Struggling with lazy 8s

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Daz

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Daz
Guys, really struggling to pull this together and would appreciate thoughts on how you begun to practice this. I’m thinking that I should just try to hit certain targets at each point and then just try to smooth out the transition to each target. Straight from the handbook shows 15 degrees at 45, 30 at 90, 15 at 135. Question is what should be my target pitch? I’m thinking 10 degrees up and 7 down. Any thoughts here? This is driving me mental...........
 
Daz said:
Guys, really struggling to pull this together and would appreciate thoughts on how you begun to practice this. I’m thinking that I should just try to hit certain targets at each point and then just try to smooth out the transition to each target. Straight from the handbook shows 15 degrees at 45, 30 at 90, 15 at 135. Question is what should be my target pitch? I’m thinking 10 degrees up and 7 down. Any thoughts here? This is driving me mental...........
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I had similar issues when I was working on my Commercial. Fun lazy 8’s are pulling up, doing a wingover type of thing, coming downhill, and then doing it again but wingovering (<- probably not a real word) to the other side. The commercial manuever lazy 8 has very little to do with this. It’s a boring, fairly useless manuever in my opinion. That being said, you’re on the right track regarding flying to the targets. Think of it as precisely flying the path in the sky deliniated by the target points. The following link helped me: https://www.cfinotebook.net/notebook/maneuvers-and-procedures/airborne/lazy-eights

It’s boring, it’s dumb, and it’s required. Don’t worry that the whole thing seems contrived — it is. Just go practice flying that path, and you’ll get it. Stay away from any acrobatic books which talk about the lazy eight. That’s the fun one, and the commercial maneuver isn’t that!

As a side note, the instructor I worked with on my commercial had the hardest time demonstrating the lazy eight to me. He owns and flys a T-6 Texan and does acro. He kept exceeding the pitch and bank limits. That was my problem too. We finally came to the just precisely fly the path approach. Boring, but it works.
 
jimhorner said:
I had similar issues when I was working on my Commercial. Fun lazy 8’s are pulling up, doing a wingover type of thing, coming downhill, and then doing it again but wingovering (<- probably not a real word) to the other side. The commercial manuever lazy 8 has very little to do with this. It’s a boring, fairly useless manuever in my opinion. That being said, you’re on the right track regarding flying to the targets. Think of it as precisely flying the path in the sky deliniated by the target points. The following link helped me: https://www.cfinotebook.net/notebook/maneuvers-and-procedures/airborne/lazy-eights

It’s boring, it’s dumb, and it’s required. Don’t worry that the whole thing seems contrived — it is. Just go practice flying that path, and you’ll get it. Stay away from any acrobatic books which talk about the lazy eight. That’s the fun one, and the commercial maneuver isn’t that!

As a side note, the instructor I worked with on my commercial had the hardest time demonstrating the lazy eight to me. He owns and flys a T-6 Texan and does acro. He kept exceeding the pitch and bank limits. That was my problem too. We finally came to the just precisely fly the path approach. Boring, but it works.
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Thanks Jim, very helpful. My instructor does the exact same as your instructor too. Sounds like I need to spend a little more time actually looking outside the window and trying to fly the path approach as opposed to staring at the instruments to hit the targets.
 
Its like anything once u understand what needs to be done you then get a feel for it. Making sure u master it is what its all about. I did better without an instructor in the plane trying to master some of the maneuvers this was one. I wrote down what the airplane flying handbook says and and spewed it out from memory while performing this one for the DPE. This took some practice.. comm checkride advice read the ACS it spells everything out. No one including my instructor was impressed but i got through the ride....
 
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Daz said:
Thanks Jim, very helpful. My instructor does the exact same as your instructor too. Sounds like I need to spend a little more time actually looking outside the window and trying to fly the path approach as opposed to staring at the instruments to hit the targets.
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Yeah about keeping the eyes outside. The commercial manuevers are primarily visual reference manuevers. Since many people go on the the commercial right after the instrument rating, the habit is more to fly by reference to instruments. Much better to fly with eyes out and only occasionally glance at the instruments.

