Steppin' up to a whim.

[Ted]

To put that in perspective, I'd expect similar costs in getting an old 421 up to snuff. So it doesn't sound too bad overall!

 

[stratobee]

Ah, you bring back some memories. I got a job flying a 690B in 1981. My checkout was a real ordeal--learning to taxi the confounded thing. The rudder pedals have toe brakes that also work the hydraulic steering system. You apply pressure and nothing happens until you apply too much and the brake grabs instead, jerking the plane to the side. Then the wind catches the big rudder and feeds back the rudder pedal causing unintended steering when your ankle refuses to bend backward.

Yeah, they're a bit tricky to taxi. You can always tell when an inexperienced Commander pilot taxis as the rudder flops back and forth!

690B's are nice. Just couldn't swing the money for one.

To put that in perspective, I'd expect similar costs in getting an old 421 up to snuff. So it doesn't sound too bad overall!

It ain't over yet!

 

[N747JB]

To put that in perspective, I'd expect similar costs in getting an old 421 up to snuff. So it doesn't sound too bad overall!

You probably aren't far off! I saw a 421C have a $90,000 annual several years back, the shop ended up buying it from the owner! And that did NOT include any engine overhauls, just neglected stuff and a money hungry shop!

 

[Ted]

It ain't over yet!

It never will be.

 

[Ted]

You probably aren't far off! I saw a 421C have a $90,000 annual several years back, the shop ended up buying it from the owner! And that did NOT include any engine overhauls, just neglected stuff and a money hungry shop!

That's a mighty high annual. When I hear those, I typically think there's an owner who doesn't know how to throttle the shop, and a shop that doesn't know how to work with an owner.

 

[James_Dean]

It never will be.

Why you gotta be like that? Someday my airplanes will be squawk free. I know they will be.





And on that day we will have a parade of unicorns and leprechauns down taxiway alpha.

 

[Ted]

Why you gotta be like that? Someday my airplanes will be squawk free. I know they will be.





And on that day we will have a parade of unicorns and leprechauns down taxiway alpha.

 

[N747JB]

That's a mighty high annual. When I hear those, I typically think there's an owner who doesn't know how to throttle the shop, and a shop that doesn't know how to work with an owner.

Let's just say the shop had a "no mercy" rule, if they saw it they fixed it and they made sure to never miss any time on the repair order. I used them for my airplanes for years, when I sold my Citation, I found another shop and realized how much I had been over paying!

 

[Ted]

Let's just say the shop had a "no mercy" rule, if they saw it they fixed it and they made sure to never miss any time on the repair order. I used them for my airplanes for years, when I sold my Citation, I found another shop and realized how much I had been over paying!

I've seen and worked with shops like that, never for long. Usually, there are many items that can be deferred rather than addressed immediately.

 

[DFH65]

You could always take it on the road and try to make some extra cash flying it with the engines off like someone I know. Whenever I see a Commander it reminds me of these pictures I took back in the day.

 

[Ted]

Air restarts of Garretts would be a bit harder...

 

[DFH65]

Air restarts of Garretts would be a bit harder...

Bob didn't restart the engines on his Shrike Commander. He did a bunch of aerobatics then would shut one engine down do some one engine work, then the other engine then do some more flying, land dead stick, taxi in and park right in front of the crowd.

 

[Ted]

Bob didn't restart the engines on his Shrike Commander. He did a bunch of aerobatics then would shut one engine down do some one engine work, then the other engine then do some more flying, land dead stick, taxi in and park right in front of the crowd.

Ahh, I hadn't realized all that. For some reason I thought he did in-air restarts as well.

 

[DFH65]

Ahh, I hadn't realized all that. For some reason I thought he did in-air restarts as well.

Maybe he did but that was how he ended the show anyway. It was a long time ago in the 90s. I may have some video tape of it somewhere.

 

[bmoeller]

This thread has been awesome! I'm not up to speed on anything turboprops, so reading about HSI and researching was enjoyable. Then to wrap it all up, you bring up Bob Hoover! I hadn't thought about him in years. I saw him in Reading, PA for their annual air show (no longer). I was in junior high at the time and my dad talked about him during his show. I can still see that green striped commander doing loops and those engine shut downs.

