Student Landings

dcat127

dcat127

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I am a student pilot with around 40 hours. My landings are still not as good as I wish. I recently purchased a GoPro camera, which has been helpful in reviewing exactly what I am doing wrong. My biggest problem is occasionally touching down with the nose too low. Sportys course on landings says that "the nose wheel should be well away" at touchdown...doesn't really tell me much. On the my landings that I am calling "good", I see the mains touchdown while the nose wheel is still about 1-2" off the runway. Can anyone put a number on what would be the perfect pitch attitude at touchdown?
 
There is no ‘number’ for the best pitch attitude at touchdown.

Focus on getting the airplane a foot or so above the runway and just hold it off in a flat attitude until it starts to run out of energy and then begin to ease back on the yoke so the main’s touch the pavement before the nose wheel.
 
There is no perfect number. Varies from model to model and even somewhat from airframe to airframe even if the same model. Landing isn't always paint by numbers. It will get you close, but at some point, you gotta color without the lines.
 
A lot of times ppl get over the numbers. They get into ground effect and just freeze as far as elevator control. Even if your flared ok over the numbers or even a bit flat. As the airplane tries to slow down. Without more elevator input the nose is going to want to go down to try to maintain the airspeed your trimmed for. Hence the feeling like it’s all good and you wait for it via inaction then wham you are on the nosegear.
You got to keep slowly pulling back on the yoke as you slow the plane down to maintain that flared attitude. Elevator authority gets muddier the slower you get. Expect that. Look for that feeling.
Jerk it took quick and you are going to rise up and then fall quick-no bueno
 
What kind of airplane?
 
Dcat, you are looking for consistently safe, it's ok to strive for perfect, but understand there is always something to mess you up. It's kind of like docking a boat. You line it up perfectly and that gust of wind or boat wake messes you up.

Here is what I learned. (I'm not a CFI, so remember that).

You need to see the runway and where you are height wise, in other words don't drive it into the runway, don't drop it in from 10 feet over the runway.

Hold the centerline on landing, more importantly, keep the airplane aligned longitudinally to the runway, use the rudder for this, sometimes you need to dance. I find that if you land with the nose even slightly pointed away from the direction of travel, your landing will feel like crap. It's not good for the airplane either.

Next, keep that nose up, stay in the flare attitude, don't get impatient, land on the mains first, always. As you slow you need more back pressure. Never try to cheat it onto the runway by releasing pressure, or really bad, putting the nose down. If you bounce, see how high you go, if it's just a few inches, keep the nose up, don't let it drop, reland. If it's more than a slight bounce, go around.

Crosswind, I crab, then sideslip, don't forget to maintain the correction in the flare, don't let it out, in fact if you are a little fast you will probably need to increase the slip as you slow down, remember the rudder as you increase aileron. Keep the controls in after you land.

Everybody has crappy landings, just be safe.
 
dcat127 said:
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I don’t see anything noticeably bad with that. It’s a little flat, but nothing major. Keep holding a bit more aft yoke and you’ll be golden.
 
And one that I am not happy with as well.
 
dcat127 said:
And one that I am not happy with as well.
Click to expand...
Same thing, only you started to porpoise on that one. You’re setting it down too soon and too fast and that’s what’s contributing to them being so flat. Hold it off and let the airplane run out of energy. It will stop flying when it’s ready.
 
" if you land with the nose even slightly pointed away from the direction of travel, your landing will feel like crap. It's not good for the airplane either."

Don't tell any of my many wheelchair pilots that.

Bob Gardner
 
The #1 cause for not getting nose-high landings is too-high an approach speed. Then the tendency is to paste it on before you run out of runway. Nail the approach speed at the POH value, the as others have mentioned, round out and then just keep holding off the nose until the mains touch first. If you didn't carry too much speed on the approach, you won't have to wait forever for the energy to dissipate. Make sure you trim out (neutralize) the yoke force once you establish the proper final approach speed, so you are not fighting the control wheel down final and through the flare. If you do it right, you can land on the mains and hold the nose wheel up during rollout until you run out of elevator, taking advantage of "free" aero-braking. Getting it just right takes practice and learning the sight cues. I'm still trying to get it perfect after 36 years! And every time you get in a new plane, it's a little bit different.
 
dmspilot said:
What flap setting do you use? 40°?
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Good Question,.
Full Flaps, power off, forward CG in a Cessna, it might not be possible to get the nose much higher than that.
Might Need either less flaps, more power, or further aft CG to get the nose higher.
It wheel is nearly all the way back as you touch down you aren't going to do any better. Also if the stall warning squeaks a bit just before you touch down you aren't going to do much better.

Also remember the nose strut is fully extended. so the nose may be higher than it looks by just looking at the nose wheel distance to the ground.

Brian
 
You might also try holding the airplane about just a bit higher off the runway so it doesn't touch before you are ready. When you get that sinking feeling, pull back to stop it.
like other have said you need to continuously be adding back pressure as the plane slows down.
Brian
 
Even the bad landing was not that bad. Seriously.

You've got good advice here, but honestly, I think you need to stop thinking about it. You're more than good enough to not hurt anyone or the plane IMO. You're a little fast over the numbers, so you're having to slow down in ground effect, which makes it more likely for something to go wrong since there's more time involved. So getting the speed down a little will make it easier, but "don't let it land", "don't let it land" keep pulling back and not letting it land until it lands is what you're doing for the most part. I don't see a problem. (not an instructor)
 
dcat127 said:
And one that I am not happy with as well.
Click to expand...