Oh, and once you get your commercial, go rent an aerobatic plane and have some real fun!
 
jimhorner said:
Yeah about keeping the eyes outside. The commercial manuevers are primarily visual reference manuevers. Since many people go on the the commercial right after the instrument rating, the habit is more to fly by reference to instruments. Much better to fly with eyes out and only occasionally glance at the instruments.

Oh, and once you get your commercial, go rent an aerobatic plane and have some real fun!
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Yup, you got me. I went straight in after instrument rating. Forgot how beautiful it is outside :)
 
Wingovers are fun and easy if you take them to 60º of bank or so.

If you're used to that, Lazy-8's are long, drawn out affairs. I have the most trouble on the second half, and specifically the final quarter, as it seems to take forever to get the wings back to level as the pitch comes back to neutral.

I went out and tried them a while back in the Sky Arrow and I think you can see what I mean (starting at about :46 in)

 
Don’t worry about the degrees of pitch, the plane will tell you when it wants to drop the nose and when to start slowly pitching up.
 
The other thing about the commercial manuevers is the requirement to slow to Va prior to doing them. A chandelle starting at 140mph is a lot less fun than one at 200mph. And did I mention that commercial lazy eights are boring? Maximum bank 30 degrees and Va? Ugh.

Spirals, emergency descents, and turns about points are fun though.
 
I am not an instructor. otherwise I’d tell you how to do the maneuver. :)

btw, I did the maneuvers over a road, I found that easier than picking reference points way out yonder.
 
I found the biggest help for me was to explicitly look out the window at the next point on the 45, 90, 135, and 180.

You can then easily judge how it is going halfway to each and know how to adjust.

That said it is necessary to move back and forth between outside and inside and do these checks.

Check altitude gain at the 45 point and then make adjustment for the pitch down that will be needed.

First get the habit of looking at the points and how it feels. Then start adjusting for the numbers.
 
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Trying decide between 7 degrees or 10 degrees of pitch might be part of the problem. I can't say I ever measured my pitch on a lazy eight or if I did I don't remember what it was. The FAA wants within 5-10 knots of stall speed at the slowest point.

John King has a good explanation on the Comm/CFI maneuvers video but it's consistent with the tips being given by others in this thread already. Biggest thing is picking checkpoints every 45° and monitoring your progress, and not rushing the maneuver (especially the first 20° and last 20° which take a looong time).
 
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FastEddieB said:
If that worked for you, great!

But it is NOT a ground reference maneuver, and trying to make it one can make it more, not less, difficult.
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Well where are the ‘normal’ reference points? Aren’t they.......on the ground? Just far out on the horizon?
 
Not a CFI, but I think this is probably the most difficult commercial maneuver to perform consistently. My problem was over controlling the aircraft. It should be more or less a fingertip maneuver. I also struggled with eyes outside the cockpit. The concept of visual references makes sense, but in reality, the PTS is based on what the instruments say at various points during the maneuver. What worked for me was going out for a couple of hours solo and doing nothing but lazy 8s. They became much more intuitive and the appropriate pitch angles and power settings were easy to figure out. My CPL was done in an A36 and a DA40, both of which took about 15-20 degrees of pitch. Of course, the DPE didn’t ask for a lazy 8 on my check ride.

Also, the UND AeroCast video is good.
 
The Finer Points video is the one that made the maneuver click for me.
 
Wearing my CFI hat here: I recommend a "Comatose 8".