Wow! What a great rush of memories!

 

[paflyer]

Pretty amazing.

The exterior paint is fine. The interior, well, was that the Mary Kay corporate aircraft? I kid, I kid.. I can't say I've ever had that "stuck in a foreign hotel room on business" situation happen to me, but you know what they say about idle hands.

Is this the aircraft that will take you across the Atlantic?

Mauve, along with Golden Harvest and Avocado Green, is making a comeback.

 

[stratobee]

Couldn't attach images previously for some reason, but now it works.

In any case - wish I could have been there to clean some of that old insulation glue up, but it'll have to wait until I do interior. Looks like a mess.

When you start thinking of all the things that needs to move that goes through pressure bulkheads, it really is is a mystery how they pressurize at all. Trim cables, pedals, columns, flight controls, static lines etc. Myriad of things that all need to be sealed.

 

[denverpilot]

Maybe he did but that was how he ended the show anyway. It was a long time ago in the 90s. I may have some video tape of it somewhere.

Bob did air restarts to make the show longer and also to deal with high DA, like this 1986 show in Denver someone uploaded to YouTube.

The final engine out "energy management" or as he later deemed it, his "tribute to the space shuttle" portion of the routine starts at 06:30 or so.

http://youtu.be/uhkmY3rELeY

I believe this was the one and only time I saw Bob perform in person and I was a very young pup at this show. If there was a later show near here, that also could have been it. What I distinctly remember to this day is the sound of a Twin Commander going by with both mills shut down, at high speed. It's a very unique sound.

http://youtu.be/uhkmY3rELeY

 

[RotorAndWing]

Air restarts of Garretts would be a bit harder...

Actually the Garretts air start fairly easy. Many years ago we would do a functional flight test on Metros where we would do a shutdown, feather and restart.

 

[mscard88]

you bring up Bob Hoover! I hadn't thought about him in years. I saw him in Reading, PA for their annual air show (no longer). I was in junior high at the time and my dad talked about him during his show. I can still see that green striped commander doing loops and those engine shut downs. QUOTE]

Saw Bob at Reading but I think it his 'yella' Mustang. I did see him in the Commander at a Navy base in NNW Philly, Willow Grove? Seem to remember him dead engines on downwind, rolling it, glide in, land and rollout, turn off the runway and come to a stop show center. I think I've seen him somewhere else too. I did meet him at Sun n Fun. He had a booth autographing and selling his book. Told him I saw him at Reading and he said, "wow long time ago" or something to that effect. Great man and pilot.

 

[bmoeller]

I did see him in the Commander at a Navy base in NNW Philly, Willow Grove?

Yup! Willow Grove NAS. I've been there too for other airshows.

 

[DFH65]

Couldn't attach images previously for some reason, but now it works.

In any case - wish I could have been there to clean some of that old insulation glue up, but it'll have to wait until I do interior. Looks like a mess.

When you start thinking of all the things that needs to move that goes through pressure bulkheads, it really is is a mystery how they pressurize at all. Trim cables, pedals, columns, flight controls, static lines etc. Myriad of things that all need to be sealed.

Yeah I have always wondered how they don't leak like sieves.

 

[Ted]

Yeah I have always wondered how they don't leak like sieves.

They do. It's just making sure they leak less than the bleed air will supply.

 

[DFH65]

They do. It's just making sure they leak less than the bleed air will supply.

I wrench on warbirds on the weekends at the local museum glad we don't have to worry about that in the C47.

 

[N747JB]

Bob Hoover flew a Shrike Commander which was piston powered, not a Turbo Commander unless he changed it in the latter years.

 

[N747JB]

Actually the Garretts air start fairly easy. Many years ago we would do a functional flight test on Metros where we would do a shutdown, feather and restart.

I did them in the 441 a couple times in training. A lot smoother than a 421!!

 

[denverpilot]

Bob Hoover flew a Shrike Commander which was piston powered, not a Turbo Commander unless he changed it in the latter years.

I noticed that discrepancy sneaking into the thread also, but it didn't seem to matter. Any excuse to share stuff about Hoover is always fine by me.

