Struggling to Land the Plane

[MuseChaser]

all good advice but particularly liked number 2. Moving the elevator, rudder, ailerons slightly. Have been thinking about this a lot. I’m getting you mean very little increments and most often back again to where they started? I’m also guessing at times instinct would be to use the rudders in coordination with ailerons, but other times cross. It seems like this could help a lot at times. It is harder to move accurately from fixed position than even if you need to correct the opposite way than currently moving it seems quicker than movement from stop to a new position.

a year or so ago I saw a video of a pilot in a c173 landing in what looked to be brutal gusting and wind, and he has the yoke and rudder all over the place all the way down. Also not just small movements, large amount of travel. It was amazing. He landed ok, but it was a little intimidating thinking his reaction time was super fast.

You'll most often end up cross-controlled if there's a crosswind component... rudder to keep the aircraft pointed down and aligned parallel to the runway, and aileron to correct for any side drift away from the centerline. When you correct for one, it'll influence and require a correction in the other.

Re/ the frequent "bumping" of the controls, the amount of travel for those "bumps" will vary with airspeed...as the plane slows to stall speed (another point for the OP... when you touchdown, the stall horn should be blaring), the controls get increasingly less responsive and it takes more input to get the desired responses. If you keep the controls moving, this helps you feel just how much additional input is needed as the landing process unfolds. As your mains touch in a tricycle-gear plane and you continue to hold the nose off, assuming you're at stall speed, you SHOULD end up with the yoke held full back against your chest, and dependent upon crosswind conditions, full aileron deflection into the wind.... because by that point the airspeed is so slow that controls no longer have much authority so it takes gross inputs to achieve needed and desired results.
I am NOT a CFI, nor what I would consider an experienced veteran pilot.

 

[Bill Greenwood]

I think some of you must have had a mental block about landings. It just isn't that hard in a average airplane, like a 172 in normal conditions of wind, runway, etc. If you get all wound up about how difficult it is you may just make it so. If you do the fundamentals, its not so hard. Some people say a Mooney is hard to land. Well if you approach at 90 which is 20 too fast it is going to float a long ways. I had a friend who is a CFI and bought a Mooney and I flew with him, Sure enough he was reluctant to close the throttle and we floated way down the 4100 ft runway in Boulder, It was painful for me to watch, but I just didn't say anything, he's a nice guy and so many people just don't want a suggestion.

I cant understand how it can be so hard that it took 100 or more landings to get the hang of it? Who was flying all those landings since the first days you started pilot training? Was the CFI doing them for you? If so,that is not the way it should be. I don't know how many landings I had pre solo, but I had 12 hours so lets say probably 30 landings since a lot of the first hours are on normal handling, stalls, etc. not just landings. I recall my thoughts exactly, that I wasn't great at landings but was fine at takeoffs so I'd takeoff and not worry about the landings and it was so.

 

[Shuswap BC]