There is nothing the the airplane flying handbook that specifies the HEIGHT of the vertical profile. If you to it within a 400 foot vertical profile, stuff happens so slowly you will actually have time to look at your "cheat card: ("at the 45 degree point we have max pitch up which we hold and we have half bank. At the 90 degree point we full bank and full pitch and we start relaxing the vertical pitch AND the bank. At the 135 point we have full pitch down and half bank rolled out, and during the last 45 degrees we are relaxing the pitch down and rolling out of bank.") In fact thing happen so slow my Federal Inspector (I took my CFI ride with a FED) nearly went to sleep. When I was done (made spec, easily) he remarked, "mind if I demonstrate?" to which I said, "Clear right, your aircraft". He proceed to do a 60 degree left wingover and a 60 degree right wingover and ended up 300 low and 20 off cardinal. I tapped the altimeter and remarked "300 low, a bust. My airplane".

I passed.
That is your goal. PASS. A comatose 8 fulfills the definition in AC-8083. Plus you can do some faux teaching during this time.
 
It’s called lazy 8s for a reason. There’s not much you have to do to get the plane to do the maneuver on its own. Don’t worry about exact degrees of pitch. Lots of people over control and over think the maneuver. Just like spins, when in doubt, let go of the yoke and let the plane fix itself and slice through.
 
bbchien said:
Wearing my CFI hat here: I recommend a "Comatose 8".

There is nothing the the airplane flying handbook that specifies the HEIGHT of the vertical profile. If you to it within a 400 foot vertical profile, stuff happens so slowly you will actually have time to look at your "cheat card: ("at the 45 degree point we have max pitch up which we hold and we have half bank. At the 90 degree point we full bank and full pitch and we start relaxing the vertical pitch AND the bank. At the 135 point we have full pitch down and half bank rolled out, and during the last 45 degrees we are relaxing the pitch down and rolling out of bank.") In fact thing happen so slow my Federal Inspector (I took my CFI ride with a FED) nearly went to sleep. When I was done (made spec, easily) he remarked, "mind if I demonstrate?" to which I said, "Clear right, your aircraft". He proceed to do a 60 degree left wingover and a 60 degree right wingover and ended up 300 low and 20 off cardinal. I tapped the altimeter and remarked "300 low, a bust. My airplane".

I passed.
That is your goal. PASS. A comatose 8 fulfills the definition in AC-8083. Plus you can do some faux teaching during this time.
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I agree completely with Bruce. A 400ft altitude gain is pretty typical. The power setting used for continuous eights might be a bit different than what you start at Va speed/Entry Speed. A 10-12 degree pitch up is also pretty typical.

There is lot going during an FAA Lazy Eight. What you do now, will affect what the plane is doing 45 degrees later in the turn. So you need to do a lot of lazy eights so you can learn what happens when you bank a bit to slowy or to quickly. Same with how different rates of pitching change each of the points of the maneuver. The maneuver demonstrates how airspeed changes affect turn rate. Using visual references for each 45 degrees bank works better than trying to use a heading indicator. Using the attitude indicator for angle of Bank and monitoring the max pitch up angle can also be helpful. But mostly you need to do about 50 or more lazy eights so you can make minor corrections and understand how the correction Wil affect the maneuver 45 degrees later in the turn. The more you do them more you get to know how your airplane reacts to fine control inputs. I do like the Bruces “comatose 8’s” definition. Most people want to do them to aggressively.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Not much to add to all of the excellent advice above. But, to enhance the "look out the window" practice, you could even throw a towel over the panel instruments in front of you for a few turns.
 
I had similar issues until I did a few with my instructor to find the right power setting and then just let them be lazy. I don't think you're being graded on the precise checkpoints, and you might not even have it on your ride.
 
While it may not be a ground reference maneuver, I agree that starting the maneuver perpendicular to a road, power line, river, etc. makes the 45/90/135/180 reference points a no brainer.
 
jordane93 said:
It’s called lazy 8s for a reason.
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Yup...because the extended longitudinal access of the airplane scribes an eight lying on its side on the horizon. Unfortunately, even when that was in the AFH, nobody knew it. ;)

There’s not much you have to do to get the plane to do the maneuver on its own. Don’t worry about exact degrees of pitch. Lots of people over control and over think the maneuver. Just like spins, when in doubt, let go of the yoke and let the plane fix itself and slice through.
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That’s the biggest thing...let the airplane do the work.

