resolve the error. It could start with a voluntary surrender of existing certificates and restarting the process.
 
sorry this happened to you. This is going to be not fun.

step one. Reach out to Dr Chien. @bbchien Do this today.

Step two Fire your CFI.

step three Get a lawyer. And report to your university. There is likely an ombudsman of some sort. Right now it’s your word against theirs.

good luck.
 
rk911 said:
My suspicion is that the CFI was afraid of losing a student and therefore $ if you had answered truthfully. If that is the case then, IMO, the CFI should not only lose his/her job but should never work as a CFI again...maybe even have his/her pilot cert. revoked.
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That could be it. Or it could simply be because a lot of pilots think the FAA's process and policies around things like this is AFU, and their solution is to lie. I know pilots who think a "yes" to anything on the form spells doom, and so they chose to not disclose things that wouldn't even make the AME blink. And if course there are pilots who think it's perfectly acceptable to lie when the truth would "unjustly" prevent someone from flying.

Even around here, pilots are discouraged from seeking help or treatment that wouldn't affect their medical eligibility because, "the FAA sucks," and, "you never know," and other OWTs.

It's possible the CFI is such a pilot and was attempting to save this student from what he sees as unwarranted and unnecessary intrusion. I'm not saying it's right, but just that the motivation might not be all that malicious.
 
Lindberg said:
Or it could simply be because a lot of pilots think the FAA's process and policies around things like this is AFU, and their solution is to lie.
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This isn’t just a “pilots vs FAA” thing…lying is an acceptable activity for the convenience of an ever-increasing portion of the population.
 
What was the context of the conversation, it could have been more casual, don’t put what you don’t need to. It could have been a misunderstanding, you mentioned a teacher wanted to drug you up in school but wasn’t an official mental disorder. Or you went to a CFI and said hey I was looking at the medexpress application and I have this issue and that issue, and he said let’s make a plan to trick the system just put No and he helped you fill out the form. The later would be more lying than the others. I have found most CFI’s mention the medical part in the beginning because you cannot get very far in your training without a medical. Even a lie would red flag and you’d receive some letters in the mail so it would be very short lived and therefore it does not benefit the CFI to present wrong information to you.

On the other hand, you are an adult now, and you should read anything before putting your name on it. If you are likely to perform a cursory review and stamp your name on whatever comes in front of you because most people do that, in the interest of time, it’s boring or you’re lazy, that needs to be seriously considered and adjusted to suit the person you desire to become.

When it comes to medexpress and IACRA, only you are responsible for what’s on the form and there are consequences for knowingly or not knowingly having wrong information on those forms.
 
Also, You may bankrupt yourself but your family is not responsible for your criminal acts and monetary penalties.
 
Good luck you need some good advice from one of the Doctors on the forum to start with
 
While you're right to be concerned and should consult with one of the AME's mentioned and/or a lawyer, if you get out in front of it and report yourself before the FAA figures it out, you are unlikely to face any criminal charges. I would start with Dr. Bruce and see what he suggests. Be completely honest with him.
 
A couple key questions here are 1) who diagnosed you with depression and anxiety; and 2) did you take meds for it? and if so, for how long. Depending on the details, this might not be *that* bad to unwind, if the depression and anxiety were situation, and you either didn't take any drugs for it or only took them for a limited amount time.

If it was just a temporary thing and you haven't had on-going treatment or meds for it, the "I forgot" phrase is a viable excuse for something that happened in middle school that you didn't put down on the medical application. Still needs to be fixed, but again, it may not be that bad.

I'll also make a comment that I bet a substantial percentage of middle schooler's could be diagnosed with situational anxiety and/or depression if they encountered a doctor at the right time...
 
I really don't think you need to worry about any fine, particularly if you address the issue and resolve it with the FAA. You're smart to address it now so you don't have to worry about it rearing its ugly head once you've gone through all the training and expense of becoming a commercial pilot.

If there was such a thing as "CFI malpractice" it should apply in this situation.
 
For that matter, how many now-adults have no idea of what they may have been diagnosed with as a child or what medicines their parents made them take? "Here, take these 'vitamins'." "OK."
 
omg. Not another.

I am not normally a "something needs to be done' kind of guy but this is so common now that the word needs to be put out there, somehow.

I'm thinking a 20pt line at the top and bottom of each page like this:

"DO NOT LIE, OR MISLEAD, ABOUT ANYTHING ON THIS FORM!! IF YOU DO, YOU MAY NEVER GET TO FLY. YOU ARE AT RISK OF FINES AND SANCTIONS. IF YOU HAVE ANY HESITATION, STOP THIS EXAM AND WALK OUT NOW!"
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
omg. Not another.