I agree with everyone else that said you're way way to fast on final. Also look out the windshield way down the runway on approach, don't focus just 50 or 100 feet in front of you. Lastly, you don't need to try and scrape the tail upon landing. I see some people who way over flare, and there is no need to do that. Yes you need to touch a bit nose high, and on the mains first, then just keep pulling back slowly on the yoke/stick as the nose tries to settle until your out of control movement and the nose gentle touches down. I like coming in and a gentle flare, nose wheel if a tricycle gear a little bit off the ground, and if a tail dragger the same thing the tail wheel is not touching first. I swear that some people have no clue how ridiculously nose high they are, they are dragging the tail, or almost dragging it, or land tail wheel first if flying a dragger. I live on an airpark, and see too many people who are too fast, over flare, or both. I don't know why they do it, but it is odd to see, and a bad idea in my opinion. About June or July this year I was preparing my Bonanza at the hangar for take off, and stopped to watch a Cessna 180 on final. This clown landed tail wheel first, held the flare steep, the wing finally stalled, it dipped left a bit and slammed onto the mains. I just shook my head, and figured that maybe he would learn once he had 4 or 5 landings in it, assuming it was his first ever landing in a 180. He parked near by and came over to chat with me, where I learned he had owned it for a year already, didn't just buy it earlier that day, and take a pass on getting a check out ride. Usually I don't say anything about terrible landings to strangers, but that day I did. Asked him why oh why don't you land like a normal person instead of a massive flare while going too fast, rolling along on the tail wheel a while, until the wing stalls and it slams down. He said that is how he was told to land a dragger was tail wheel first. I actually asked him if he wanted to go do a couple of touch and goes with me in my Bonanza and see what a normal approach angle felt like, so we did. Two touch and goes, then a full stop, he was surprised how shallow of an angle i came in at. I shut down, and a few others who live and fly in my home airpark came over to talk, because they saw me flying touch and goes, and I usually don't, I just depart, and come back home full stop. He asked them if my approaches looked good or too shallow in the flare. Four out of four pilots told him my approaches were perfect.
Well i left because i had to go to a meeting, and when i returned about 6 hours later, he was still there, and asked me if I would fly with him in his 180, we did 9 touch and goes, I flew the first couple to show him, then he did 7, each one getting better and better. Once he did two good landings in a row, i said okay lets go around and make this a full stop, so approach number 10 was a great landing to a full stop. I had him axe 10 knots off his speed, and using less than half the flare angle. His wife actually stood there to the side and shot video of us, he could see how we landed on the mains first and a few inches of space between the grass and tail wheel. He also commented on how nice it was to have better forward visibility, not seconds of being blind and praying that he was still near the center, and a deer or something didn't decide to run out onto the runway while he couldn't see. It happens here all to frequently, I aborted a landing on short final as I watched 3 deer wandering onto the runway.

 

[dtuuri]

Who was flying all those landings since the first days you started pilot training? Was the CFI doing them for you? If so,that is not the way it should be.

Sorry, I can't agree with this part of your post. Even in your own example of observing a Mooney pilot, you can see where observing how other pilots do business can be revealing. A CFI has the experience to be a good role model, so at the end of a lesson I think it helps to take the controls and let the student observe while the CFI points out essential fundamentals, like WHERE TO LOOK DURING THE FLARE! (sorry, my emotions got the best of me.) What doesn't help is letting a student try to juggle aircraft controls at the same time he's learning how to judge glide angle, whether going to be too high or too low, too fast or too slow all with a continuously changing sight picture. All this when tired from an hour's worth of learning and practicing new maneuvers and concepts. Let them sit back and relax while seeing how easy it can be done as the CFI masterfully shows them the secrets.

 

[MuseChaser]

I think some of you must have had a mental block about landings. It just isn't that hard in a average airplane...... I recall my thoughts exactly, that I wasn't great at landings but was fine at takeoffs so I'd takeoff and not worry about the landings and it was so.

Everybody is different. I had a hard time with landings, and still talk myself through them out loud at times. One of my previous partners in my plane learned to fly in our plane, and he was one of those guys who just intuitively "got it." He landed the plane better after 15 hours than I did after 120 hours. Like my ex-partner, you're one of the lucky ones, Bill. Some of us less fortunate folks have to take baby steps and figure it out.

 

[Half Fast]

I think some of you must have had a mental block about landings. It just isn't that hard in a average airplane, like a 172 in normal conditions of wind, runway, etc. If you get all wound up about how difficult it is you may just make it so. If you do the fundamentals, its not so hard. Some people say a Mooney is hard to land. Well if you approach at 90 which is 20 too fast it is going to float a long ways. I had a friend who is a CFI and bought a Mooney and I flew with him, Sure enough he was reluctant to close the throttle and we floated way down the 4100 ft runway in Boulder, It was painful for me to watch, but I just didn't say anything, he's a nice guy and so many people just don't want a suggestion.

I cant understand how it can be so hard that it took 100 or more landings to get the hang of it? Who was flying all those landings since the first days you started pilot training? Was the CFI doing them for you? If so,that is not the way it should be. I don't know how many landings I had pre solo, but I had 12 hours so lets say probably 30 landings since a lot of the first hours are on normal handling, stalls, etc. not just landings. I recall my thoughts exactly, that I wasn't great at landings but was fine at takeoffs so I'd takeoff and not worry about the landings and it was so.

He isn't flying a 172. He is in a Tecnam LSA. I also learned in a Tecnam LSA and I am now flying a Cherokee. Landing the Cherokee is trivial compared to a light sport in a gusting xwind.