Watch the yoke on this one. You touch down, bounce up, then lower the nose to get back on the ground, you do it at least twice. Classic porpoise, you will have a prop strike if you keep doing that. Keep that stick back, resist the urge to push it forward. If you bounce too high, or are eating up too much runway waiting for it to settle, then go around.
 
dcat127 said:
Can anyone put a number on what would be the perfect pitch attitude at touchdown
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unfortunately you can't really do that. That's going to depend on how heavy the airplane is, atmospheric conditions, a number of factors. Incidentally this brings up a good point, I think a lot of people get mired in the numbers and pedantic when it comes to flying, at some point you also just have to develop a feel for the airplane. 40 hours is fairly green, if you're getting it down in one piece without bouncing down the runway you're off to a good start. Practice will make perfect!
 
Hard to know exactly without being there, but from what little those videos show (but obvious on the second one) I’d say the last few moments before touchdown still has some more energy that can be burned off. Keep the yoke back as your mains are touching down. Never push it onto the runway, let it settle.
 
Once you get close to the runway, say over the threshold, shift your eye focus down to the end of the runway and adjust your pitch attitude. Slowly pull the nose up while watching the nose position rise up to cover the end of the runway.

I spent a lot of years struggling with landings. This concept of shifting my eye focus to the end of the runway change everything for me. Yes, you still pick up visual clues in your peripheral vision, but concentrate on the end of the runway and the position of the nose.
 
My primary instructor also taught in taildraggers. He insisted on full-stall landings in the Cherokee 140. That training transitioned well when I started flying taildraggers. Pretend you're 3-pointing a taildragger.
 
TrueCourse said:
Hard to know exactly without being there, but from what little those videos show (but obvious on the second one) I’d say the last few moments before touchdown still has some more energy that can be burned off. Keep the yoke back as your mains are touching down. Never push it onto the runway, let it settle.
Click to expand...

The second video, he is like 53 short final, dropped to 47 in the flare, so I think his speed is ok. Just make sure the throttle is to idle and keep the nose wheel off the ground I think he'd be good.
 
My bad landings usually involve me not pulling back hard enough on the yoke towards the latter part of the flare. I find you need to apply considerable force shortly before touching down, and while you start to roll.
 
Thanks for everyone's comments. I suppose this has answered my real question...which really was: In my "good" landings is the nose-wheel barely high enough as well. Of which the answer like I expected appears to be yes...

Still wish someone was brave enough to give me a number like 3 - 13/16"
 
FastEddieB said:
If the yoke is all the way back when you touch down, the pitch will take care of itself.
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I will have to pay attention to it the next time I fly. But I am fairly sure that typically I do not have the elevator all the way back at touchdown.
 
dcat127 said:
Thanks for everyone's comments. I suppose this has answered my real question...which really was: In my "good" landings is the nose-wheel barely high enough as well. Of which the answer like I expected appears to be yes...

Still wish someone was brave enough to give me a number like 3 - 13/16"
Click to expand...

One of the hardest things to learn was what "just enough" was. How much rudder do I use on climb out? Just enough. How much throttle do I add when entering a steep turn? Just enough....

Keep it up and you'll be fine.
 
dcat127 said:
I am a student pilot with around 40 hours. My landings are still not as good as I wish. I recently purchased a GoPro camera, which has been helpful in reviewing exactly what I am doing wrong. My biggest problem is occasionally touching down with the nose too low. Sportys course on landings says that "the nose wheel should be well away" at touchdown...doesn't really tell me much. On the my landings that I am calling "good", I see the mains touchdown while the nose wheel is still about 1-2" off the runway. Can anyone put a number on what would be the perfect pitch attitude at touchdown?
Click to expand...

I've never seen a video from outside of one of my landings, but I'm pretty sure that in a Skyhawk or Cardinal, where I've got most of my experience, my nose wheel is a lot more than 1-2" off the runway when the mains touch down.

One or two inches of flare at touchdown sounds like a very flat landing to me.
 
dcat127 said:
I will have to pay attention to it the next time I fly. But I am fairly sure that typically I do not have the elevator all the way back at touchdown.
Click to expand...

Bear in mind, yoke all the way back is a goal - not something you’ll nail every time, but something you work towards.

If the yoke is not all the way back, you’re landing with extra speed and extra energy, both undesirable, especially if something goes wrong. It also means you could have held the plane off longer, which is a skill you learn.

I’ve been known to put little White-Out marks about every inch on the shaft the yoke attaches to. I would then judge a student’s landing by how many marks we saw on touchdown. Smoothness is secondary and can come later.

Another clue can be the stall warning horn, if equipped. It should be blaring. And a quick glance at the airspeed indicator right after landing. It should be right at, or even below, the bottom of the white arc in a full flap landing.

But don’t worry - it will all click soon.

Edited to add: where are you located?
 
FastEddieB said:
Another clue can be the stall warning horn, if equipped. It should be blaring.
Click to expand...
I do this too. The stall horn is a great "that's about right" sanity check indicator. Because the right speed for a landing is the slowest possible one, whatever that is.
It'll be different depending on the weight and CG and stuff. It'll look different out the window if there's wind. But the horn knows!
If it's not sounding yet, that means too fast and too nose-low. Don't let the mains touch until it sounds like you're part of a kazoo band.
 
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