Student pilot: 21 year old DUI, sober for 19 years, active in recovery

alcohol is a drug. Perhaps the FAA is referencing that?
 
ja_user said:
alcohol is a drug. Perhaps the FAA is referencing that?
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oh no, they have a clear distinction between the two. My request was for alcohol and they asked for such.
 
RussS said:
Am I the only one missing the drug references to an alcohol DUI thread? I don’t see anywhere where drug use is listed...why are you getting requests for illicit drug use? Is the whole story not told?
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The Alcohol and Drug, Initial doc asks for "past, present and future plans for alcohol or drug use" (emphasis mine). In my original submission to CAMI, I was honest and mentioned that I had used drugs before I got sober. The reviewer wanted more detailed information specific to that drug use. I was never arrested for any drug-related offenses.
 
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2020-08-26: Still waiting. Spoke with a friendly operator today who mentioned that my fax didn't appear to have been scanned in yet (three weeks later) but is with the Alcohol and Drug folks so they know it's there.

Had been hoping that there would be minimal time delta between the initial review and the follow-up documentation review. It was three weeks for my application and I'm now standing at three weeks for the follow-up. Still hoping for something sooner rather than later but also keeping my patience cap on as much as possible.

Operator David also told me that the medical certification office gets ~1,000 calls/day and there are 8 operators. Yikes.
 
I may be late to the party... your goal should be to avoid the HIMS program. The best way to do that is to retain a lawyer.

while not used, anecdotally, there is a federal regulation that would allow you to obtain an unrestricted medical. It makes sense to TRY that. I’d google and call a guy Joe LoRusso in Colorado and ask his opinion.
 
Tools said:
I may be late to the party... your goal should be to avoid the HIMS program. The best way to do that is to retain a lawyer.

while not used, anecdotally, there is a federal regulation that would allow you to obtain an unrestricted medical. It makes sense to TRY that. I’d google and call a guy Joe LoRusso in Colorado and ask his opinion.
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I would be very curious to hear about this other way for the poster to get a medical. Here is a link to the aviation attorney mentioned - https://www.lorussolegal.com/joseph
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
I would be very curious to hear about this other way for the poster to get a medical. Here is a link to the aviation attorney mentioned - https://www.lorussolegal.com/joseph
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Interested here, too.

Though these maybe famous last words, I have a good feeling about getting a 3rd class medical without HIMS. Of course I"d rather not go through HIMS given the expense and timeline but I know I'd like to hear more and I'm sure there are other hopeful individuals in similar situations who would also like to know the fed reg to which you're referring.
 
I would love to hear about this as well. I am already in the HIMS program, and while I am SUPER thrilled to finally be flying (Thank you Dr B), I would have loved to bypass the hoops, expense, and continued dog and pony show.
 
You guys should checkout the FAR AIM under the section for medical certificates. Apparently if you hire an attorney after having 2 years of provable sobriety you can get an unrestricted medical cert and skip the BS that is HIMS
 
The implication being that 67.107(a)(4) (and secs 207 and 307) are the operative statements? I think a key phrase would be “...satisfactory to the Federal Air Surgeon, of recovery, including...”

It all still depends on what the FAS considers “established clinical evidence,” I should think.

Might work for some people. I’m aiming to receive my 3rd class medical without lawyers given that a lot of times, when lawyers get involved, things go to **** pretty quickly.
 
allPrimes said:
I’m aiming to receive my 3rd class medical without lawyers given that a lot of times, when lawyers get involved, things go to **** pretty quickly.
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Good call. If the FAA is this hard to deal with when the airman cooperates, imagine how they get when it turns legal and adversarial. You can try to win the argument, or you can fly. Pick one.
 
FYI. The FAA has taken the stance that anyone diagnosed with Substance Dependence that receives a subsequent special issuance will be subject to LIFETIME monitoring. The frequency and nature of drug/alcohol testing is at the discretion of the issuing HIMS AME. The medical durations will also be limited to less than that of a normal issuance (6 months or so). Keep in mind these are people that have already completed the FAAs "gold standard" for substance dependence/abuse recovery, gone through years or monitoring, psychological testing, and group/individual recovery activities.