 

[Bill Greenwood]

So who is a top instructor and how do they do it, (teach landings) for instance. While there is much to be gained by siting at the airport and watching other pilots land, especially the good ones: this gives you a good image of the important last 20 feet or so, seeing the plane descending then shallowing the angle and then coming to level passing bout 10 feet and finally pulling the nose up to flare to a slow touchdown in the last few feet. My image of a flare is like a rider pulling back on the reins to get a horse to slow and stop. And a demo or two by the CFI is ok, but little is learned by the student using his hands only to write the check after a lesson which is mostly just riding while the CFI flies.
One of the best instructors I have flown with is Lee Lauderback of Stallion 51 at Kissimmee, Florida. He's not in a basic trainer he's either in a T-6 or a P-51, and guess who is doing the landing: the student. Now this are not low time students, but often new to the 51 and very soon if not the first hours the student is landing the airplane. There are not many ways to better enjoy spending $10 K if you've got it!
As for the Technam guy, maybe that is not the best trainer for learning, and in any event I would not likely be doing it in a "gusty crosswind".
As I wrote, " in normal conditions wind etc. "

 

[Volitation]

Hi everyone.

So I have been flying for over 20 hours now and have done about 80 landings.

I generally find I can do most things in the plane reasonably well. We've basically just done traffic patters and a few essential things out of the pattern like turns, climbing and descending, stalls.

I am flying at a controlled airport and have pretty much nailed the traffic pattern.

However, the landings are just disastrous. Every time I land I flare to early or too quickly and we balloon and slam down on the runway. I know when the plane balloons quite a lot to level the nose and then flare when it descends again, but

My CFI just says I need more practise to nail the landings, but it feels like I am not making any improvement.

I usually fly once or sometimes twice a week so it's not like I am forgetting lots. Not sure if the airport helps. The traffic pattern is fairly large and it's a busy field with a bit of commercial traffic which sometimes means that I don't do that many touch and goes in the hour. It has a huge 8000 feet runway though.

Any suggestions on how to master the flare and improve? I feel like I am just stuck at this stage and will never solo.

Assuming proper speed and stability, if your problem is flaring too early, don’t flare so soon.

Seriously. It finally clicked for me when I forced myself to get the nose ‘down’ and keep it there until what seemed to me the last possible second. (It wasn’t.)

 

[woodchucker]

First of all don’t sweat it. And don’t compare yourself to others. Just keep practicing.

Once on final I find it helpful to trim the aircraft to the desired airspeed. Once set there are no forward pushes needed on the yoke. Shouldn’t really need any back pressure either until leveling the plane over the runway. If too high reduce power a smidge and add a smidge of back pressure. No large corrections on final. If I’m really high I will use a forward slip to correct that. No forward pressure on final. That’s my rule.

When leveling slow and smooth back pressure using just enough to hold it level. If your airspeed is on target it won’t balloon. Power should be coming out also. Use just enough back pressure to keep it slightly nose high. And from there let her settle to the runway.

If you balloon you have two options. Add a bit of power and reset the landing or go around.

Those are just some of my thoughts. Always follow your CFIs suggestions.

 

[Kelvin]

My landings SUCKED until I quit fixating on the prop and cowling and started looking 1000 or more feet down the runway...

 

[Eric Brunelle]

I had the same problem back when I was a student pilot. I solved it by going with another instructor. My regular instructor was good, but I wasn't getting the concept from him. Sometimes, you need another point of view.

 

[jspilot]

Hi everyone.

So I have been flying for over 20 hours now and have done about 80 landings.

I generally find I can do most things in the plane reasonably well. We've basically just done traffic patters and a few essential things out of the pattern like turns, climbing and descending, stalls.

I am flying at a controlled airport and have pretty much nailed the traffic pattern.

However, the landings are just disastrous. Every time I land I flare to early or too quickly and we balloon and slam down on the runway. I know when the plane balloons quite a lot to level the nose and then flare when it descends again, but

My CFI just says I need more practise to nail the landings, but it feels like I am not making any improvement.

I usually fly once or sometimes twice a week so it's not like I am forgetting lots. Not sure if the airport helps. The traffic pattern is fairly large and it's a busy field with a bit of commercial traffic which sometimes means that I don't do that many touch and goes in the hour. It has a huge 8000 feet runway though.