Everybody I’ve ever worked with on lazy 8s (admittedly few) found it easier to use more pitch than they were.
 
snglecoil said:
While it may not be a ground reference maneuver, I agree that starting the maneuver perpendicular to a road, power line, river, etc. makes the 45/90/135/180 reference points a no brainer.
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I think the proper reference is a point on the horizon. If there’s any crosswind, forcing the plane to align with nearby references can adversely affect the symmetry of the ♾ the nose is supposed to “draw” on the reference point.

But if the perpendicular road thing works for you, have at it!
 
Jason Miller of the Finer Points has a great video on making it easy by getting out of the way of the airplane.


I teach basically this method. I see no need to have all the 45, 90, 135 degree points, that just complicates things. I pick a 90 degree point (for where the nose should be coming down through the horizon) but that's it - come on, you know when you're about halfway there, you don't need to find all these perfect points.

It's kind of like the 8's on pylons - you can overcomplicate the heck out of them or just do it mechanically and the result is the same.
 
FastEddieB said:
I think the proper reference is a point on the horizon.
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This is true...though I always found it curious that the Airplane Flying Handbook included an illustration showing the maneuver performed crossing a road :dunno: A DPE was actually the one that recommended that I teach it using a road. He said the specific reference wasn’t as critical as seeing that the maneuver was being performed with eyes outside the plane. His litmus test that the maneuver was flown improperly is when the nose falls through the horizon at the top of the turn.
 
RussR said:
Jason Miller of the Finer Points has a great video on making it easy by getting out of the way of the airplane.


I teach basically this method. I see no need to have all the 45, 90, 135 degree points, that just complicates things. I pick a 90 degree point (for where the nose should be coming down through the horizon) but that's it - come on, you know when you're about halfway there, you don't need to find all these perfect points.

It's kind of like the 8's on pylons - you can overcomplicate the heck out of them or just do it mechanically and the result is the same.
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I'm not an instructor, but I think not doing anything, as he demonstrates in the video, is key I think. It's not an aerobatic maneuver where you're trying to fly a particular path through the sky. My biggest problem starting out was definitely overcontrolling.
 
RussR said:
Jason Miller of the Finer Points has a great video on making it easy by getting out of the way of the airplane.


I teach basically this method. I see no need to have all the 45, 90, 135 degree points, that just complicates things. I pick a 90 degree point (for where the nose should be coming down through the horizon) but that's it - come on, you know when you're about halfway there, you don't need to find all these perfect points.

It's kind of like the 8's on pylons - you can overcomplicate the heck out of them or just do it mechanically and the result is the same.
Click to expand...

Yep, his video on Lazy 8s really made it click for me. I was tying to fly it by the formula described in the PHOAK. Pick reference points, bank 5 degrees, pitch up 5, until at the 45 degree marker, increase bank to 30 degrees and pull back yada yada yada. WAY too complicated.

Another thing that helped was to fly the whole thing slower. Like well inside the white arc. With lower airspeed all the control inputs are more gentle and slower. Pitch up/down rarely exceeds 10 degrees. Keeps from climbing and dropping too much and airpeed pretty much holds by itself.
 
I'm not working on my commercial rating, but I am going to try this next time I get a chance to fly. Looks kind of fun. :)
 
somorris said:
I'm not working on my commercial rating, but I am going to try this next time I get a chance to fly. Looks kind of fun. :)
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Contrary to many, I think that when properly accomplished it’s an excellent demonstration of aircraft mastery.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Contrary to many, I think that when properly accomplished it’s an excellent demonstration of aircraft mastery.
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Not contrary to me. Anyone can fly the airplane. The lazy eight proves you can talk the airplane into flying itself.
 
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