The change in policy was announced by the FAS. What do you think the chances are that he'll find someone's clinical evidence of recovery "satisfactory"?

This policy effectively negates the 2 years of abstinence exception in the FARs without going through the legally required rule making process to change the FARs. As long as CAMI maintains this stance, airmen with substance dependence are presented with false hope of ever receiving a normal issuance despite the letter of the FARs stating that it's possible.
 
ThatOtherGuy said:
FYI. The FAA has taken the stance that anyone diagnosed with Substance Dependence that receives a subsequent special issuance will be subject to LIFETIME monitoring. The frequency and nature of drug/alcohol testing is at the discretion of the issuing HIMS AME. The medical durations will also be limited to less than that of a normal issuance (6 months or so). Keep in mind these are people that have already completed the FAAs "gold standard" for substance dependence/abuse recovery, gone through years or monitoring, psychological testing, and group/individual recovery activities.

The change in policy was announced by the FAS. What do you think the chances are that he'll find someone's clinical evidence of recovery "satisfactory"?

This policy effectively negates the 2 years of abstinence exception in the FARs without going through the legally required rule making process to change the FARs. As long as CAMI maintains this stance, airmen with substance dependence are presented with false hope of ever receiving a normal issuance despite the letter of the FARs stating that it's possible.
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I think it’s complete bs. Why we insist on punishing people for life in this country is beyond my comprehension.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I think it’s complete bs. Why we insist on punishing people for life in this country is beyond my comprehension.
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The thing that I don't understand is how tightly regulated substance abuse is regarding even 3rd class medicals as compared to drivers licenses. As far as public safety is concerned, someone under the influence is a MUCH MORE significant threat going 70mph on a two-lane highway, passing within feet of head-on traffic, than a pilot drumming along in the empty (for the most part) sky. Just sayin......
 
KeepWatch said:
The thing that I don't understand is how tightly regulated substance abuse is regarding even 3rd class medicals as compared to drivers licenses. As far as public safety is concerned, someone under the influence is a MUCH MORE significant threat going 70mph on a two-lane highway, passing within feet of head-on traffic, than a pilot drumming along in the empty (for the most part) sky. Just sayin......
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Logic and being reasonable will not help you understand the FAA, especially aeromedical.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Logic and being reasonable will not help you understand the FAA, especially aeromedical.
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Don't I know it....... I still have rational questions pop into my head from time to time, but I have learned not to dwell on them. As the KGB fella always says in the movie Bridge of Spies, "Would it help?" No.
 
KeepWatch said:
The thing that I don't understand is how tightly regulated substance abuse is regarding even 3rd class medicals as compared to drivers licenses. As far as public safety is concerned, someone under the influence is a MUCH MORE significant threat going 70mph on a two-lane highway, passing within feet of head-on traffic, than a pilot drumming along in the empty (for the most part) sky. Just sayin......
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Before the pitchforks come out and torches get lit. I'm NOT advocating for no oversight of impaired pilots. Just reasonable and open oversight.

I agree with the analogy at a high level, but I think we're better served by removing the somewhat dubious comparison between automobiles and airplanes. There's plenty of evidence to indicate that people dying due to alcohol consuming pilots is not a statistically significant occurrence given the volume of operations that occur every year. If drunks were smashing airplanes into things at a significant rate we'd see the gory details elucidated by every talking head on the news. It's basically unheard of in commercial aviation and it's extremely rare in GA. One could make a valid argument that is due to the strong medical oversight like we're discussing. I tend to believe the "buddy system" in commercial aviation, and a strong self preservation instinct for GA passengers and pilots is also a factor. That's just a hunch based on the number of times you hear about TSA or fellow crew member flagging a 121 pilot when reporting for duty wear O De Budweiser after a late night out. If these guys are impaired and they're caught getting in the cockpit of any airplane they need to be pulled out of circulation and get help. If they don't want the help, that's fine too, but they shouldn't be anywhere near aviation.