(If folks watched the video I posted his announcer always mentions that all of the oil is slowly leaking out of the top of the engines since the airplane is stock and not equipped with an inverted oil system nor sealed up in any way.)

 

[DFH65]

I noticed that discrepancy sneaking into the thread also, but it didn't seem to matter. Any excuse to share stuff about Hoover is always fine by me.

I don't think anyone was insinuating they weren't piston I think the person was making the point that restarts on the turbine would be more difficult than the piston.

In any case if anyone could have done it well I would put my money on Bob.

May pull out the VCR (yeah old school) and see if I can find video of the routine if I have any.

 

[stratobee]

Well, after a long, grueling two year quagmire of equal measures technical problems as well as molasses-like pace, we have now flown! I am back in LA training in her with an instructor, but it was almost not to be… Here’s the story:

Hitched a ride in my friend Steve’s gorgeous Commander 980 up to Stockton to the mechanic. Instructor Andreas was driving up from LA to help with final test flights before we could start training. But because he’d left his phone at a restaurant stop and had to return for it, he got there too late to do a test flight that afternoon. Sigh. So we stayed the night. All we were going to do was an idle fuel flow test flight to see that she behaved, maybe adjust FF’s slightly, and then head for LA to start the training. What could possibly go wrong?

Anyway, we stayed the night and morning after there was of course pesky ground fog. After that had lifted, we did a high speed taxi, which went OK, but on the squirrely side. Anyway, finally it was time for the first flight in a long time. Took off, did a right turning climb up to 10500ft. Plane behaved well on climb and cruise except for the ratty old radios that are garbled and bleed between freq a lot.

Temps, FF etc all good, but when it came to check what we came for, the idle fuel flows, it kind of went south. Literally. You’re supposed to retard power to the stop (before the gate that takes them into reverse) and hold 120kts, gear out, full flaps and note the descent rate, hp and FF’s. We were descending 2500ft/min with FF too high and engines producing too much power. It should be around 1500ft/min. On top of that, she wanted to bank right, which means the left engine was producing too much power or the right one not enough. On the ground again, my mechanic turned up the right engine 5 clicks, and the left down 1 clicks. Next test flight the IFF’s were worse and we were now descending 2700ft/min. So something wasn’t right. She also idled high on the ground and Andreas had to ride her on the gate or even beta to not become a juggernaut. And the landings were “sporty”, as she squirreled and stopped flying when power rolled off.

Wheelout!

Getting ready for first test flight.

Test flight. Idle Fuel Flow flow checks coming up, which didn’t give good results on first try.

Panel and fuel flows. As you can see, panel is straight out of some 60's submarine....

So back in hangar to check blade angles again. Somehow they’d changed with all the rigging going on. But by that time we were out of daylight and mechanic was eager to get home to dinner. I had a friend over from Sweden waiting for me at my home, as well as my little 4 month old, so was really under pressure to get the old girl back to LA. Had to make yet more excuses to my friend and my wife. But there we were, staying another night at a ****ty motel (Stockton really makes Fresno feel like Paris..). We’ll do new test flight the morning after, but will probably have to redo the fuel settings, governor adjustments again as with the new blade angles, everything that end is probably out of whack again. I was beginning to see that this could take some time...

Back in the hangar with feathered props to set new blade angles.

Blade angles about to get reset.

Next day, we test fly and lo and behold, almost everything lines up and works good. FF’s, torque, rpm’s. When we do the IFF test, she descends 1800ft/min and has no tendency to yaw or turn. Great! Mechanic is happy with that, we file a flight plan and for the first time in almost 2 years, I get to sit left seat and fly. I was a very happy guy. But it also highlighted some things that needed doing sooner rather than later…

Third test flight and everything works out.

Ready for departure back to LA.

The positive was that she flies nice and smooth, produces a lot of power and the engines start very cool and nice, so that’s good. They spin up in about 30 seconds or less, which is very fast for Garretts. Stable as can be. We burned 59gal/hr going back, averaging about 235ktas at 17000ft. Couldn’t really go much higher with the pressurization problem (see below), otherwise I think we would have been able to see 250ktas and about 55gal/hr. I even managed to almost grease my first landing back at Chino!