Any suggestions on how to master the flare and improve? I feel like I am just stuck at this stage and will never solo.

Assuming you are flying a 172 here’s what I’ve learbed works more often than not( in just a private pilot though- not a CFI but have close to 450 hours in a 172 and like 620 something landings.)

First, make sure you are trimmed correctly. It’s very hard to fight a 172 or any plane that’s not trimmed for landing. Once you turn final I usually give it about two small swipes of nose up. Here’s the way to tell, if you are pitched nice down and swipe nose up you will be able to release the pressure on the yoke and the plane will return just briefly to a more nose level attitude. That means you are trimmed correctly.

Second, you must level off before flaring. During the level off, allow the plane to lose speed and then wait for the plane to start to settle. Once the plane starts to settle, slowly a smoothly apply some back pressure to ensure the main wheels touch first. If done correctly, you will touch down main wheels first and then slowly allow the nose to settle down. If you balloon all is not lost, just repeat the level off and flare again. The key here is NEVER push forward on the yoke at all during the landing process. That’s a recipe for a prop strike. Lastly, if you balloon and you are way above the runway and not in ground effect you need to wait for the settle but you also might need to add a bit of power right before touching down. This will soften the impact with the ground and avoid that “slam” you described. This should only be in worst case scenarios( like gusty landings where the plane is getting tossed like a kite).

Landing is tough— especially early on but once you get the concept you will develop muscle memory and that’s they key. It will all click once you can repeat the same movements on a more consistent basis.

 

[Half Fast]

Assuming you are flying a 172 here’s what I’ve learbed works more often than not( in just a private pilot though- not a CFI but have close to 450 hours in a 172 and like 620 something landings.)

Wrong assumption. He stated he's flying a Tecnam P2002. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecnam_P2002_Sierra It's a low-wing light sport aircraft and handles differently than a 172.

 

[Half Fast]

As for the Technam guy, maybe that is not the best trainer for learning, and in any event I would not likely be doing it in a "gusty crosswind".
As I wrote, " in normal conditions wind etc. "

I'm not sure what ticket he's training for, but if he's going for a Sport Pilot certificate he has to train in an LSA. And if you're going to fly LSAs, you need to learn how to handle them in winds. At the field where I trained, tricky crosswinds are the normal conditions.

 

[Bryan Mac]

I am a student pilot, and i was struggling on landings like many in our situation. Looking down the runway helped, and backing up from the controls helped me also. Meaning I had my seat too close to the controls.

 

[jg2000]

I've read through all the replies and watched the Youtube videos posted and several more.

I've already taken some of the advice above. I've flown with two other students at the school who already have PPLs focusing on how they land and the orientation of the plane to the runway.
It was helpful, but I have to say that they both landed and flared quite differently. The one guy did about ten touch and goes in 15-20 knot winds (10-15 degrees off runway) and landed perfectly every time. They other guy landed very well too.

One big difference I noticed compared to me was how slowly and smoothly they moved the controls. They also flared less than me, but my CFI always want me to flare a lot.

It's definitely something I saw that I do different and need to work on. Going to try to keep to the minimum speed on final also - will talk to instructor about this. I pay attention to it, but perhaps not enough to ensure I don't have too much energy when starting to flare.

Of course, some things are easier said than done. I know I need patience on final, but when the ground is rapidly approaching I definitely feel a slight panic.

For those that asked, during my first flight I loosely held the stick whilst the CFI landed it. On the second flight he controlled the rudder and talked me down with a few nudges along the way. From then, he gradually moved to just talking to give advice, but has intervened a few times when things are going badly. Not sure if this is the right thing or not.

Well, onwards and upwards. I'll report back when I next fly.

 

[Half Fast]

I've read through all the replies and watched the Youtube videos posted and several more.

I've already taken some of the advice above. I've flown with two other students at the school who already have PPLs focusing on how they land and the orientation of the plane to the runway.
It was helpful, but I have to say that they both landed and flared quite differently. The one guy did about ten touch and goes in 15-20 knot winds (10-15 degrees off runway) and landed perfectly every time. They other guy landed very well too.

One big difference I noticed compared to me was how slowly and smoothly they moved the controls. They also flared less than me, but my CFI always want me to flare a lot.