It's true that if we ground everyone that ever had a even the slightest indication of FAR defined alcohol abuse or dependence we'd have fewer accidents. A VERY large percentage of pilots would also never fly again. Remember the FAR definition of substance abuse or dependence is MUCH more strict than the definition used by the medical community. I think the real question becomes one of diminishing returns. We could bring it down to zero if we required abstinence from all pilots, but zero accidents and total abstinence isn't a realistic goal. There's always going to be that contingent of people that won't follow any rules and do stupid things. Those guys aren't disclosing on the medical. If they do disclose and try to game the system in HIMS they will end up washed out of the program. There's plenty of evidence of pilots on impairing meds they didn't disclose on the medical and shouldn't have been flying under the influence of.

The most commonly found drug in pilots post fatality? OTC Diphenhydramine, the active ingredient in Benadryl. Ironically something used as a sleep aid when the industry has been talking for decades about the inadequate crew rest requirements faced by commercial pilots. Maybe it's related, maybe it isn't. Data should be the basis for these decisions, not emotion or political agenda. Here's interesting info for the scientifically minded:

AOPA "NON-COMMERCIAL FIXED-WING GENERAL AVIATION ACCIDENT DATA"
FAA "Drugs and Alcohol in Civil Aviation Accident Pilot Fatalities From 2004-2008"
Aviation, Space, and Environmental Medicine "Alcohol Violations and Aviation Accidents: Findings from the U.S. Mandatory Alcohol Testing Program"

None of us want people flying drunk or high. We also don't want an "arbitrary and capricious" system of unpublished regulations. Especially when those regulations are established by unaccountable bureaucrats whos guiding principal is to make sure they employ CYA without regard to the impact on freedoms and liberties in pursuit of unobtainable goals. There's plenty of data out there for the interested parties to come to their own conclusions.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I think it’s complete bs. Why we insist on punishing people for life in this country is beyond my comprehension.
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It's all about law and order as well as control.

One strike and you're out.

As some would say, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime".
 
allPrimes said:
2020-08-26: Still waiting. Spoke with a friendly operator today who mentioned that my fax didn't appear to have been scanned in yet (three weeks later) but is with the Alcohol and Drug folks so they know it's there..
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Typical government last century aspect. Take a digital transmission, print it out, and scan it back in. I'm sure they'll make three copies and burn two.
 
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ThatOtherGuy said:
FYI. The FAA has taken the stance that anyone diagnosed with Substance Dependence that receives a subsequent special issuance will be subject to LIFETIME monitoring. The frequency and nature of drug/alcohol testing is at the discretion of the issuing HIMS AME. The medical durations will also be limited to less than that of a normal issuance (6 months or so). Keep in mind these are people that have already completed the FAAs "gold standard" for substance dependence/abuse recovery, gone through years or monitoring, psychological testing, and group/individual recovery activities.
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Although not entirely unexpected, I learned on Thursday from the RFS in Des Moines, WA, that I will be denied a 3rd class medical with the option of going into the HIMS program if I'd like. I've chosen that route and, with the help of @bbchien have identified a HIMS AME near me (in the BFE) with whom I can work. I have yet to receive my denial letter but that HIMS AME reached out to FAA CAMI to learn if the onerousness of my HIMS protocols will be as severe as some other prosepctive or existing pilots. I learned that no, it won't be. At a minimum, I won't have to see a HIMS Psychiatrist and that the FAA only wants to make sure that I didn't fry my brain while I was drinking. As a result, I'll only have to go through the HIMS neuro exam along with the regular HIMS AME check-ins. Further, my HIMS AME suggested I get on a regimen of two random drug and alcohol screens/month and log my AA attendance. First random exam was today and my friends in the rooms are looking at me strangely when I drop my to-be-signed log in the 7th tradition basket. Should be an interesting adventure into the bureaucracy that is the FAA.

With the guidance of my CFI, I'll be dropping my lessons from twice/week to twice/month. Hopefully, by the time the 3rd class SI comes through, I'll only have to knock off the solo flights and checkride.

Though not entirely the result I wanted, there's still a path forward and given I've waited the bulk of my life to get to this point, a few more months really isn't that big of a deal.
 
I figured this is where you would end up, and it's a bonus not to have to do the HIMS Psychiatrist evaluation. And I would assume since there is no evaluation, you also won't be required to do an annual visit with a HIMS Psych. That's good too; those are not cheap.