Cruised slightly below the 545 degrees max continuous. In future I will aim to cruise at this number as it doesn’t really save anything pulling back. Turbines are at their most effective the closer to max temp they are. With higher altitudes the temps climb, so you “temp out”. At lower altitudes, the torque maxes out (horse power gage).

Back at Chino where we’ll be based for training period as the instructor lives nearby. Added benefit is that Jet A1 is $2.99/gal here…

Had minor streaking on left nacelle below intake after landing. Didn’t feel like oil, more like graphite or something. Heart sank a bit, until we figured out that it was just some residue inside the bleed air lines that heat the engine intake. I’d put them on going through some clouds on way down. Phew, very thankful it was not a seal or something in engine. Will have it checked.

But the panel is a disaster. Unfortunately my plan of flying her for a few months and then do the panel next year will probably not work. She needs to go in for panel and avionics work sooner rather than later, or else I’ll go nuts. Radios are scratchy and as it is now, only the backup GS/VOR works and can track anything (and it’s ancient), and since there’s no legal GPS in it, I can not do any serious IFR. At best I could transit a layer, or maybe do an ILS if I was vectored to it, but that’s about as comfortable as I’d feel about it. And you hear the LOC identifier morse code on every freq in the background – still haven’t figured out how to shut that off. Only way to shut the noise up is to turn the VOR/LOC off on the head which does wonders for your ILS approaches to minimas..

Also, pressurization isn’t going much above 2psi, so there are obviously some other leaks we have not yet found. All off this can of course be fixed – and will be fixed – it’s just frustrating after so much time to have to go pretty much straight back into a shop for panel etc. But hey, it’s not like I haven’t been here before.

All in all a happy beginning!

 

[kayoh190]

Amazing! Great writeup, and soooooo jealous!

 

[mscard88]

Maybe he did but that was how he ended the show anyway. It was a long time ago in the 90s. I may have some video tape of it somewhere.

I saw Hoover a few times during the late 70s and that's how he always did it. Also had the honor of watching fly the Mustang, just a cool dude who could the crap out of any airplane. Read his book, I have it and reread it every year or so.

 

[Ted]

Very glad to hear the test report, and that you're finally flying the old girl! It sounds like you'll definitely want to do the avionics sooner rather than later. That said, the 414 is /A, and it's probably staying that way for a while. I haven't found it to have a significant operational impact.

 

[stratobee]

Thanks Ted!
Yeah, /A seems to work just fine most of the time. Sometimes it'd be good to have the possibility to get into smaller airfields with an RNAV approach.

Single engin work yesterday. Non-event.

 

[N747JB]

Great write up! I planned on upgrading the avionics in my 425 after a year or two, I made it almost 3 months!!

 

[Ted]

The RNAV approaches are the real reason I want /G over all else. Right now I'm restricted to ILS/VOR/DME approaches. The first one I did was a night VOR/DME to EdFred's field, down to mins.

 

[stratobee]

My DME is kaput, so it's just ILS's and non-precision stuff. I hope I don't have to go to minimums anytime soon.

 

[Ted]

My DME is kaput, so it's just ILS's and non-precision stuff. I hope I don't have to go to minimums anytime soon.

You can still do many VOR approaches, you just have to use the clock instead of the DME (and even if you're using the DME, you should have the clock going in case of a DME failure).

However, sticking to ILSs is definitely the best option for now.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Had minor streaking on left nacelle below intake after landing. Didn’t feel like oil, more like graphite or something. Heart sank a bit, until we figured out that it was just some residue inside the bleed air lines that heat the engine intake. I’d put them on going through some clouds on way down. Phew, very thankful it was not a seal or something in engine. Will have it checked.

Did you fly through any clouds/spend time in IMC on that flight?

That photo is hard to tell for sure, but looks a lot like the result of cowling being loose/vibrating. Aluminum cowlings will do that: leaving a black graphite like streaking residue.

Here is a photo of a similar effect I had recently on my Twin Beech (internal cowl bracket had cracked)

That's all aluminum residue, not oil or exhaust.

 

[Velocity173]

"Smoking rivets."

 

[Fearless Tower]

"Smoking rivets."

Exactly. On the other side of those rivets is the cowl bracket that further investigation revealed a crack.