It's definitely something I saw that I do different and need to work on. Going to try to keep to the minimum speed on final also - will talk to instructor about this. I pay attention to it, but perhaps not enough to ensure I don't have too much energy when starting to flare.

Of course, some things are easier said than done. I know I need patience on final, but when the ground is rapidly approaching I definitely feel a slight panic.

For those that asked, during my first flight I loosely held the stick whilst the CFI landed it. On the second flight he controlled the rudder and talked me down with a few nudges along the way. From then, he gradually moved to just talking to give advice, but has intervened a few times when things are going badly. Not sure if this is the right thing or not.

Well, onwards and upwards. I'll report back when I next fly.

Were the other guys using the same flap settings as you? Makes a big difference in the Tecnam P92; not sure about the P2002.

 

[jspilot]

Wrong assumption. He stated he's flying a Tecnam P2002. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecnam_P2002_Sierra It's a low-wing light sport aircraft and handles differently than a 172.

View attachment 79397

Right- noticed that after I posted. I’ll still leave my response for those who may stumble across this thread who are flying a 172.

 

[jg2000]

Were the other guys using the same flap settings as you? Makes a big difference in the Tecnam P92; not sure about the P2002.

Yeah, they both used full flaps on every landing.

 

[Vadim]

I'm new here. Been lurking but singed up just for this thread. Thank you for this thread. I'm learning a lot.

I feel in the same situation as an OP. Learning on C172. I'm at 35 hours and 65 landings and far from getting landings consistently. But maybe with above information will improve. The points about keeping airspeed consistent is what rings most true for me in terms of what I think I'm doing wrong...

 

[Dana]

...I like coming in and a gentle flare, nose wheel if a tricycle gear a little bit off the ground, and if a tail dragger the same thing the tail wheel is not touching first. I swear that some people have no clue how ridiculously nose high they are, they are dragging the tail, or almost dragging it, or land tail wheel first if flying a dragger. I live on an airpark, and see too many people who are too fast, over flare, or both. I don't know why they do it, but it is odd to see, and a bad idea in my opinion. About June or July this year I was preparing my Bonanza at the hangar for take off, and stopped to watch a Cessna 180 on final. This clown landed tail wheel first, held the flare steep, the wing finally stalled, it dipped left a bit and slammed onto the mains...

It depends on the plane. I've never flown a C-180 or any tailwheel Cessna, but touching slightly tailwheel first in normal in my Hatz. The mains don't slam down, it just gently settles... and doesn't bounce. But with no flaps, the nose has gotta be a lot higher than a 180 with full flaps or you'll be way too fast. OTOH, I can't remember ever touching down tailwheel first in my T-Craft, it's just not what that plane required.

To the OP, as some others have said, don't focus on the landing, strive to hold the plane a foot off the ground until it quits flying. Don't worry if you float halfway down the runway at first (assuming it's long enough). Eventually you'll get the hang of the timing and put it where you want.

 

[snglecoil]

Take heart. I passed my instrument checkride today. The DPE said the “Good job. The ride has ended now all you have to do is land without killing us.”

And of course it was the worst landing I’ve had in ages...happens to us all every once in a while.

 

[FastEddieB]

This keeps coming up.

Pilots must be advising to look all the way down the runway while landing because it works for them. Fine. Just be advised that in many aircraft you simply can’t see the far end of the runway in the landing attitude.

I’ll keep it short and just post the advice of the FAA first, then Bill Kershner...

 

[alfadog]

When I picked up flying again after 34 years off, and before I did my tailwheel training, I was struggling with landing also. I found this to be the most helpful advice...

https://www.amazon.com/Make-Better-Landings-Ellesmere-Bramson/dp/0711019525

 

[Huckster79]

Hang in there! I was at 20 hours and didn’t feel close to solo... I wondered if maybe I didn’t have it in me... don’t compare yourself to other students...

The key for me was changing instructors, my original instructor was a great guy and I still chat w him, there was no hurt feelings... we just had a teaching style / learning style mismatch... 3 hours with the new guy he let me solo with a stiff crosswind (for a solo)... This may or may not be an issue and only you can judge that.