Have fun with the Neuro screen. I'm sure you'll read up on it, but the most important thing is to get a lot of sleep the night before.
 
KeepWatch said:
I figured this is where you would end up, and it's a bonus not to have to do the HIMS Psychiatrist evaluation. And I would assume since there is no evaluation, you also won't be required to do an annual visit with a HIMS Psych. That's good too; those are not cheap.

Have fun with the Neuro screen. I'm sure you'll read up on it, but the most important thing is to get a lot of sleep the night before.
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After reading so much between application date (2020-07-06) and last Thursday (2020-09-10), I had the same suspicion that I'd end up here too but I was hoping for the best.

I have the neuro scheduled for first week of October. Doc says there's "nothing you can really study for. Just get a good night's sleep and get some food in you before hand." Planning on a full day: 0730-1600 or so. Should be fun.

And yeah, not having the psych exam will mean I'll save about $2,400 but the neuropsych is going to cost a flat fee of $3,600. :eek2:
 
...our FAA medical process is so broken...

You've got an OP here who has gone 19 years!! (that's awesome) sober demonstrating awareness, self control, reconciliation, etc. In the meantime.. how many dangerous pilots are out there who may be uncaught/undiagnosed alcoholics, people who lie on medicals, or people who simple don't go to the doctor..??

Do we actually have any insight how many aviation fatalities happen (or are prevented) based on the FAA's med screening process? Very few professions require this level of scrutiny. There was the German Wings (?) crash from the suicidal pilot.. one dude. Have there been others? With the FAAs draconian approach to medicals you'd think it was the number one cause of aviation accidents. If only our POS 1940s engine tech got this much scrutiny


anyway.. good luck to the OP, thanks for posting here and keeping us up to date!
 
One of my buddies wants to learn to fly. The guy literally got a DUI on this 21st birthday and then got scared straight. He never drinks when we're out and I believe him when he says he didn't drink before he was 21 and doesn't drink since. I'm pretty sure that a single night does not constitute tolerance, but he would be on HIMS monitoring forever. He says it's not worth it and bought a boat.
 
Tantalum said:
...our FAA medical process is so broken...

You've got an OP here who has gone 19 years!! (that's awesome) sober demonstrating awareness, self control, reconciliation, etc. In the meantime.. how many dangerous pilots are out there who may be uncaught/undiagnosed alcoholics, people who lie on medicals, or people who simple don't go to the doctor..??

Do we actually have any insight how many aviation fatalities happen (or are prevented) based on the FAA's med screening process? Very few professions require this level of scrutiny. There was the German Wings (?) crash from the suicidal pilot.. one dude. Have there been others? With the FAAs draconian approach to medicals you'd think it was the number one cause of aviation accidents. If only our POS 1940s engine tech got this much scrutiny


anyway.. good luck to the OP, thanks for posting here and keeping us up to date!
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Agreed, but to pick a nit. The Germanwings pilot had a 1st class medical so it didn't work there either. It's just another data point that the system doesn't work. It's all pain, no gain.

Also agree... great job for the OP.
 
jbarrass said:
Agreed, but to pick a nit. The Germanwings pilot had a 1st class medical so it didn't work there either. It's just another data point that the system doesn't work. It's all pain, no gain.

Also agree... great job for the OP.
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The Germans could’ve avoided what happened if they required 2 people in the cockpits at all times. They changed that rule after the German wings crash. But you’re right, the system is an absolute joke.
 
jbarrass said:
Agreed, but to pick a nit. The Germanwings pilot had a 1st class medical so it didn't work there either. It's just another data point that the system doesn't work. It's all pain, no gain.

Also agree... great job for the OP.
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No, Andreas Lubitz did not have a first class. This SI had expired about nine months prior. Get your facts right John, as in A DL license medical is coming (posted back in 2011)…..

but you are correct that the system is just as nearly to broken as it can be WITHOUT being actually totally broken. See: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/3rd-class-si-stuck-in-hims.128395/
 
I should be horrified that the FAA needs to scan documents that are sent electronically. But I'm not. Got to keep those GS-2's busy.
Even the DOD & NASA and so many other Federal stuff are onboard with electronic documents. Days of filling out that monstrous SF-86 by hand is long past.
 
murphey said:
I should be horrified that the FAA needs to scan documents that are sent electronically. But I'm not. Got to keep those GS-2's busy.
Even the DOD & NASA and so many other Federal stuff are onboard with electronic documents. Days of filling out that monstrous SF-86 by hand is long past.
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A friend was complaining today that Social Security cannot accept things electronically - only fax or regular mail. And that includes Medicare.
 