I am not normally a "something needs to be done' kind of guy but this is so common now that the word needs to be put out there, somehow.

I'm thinking a 20pt line at the top and bottom of each page like this:

"DO NOT LIE, OR MISLEAD, ABOUT ANYTHING ON THIS FORM!! IF YOU DO, YOU MAY NEVER GET TO FLY. YOU ARE AT RISK OF FINES AND SANCTIONS. IF YOU HAVE ANY HESITATION, STOP THIS EXAM AND WALK OUT NOW!"
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"Sort of" good advice, but if you do that you lose the option to fly in Light Sport category, as I'm pretty sure that failure to complete the medical certification process is considered a denial. (I should check if that's actually correct.) It's better not to get in that position in the first place, and I still think the first step in that process falls on the responsibility of the first CFI.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
omg. Not another.

I am not normally a "something needs to be done' kind of guy but this is so common now that the word needs to be put out there, somehow.

I'm thinking a 20pt line at the top and bottom of each page like this:

"DO NOT LIE, OR MISLEAD, ABOUT ANYTHING ON THIS FORM!! IF YOU DO, YOU MAY NEVER GET TO FLY. YOU ARE AT RISK OF FINES AND SANCTIONS. IF YOU HAVE ANY HESITATION, STOP THIS EXAM AND WALK OUT NOW!"
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there will be those who ask that someone explain this.
 
Many people were diagnosed with ADHD/anxiety in school just because they could not sit still for 45 min in class; all for the convenience of the teachers/nurses at school, and for doctors to prescribe more pills. Now, these people must pay for others' mistakes with delays, runarounds, frustration, and lots of expenses, and prove they are in fact healthy.

I grew up in a country where none of this happened, and it was OK for a child to be restless during a 45 min lecture.

No wonder some people are not truthful when the system is unfair to them.
Why isn't the system helping these people? Not saying I have a solution, but maybe AOPA can develop one.
 
If whatever it was, was isolated to middle school, I’m surprised you even recall it…..
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
omg. Not another.

I am not normally a "something needs to be done' kind of guy but this is so common now that the word needs to be put out there, somehow.

I'm thinking a 20pt line at the top and bottom of each page like this:

"DO NOT LIE, OR MISLEAD, ABOUT ANYTHING ON THIS FORM!! IF YOU DO, YOU MAY NEVER GET TO FLY. YOU ARE AT RISK OF FINES AND SANCTIONS. IF YOU HAVE ANY HESITATION, STOP THIS EXAM AND WALK OUT NOW!"
Click to expand...

And then what would you say to these posters who still return here with the same scenarios?
 
MountainDude said:
Many people were diagnosed with ADHD/anxiety in school just because they could not sit still for 45 min in class; all for the convenience of the teachers/nurses at school, and for doctors to prescribe more pills. Now, these people must pay for others' mistakes with delays, runarounds, frustration, and lots of expenses, and prove they are in fact healthy.

I grew up in a country where none of this happened, and it was OK for a child to be restless during a 45 min lecture.

No wonder some people are not truthful when the system is unfair to them.
Why isn't the system helping these people? Not saying I have a solution, but maybe AOPA can develop one.
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Too much sugar in the American diet, keeps us fat and in the medical system, a perfect legal hamster wheel.
 
pilotrick said:
Man take a chill pill, and do nothing. Enjoy college flight training and an airline career. Nobody is going to get access to your medical records from when you were a child let alone look at them.
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Could be possible that issues when you were under age 18 years old are protected under a different set of privacy laws, if that is the case maybe your CFI saved you a bunch of headaches. Let’s see…
 
Yes, you are going to have a mess to clean up but no, you aren’t going to get fined or criminally charged. The FAA will just revoke your medical and you will have some long and expensive hoops to jump through before you get it back. Fines and criminal charges are for those who do it intentionally with full knowledge and then end up hurting someone innocent because of it. The FAA isn’t going to send you a fine or put you in jail because you were given bad advice by your CFI about a medical condition you had as a kid. They will just revoke your medical and make it difficult to get it back.
 