Even if it’s not a mismatch having an hour or two will someone else may even help... different set of eyes or different way of walking you through it may help bring it together and carry on with your existing cfi...

 

[pit2atx]

Here's a trick I learned that completely changed my landings... Others have already hammered on airspeed being key. The most important thing about airspeed is getting too SLOW. The sink rate will increase rapidly if you're not right above the run way and you'll have to arrest it with a high angle of attack flare to not slam down onto the runway. Of course don't get too slow at any point in the pattern and risk stalling!

The trick for me was to learn to fly the plane just above and level with the runway and essentially fight it from landing by maintaining the sight picture using increase yoke pressure as airspeed bleeds off and it doesn't want to fly anymore. If you're too fast, you'll simply float longer (use good judgement on the amount of runway you still have left before going around) This has worked for me every time since. If your airspeed is good, you won't float much at all and you'll get much better with setting it up in time. Hope that helps

 

[bobmrg]

Here's a trick I learned that completely changed my landings... Others have already hammered on airspeed being key. The most important thing about airspeed is getting too SLOW. The sink rate will increase rapidly if you're not right above the run way and you'll have to arrest it with a high angle of attack flare to not slam down onto the runway. Of course don't get too slow at any point in the pattern and risk stalling!

The trick for me was to learn to fly the plane just above and level with the runway and essentially fight it from landing by maintaining the sight picture using increase yoke pressure as airspeed bleeds off and it doesn't want to fly anymore. If you're too fast, you'll simply float longer (use good judgement on the amount of runway you still have left before going around) This has worked for me every time since. If your airspeed is good, you won't float much at all and you'll get much better with setting it up in time. Hope that helps

I'm going to disagree a tad. In my umpty-ump years as an instructor, far too many pilots had trouble landing because they were concerned about getting too slow and stalling. Good landings are slow landings. 1.3Vso on short final and 1.2Vso over the fence provides first a thirty percent cushion decreasing to a twenty percent cushion without approaching a stall. Good landings are slow landings (is there an echo in here?")

If the OP's instructor insists that he flare more energetically he should go out with another instructor. Definitely an echo in this thread.

Bob

 

[pit2atx]

I'm going to disagree a tad. In my umpty-ump years as an instructor, far too many pilots had trouble landing because they were concerned about getting too slow and stalling. Good landings are slow landings. 1.3Vso on short final and 1.2Vso over the fence provides first a thirty percent cushion decreasing to a twenty percent cushion without approaching a stall. Good landings are slow landings (is there an echo in here?")

If the OP's instructor insists that he flare more energetically he should go out with another instructor. Definitely an echo in this thread.

Bob

Bob - I am 100% in agreement with you. The point I wanted to make is that getting low and level above the runway was key for me letting the remaining airspeed bleed off naturally along with the echo of hitting your approach speeds. Assuming approach speeds are on point, there won't be much float. If you're too high though and slow, a sudden sink rate will occur causing a hard landing.

 

[Shuswap BC]

Yes, for some reason a few instructors are paranoid about stalling, so they teach students to come blazing in like they are in a race. When I bought my current plane, a Bonanza A36, I did an hour with an instructor to transition into it, he treated the circuit like a race course. Thank God the runway was ridiculously long, but the second he was gone from my plane, i chopped 20 knots of the speeds he was telling me to use. It is a Bonanza, not a heavily loaded F14 Tomcat. If I had tried using his ridiculous speeds when I got home, my first landing at my home airstrip would have also been my last as I slammed into the trees at the far end of the runway.

 

[DFH65]

Don't land, that is my advice.

 

[FastEddieB]

1.3Vso on short final and 1.2Vso over the fence provides first a thirty percent cushion decreasing to a twenty percent cushion without approaching a stall. Good landings are slow landings (is there an echo in here?")

I was having similar thoughts.

I know that “roundout” and “flare” can mean the same thing in many texts, but I consider them two distinct phases, albeit with the first seamlessly transitioning to the second.

The 30% margin being carried on final needs to be gotten rid of somehow before touchdown. The key is to, for the most part, do most of that before entering ground effect. That’s what I see the roundout accomplishing. If I had to guess, that results in arriving in ground effect maybe 10% above stall speed, with just a few knots to dissipate in the flare, resulting in very little float.