I learned I was being denied outright a 3rd class medical exam two weeks ago (2020-09-10) but received the letter from the FAA today. Pages one and two (deidentified) below, if you're curious.


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Definitely could have been more onerous--and I've seen the onerous versions of this letter. At a minimum, the good things are: 1. I have the HIMS AME identified and have already begun working with them, b. I only have to do the neuropsych, iii. I have an appointment with the FAA neuropsych scheduled for 10/5, d. I have already faxed requests for medical records to be sent to the HIMS AME and the neuropsych (and myself), and 5. I'm patient. The next few months should just be a waiting game.

Training is ongoing (twice/month instead of twice/week) and is still a ton of fun. My CFI and I have plans to keep doing dual at a similar twice/month rate until I get my medical. If I meet the minimum reqs for PPL dual before the medical comes, we'll just start doing dedicated instrument dual. I keep dreaming about buying a plane after I receive my PPL.

I'm confident the medical will come. Now it's just a matter of patience.

Happy Thursday!

EDIT: WOW the pages came in big. Sorry.
 
Good deal. Hopefully the records get out soon. I've had fast processing; I've had slow processing. All depends on.......... not really sure.
 
KeepWatch said:
Good deal. Hopefully the records get out soon. I've had fast processing; I've had slow processing. All depends on.......... not really sure.
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2020-10-01: I called CAMI today to make sure they had received the fax I sent regarding release of my FAA airman medical records to my HIMS AME, neuropsych, and myself. They had, and when I asked Tammy how long the processing of those release forms and subsequent mailings take, she said that the department that handles that portion has caught up on a lot of their backlog and that "they're doing their best to get the records out a few weeks after they get the form."

We'll see.

Meeting with the neuropsychologist on Monday in Boise. I've never been to Boise.
 
My records took four months earlier this year, so I wouldn't hold your breath. They gave me the same "few weeks" story.

Curious though - why a denial with instructions for reconsideration instead of a regular deferral demand letter?
 
Anonymous said:
My records took four months earlier this year, so I wouldn't hold your breath. They gave me the same "few weeks" story.
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Thanks for the heads up.

Anonymous said:
Curious though - why a denial with instructions for reconsideration instead of a regular deferral demand letter?
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I had been through the demand process back in August. Original application for 3rd class was deferred in early July, they asked for additional information at the end of July, and denied me in mid-Sept with the letter and reconsideration instructions above.
 
jstone said:
You guys should checkout the FAR AIM under the section for medical certificates. Apparently if you hire an attorney after having 2 years of provable sobriety you can get an unrestricted medical cert and skip the BS that is HIMS
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More bad advice...which depends on "cases".
 
jstone said:
You guys should checkout the FAR AIM under the section for medical certificates. Apparently if you hire an attorney after having 2 years of provable sobriety you can get an unrestricted medical cert and skip the BS that is HIMS
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Don't forget to check out these sections of the FAR:

(b) No other organic, functional, or structural disease, defect, or limitation that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on the case history and appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the condition involved, finds—

(1) Makes the person unable to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held; or

(2) May reasonably be expected, for the maximum duration of the airman medical certificate applied for or held, to make the person unable to perform those duties or exercise those privileges.

(c) No medication or other treatment that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on the case history and appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the medication or other treatment involved, finds—

(1) Makes the person unable to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held; or

(2) May reasonably be expected, for the maximum duration of the airman medical certificate applied for or held, to make the person unable to perform those duties or exercise those privileges.


https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...789d9072&mc=true&node=se14.2.67_1113&rgn=div8

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...789d9072&mc=true&node=se14.2.67_1213&rgn=div8

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...789d9072&mc=true&node=se14.2.67_1313&rgn=div8
​
I'm no expert, but that looks like pretty broad authority on the part of the Federal Air Surgeon.
 
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