And in any correspondence (lawyer-guided) I'd be tempted to mention the CFI by name and cert number. It could be a "thing" at that school to keep from losing students.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
And in any correspondence (lawyer-guided) I'd be tempted to mention the CFI by name and cert number. It could be a "thing" at that school to keep from losing students.
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"Tempted" yes, but that's why "guided." A matter of strategy and tactics - will it help, hurt, or be neutral? I knew a guy who insisted the AME, now deceased, told him to say "no" to a "yes" question.
 
midlifeflyer said:
"Tempted" yes, but that's why "guided." A matter of strategy and tactics - will it help, hurt, or be neutral? I knew a guy who insisted the AME, now deceased, told him to say "no" to a "yes" question.
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Blaming a dead person? Brilliant.
 
Half Fast said:
In that case, it seems like a pointless question.
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No. It was a legitimate question. Do you think that asking, for example, whether one has ever had cancer ir a criminal conviction, is pointless just because the additional information filling out the answer results in a pass or a Special Issuance?

This is one of the major problems with the value of the thoughts of SGOTI on these types of issues - the absence of detailed information a professional would obtain before giving advice. It's understandable of course. We often make snap judgments based on limited data without understanding the full picture. I do too when I'm not being consulted professionally.
 
midlifeflyer said:
No. It was a legitimate question. Do you think that asking, for example, whether one has ever had cancer ir a criminal conviction, is pointless just because the additional information filling out the answer results in a pass or a Special Issuance?

This is one of the major problems with the value of the thoughts of SGOTI on these types of issues - the absence of detailed information a professional would obtain before giving advice. It's understandable of course. We often make snap judgments based on limited data without understanding the full picture. I do too when I'm not being consulted professionally.
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Yes, I think it’s pointless. The AME is not treating or advising a patient. The AME is determining whether a pilot is sufficiently healthy to fly safely. If the AME’s determination will be the same regardless of the answer to a question, the question does not need to be asked.
 
Half Fast said:
Yes, I think it’s pointless. The AME is not treating or advising a patient. The AME is determining whether a pilot is sufficiently healthy to fly safely. If the AME’s determination will be the same regardless of the answer to a question, the question does not need to be asked.
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Some people who have had cancer are certifiable, some are not. Some who have hypertension are certifiable, some are not. Some who have been arrested for DUI are certifiable, some are not. These are screening questions that direct the inquiry and may lead to more questions.
 
Half Fast said:
Yes, I think it’s pointless. The AME is not treating or advising a patient. The AME is determining whether a pilot is sufficiently healthy to fly safely. If the AME’s determination will be the same regardless of the answer to a question, the question does not need to be asked.
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Sounds like you think all questions pointless unless the only possible result is denial. That's ok. I'm just glad my AME didn't feel that way when I had a deniable condition,
 
Lindberg said:
Some people who have had cancer are certifiable, some are not. Some who have hypertension are certifiable, some are not. Some who have been arrested for DUI are certifiable, some are not. These are screening questions that direct the inquiry and may lead to more questions.
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Agreed.

But that's not the situation @midlifeflyer described. What he wrote was, "Weird part was, there was no reason to say no. The application would have approved with a yes answer."

He's describing something where the medical would be approved regardless of whether the answer was yes or no. If that's truly the case (doubtful), then the question is pointless. If a yes answer leads to more investigation which could result in either an approval or a denial, then the question has merit. But that's not the situation he presented, hence my response.
 
Half Fast said:
Agreed.

But that's not the situation @midlifeflyer described. What he wrote was, "Weird part was, there was no reason to say no. The application would have approved with a yes answer."

He's describing something where the medical would be approved regardless of whether the answer was yes or no. If that's truly the case (doubtful), then the question is pointless. If a yes answer leads to more investigation which could result in either an approval or a denial, then the question has merit. But that's not the situation he presented, hence my response.
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It is truly the case and I (intentionally) didn't enough information for anyone to know what the situation was, hence my comment about the problem with SGOTI advice :D
 
Half Fast said:
Agreed.

But that's not the situation @midlifeflyer described. What he wrote was, "Weird part was, there was no reason to say no. The application would have approved with a yes answer."

He's describing something where the medical would be approved regardless of whether the answer was yes or no. If that's truly the case (doubtful), then the question is pointless. If a yes answer leads to more investigation which could result in either an approval or a denial, then the question has merit. But that's not the situation he presented, hence my response.
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Is it possible approved w/‘yes’ is an SI and approved w/‘no’ is issued in office?

I know nothing about Mark’s case.
 
mandm said:
Too much sugar in the American diet, keeps us fat and in the medical system, a perfect legal hamster wheel.
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remember the old food pyramid? What a sham, 6 to 11 servings of bread, grain, pasta, and rice a day? That’s a sure route to diabetes and obesity.
 
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