As an option to rounding out and flaring, one can also use a “stall down” method, timing the airspeed loss so as to arrive at the ground with zero margin above the stall. That works*, but leaves little margin for error if either height or timing is misjudged so as to arrive at stall speed a few feet above the runway. So, the roundout/flare method is safest/best for most pilots most of the time.

This, from Kershner, graphically shows the two different techniques:

*See the short field landings at Valdez in YouTube videos, for example.

 

[rtk11]

One big difference I noticed compared to me was how slowly and smoothly they moved the controls. They also flared less than me, but my CFI always want me to flare a lot.

In a Light Sport, the instructors want to protect that nose gear as it's generally less robust than the gear on a 172. That is likely the reason your instructor is looking for a pronounced flare while learning to land. You can reduce that flare angle as you become more proficient at landing. It literally should be the same view out the cockpit as when you're taking off.

Going to try to keep to the minimum speed on final also - will talk to instructor about this. I pay attention to it, but perhaps not enough to ensure I don't have too much energy when starting to flare.

Your instructor is going to want at least 1.5 times stall speed because he wants to ensure you have enough energy to avoid a base to final or landing stall. That said, in the Tecnam, I think he's probably looking at 65 knots on final would be guess. (I do about 65 knots on final in my Sportcruiser). Your instructor probably won't have you do this for a while, but I'm probably around 50-55 knots over the fence. I say "probably" because once landing is assured, i'm looking outside and all the way down the runway, and not at my panel.

What may help with landing is to make sure you have a stabilized approach on final. This means that your airspeed is under control, you have a good descent rate, and are aligned to runway centerline. On LSA aircraft, you can do short finals, but that makes the workload harder as you've got to do things in rapid succession. If possible, ask your instructor (and tower if necessary) to extend downwind so that when you turn final, you can get airspeed, alignment and descent under control.

 

[FastEddieB]

I also don’t spend a lot of time watching my airspeed indicator on final.

But watching my videos, it looks like I settle on about 55kts, which with a 39kt stall speed is about 1.4 Vso, a bit fast.

But I’m “lucky” in that the Sky Arrow is not particularly clean, and loses airspeed pretty quickly in the roundout. Decent example here, just over 1 minute in:

 

[Domenick]

If you get in the habit of landing fast, you will have a difficult time landing on a shorter runway.
Take your plane to altitude. Determine the slowest level flight airspeed at which you can control the plane in the landing configuration. Multiply by 1.3 and that is your final, individualized approach speed.

 

[Shuswap BC]

You want to arrive at ground effect altitude just barely above stall speed, because that very action of getting into ground effect lowers stall speed even more. Slightly nose high in the flare, but nothing dramatic, a big flare will turn any extra speed at all into altitude aka ballooning, which is the opposite of your goal, losing altitude. Nose wheel 4 inches higher than the mains, is really all you need. Save the dramatic movements for the Hollywood crowd.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I was having similar thoughts.

I know that “roundout” and “flare” can mean the same thing in many texts, but I consider them two distinct phases, albeit with the first seamlessly transitioning to the second.

The 30% margin being carried on final needs to be gotten rid of somehow before touchdown. The key is to, for the most part, do most of that before entering ground effect. That’s what I see the roundout accomplishing. If I had to guess, that results in arriving in ground effect maybe 10% above stall speed, with just a few knots to dissipate in the flare, resulting in very little float.

As an option to rounding out and flaring, one can also use a “stall down” method, timing the airspeed loss so as to arrive at the ground with zero margin above the stall. That works*, but leaves little margin for error if either height or timing is misjudged so as to arrive at stall speed a few feet above the runway. So, the roundout/flare method is safest/best for most pilots most of the time.

This, from Kershner, graphically shows the two different techniques:

*See the short field landings at Valdez in YouTube videos, for example.

First, the airplane never really stalls in the landing. The max nose-up attitude in flaring just above the surface doesn't get the AoA high enough to stall. Sure, flaring high will result in a hard landing, but that's a rapid sink, not a stall. In a stall the nose drops, or a wing. Bad stuff. The aircraft designers don't want the airplane to stall in the landing because it means a loss of control, so they build the airplane to land slightly above the stall.

A Citabria and most other taildraggers sit on the ground with their chordline at around 12 degrees, while the stall is at around 17. The flight path at touchdown is essentially parallel to the runway, so the AoA in a taildragger three-point is pretty close to that 12 degrees. Most trikes are set up the same way. However, a good sink rate from 20 feet up can still damage stuff. The "stall-proof" Ercoupes were easy to break that way. Short wings sink real quick.

The stall speed is also lower in ground effect. More noticeable on low-wing airplanes, of course. The ground inhibits the upwash immediately ahead of the wing, reducing the effective AoA, and also dampens the wingtip vortices that cost some lift.

If one does some full-flap power-off stalls at altitude, pitching so that altitude isn't lost until the break, and notes the indicated airspeed at the stall break, one should find that the airspeed at a nose-high touchdown is higher than at the stall.

An awful lot of airplanes (trikes) are being landed so fast that the stall warning never sounds; that's way too fast.

 

[FastEddieB]

First, the airplane never really stalls in the landing.

Stipulated.

I think when a "full stall" landing is described, what it means is that the stick hits the rear stop as the wheels touch, leading to a situation where there's little if any lift left in the wings and energy to dissipate after landing is minimized.

An awful lot of airplanes (trikes) are being landed so fast that the stall warning never sounds; that's way too fast.

Agreed. Over on the Cirrus forum the stall horn is sometimes referred to as the "ready-to-land" horn.

 

[FlightInsight]

As others have said here, figuring out how to land a plane is one of the toughest things you'll ever do. I put it up there with quitting smoking and getting my CPA license in terms of life milestones.

As a CFI, I've seen hundreds of students in your exact position - don't know if they'll ever master it and aren't seeing improvement. Of those students, the ones who have mastered landing have only one thing in common: they kept at it.

That's it. There's no special skill or talent required, just practice. This is probably one of the most frustrating things about the process, because no matter how much we read, think, and meditate on the whole process, progress only comes from actually getting up there in the pattern.

That being said, there are two main challenges in landing, keeping the nose pointed down the center line, and bleeding off enough energy prior to touchdown. The nose is kept straight primarily by working the feet. Assuming you're flying a tricycle gear, the energy is bled off by altering the amount of back elevator pressure you're using. The goal is to try to fly the airplane just off the ground for as long as possible, bleeding off more and more airspeed, but without allowing the aircraft to "balloon" or float back off the ground too high. It's an exercise in trying "not to land" for as long as you can, and it's not supposed to be easy.

Stay in that pattern, and you'll be mastering landings soon.

Dan, CFI

 

[Shuswap BC]

Stipulated.

I think when a "full stall" landing is described, what it means is that the stick hits the rear stop as the wheels touch, leading to a situation where there's little if any lift left in the wings and energy to dissipate after landing is minimized.



Agreed. Over on the Cirrus forum the stall horn is sometimes referred to as the "ready-to-land" horn.

I regularly touch down with the stall warning buzzing.
So many factors are also lowering stall speed far below what many new students are thinking about as well.
Rarely do people land anywhere near gross weight, adding flaps, ground effect, etc. If you were at 200 agl just seconds after take off, almost full gross weight because you so far only burnt a gallon of gas, no flaps because you retracted them, and had a stall speed of 60 knots, that is all out the window when you are later on getting ready to land. You burned off a bunch of fuel so are well under gross, you added flaps, and then get so low that you are in ground effect, so possibly that new stall speed is now 46 knots. So if you find yourself over the runway, and still doing 70 knots, that is a LOT of speed to get rid of. Small training planes are the worst case scenario type of airplanes as well, they don't have speed brakes aka spoilers the pilot can just pop out to get rid of extra speed/lift. Once someone gets used to having spoilers its hard to go back, Energy management shouldn't be that hard to learn though with a good instructor. Although I have seen some instructors who have such poor energy management skills themselves, they pass that onto their students.

 

[Hippike]

Any suggestions on how to master the flare and improve?

Others above have given tons of great advice.

I feel like I am just stuck at this stage and will never solo.

Here's my story so you have comparison from the other side of the learning curve - in 2016, with 40 hours and 144 landings in my logbook CFI (along with a second CFI) finally agreed that I was ready for my solo because my landings became tolerable and plane was reusable afterward.
So don't sweat it! You'll get there! Eventually. We all do!