Stay away of FlightLevel Aviation / Chris LaPlante at KOWD

[schmookeeg]

Not useless. Just ill-defined and with only a very loose association with "airworthiness" which is already defined by an Annual. An Annual cares not what the condition of the plane will be the day after it rolls out -- just that it meets standard on the day of sign-off. A prebuy should be concerned with a plane's history, comparison with seller representations, and likely pain of ownership for the new buyer over the next 5-10 years.

I follow a well-defined type club prebuy checklist, but honestly, if I don't find anywhere else on the airframe with signs of corrosion, there are plenty of spots on the spar that I'd not go looking at -- either due to poor accessibility or a general "no smoke, no fire" point of view and trying to limit a 6-8 hour inspection to the big or likely pain points and items discovered that merit additional looks. Running the full annual checklist on the planes I look at is typically 40-50 hours.

This shop's prebuy fell down on the "pain of ownership" point for certain, or sees it differently than I do. I don't know Mooneys but I'd suspect a grotty spar means corrosion elsewhere on the airframe that the prebuy also missed, and if this is a common thing, they should have popped a panel or two and looked. While I think the shop is getting slagged a lot in this thread, it does seem like their prebuy was light and their annual was heavy, and that's not very nice to do to a new owner.

Savvy was created to prebuy the prebuyers and try to bring some uniformity to these things

 

[ateamer]

A prebuy is whatever the buyer wants it to be. If the A&P didn’t find something that he wasn’t assigned to look for, that’s on the buyer. Best to do the research first - on the make and model’s overall and particular trouble areas, ADs, SDRs - and then define what the A&P is going to look at on the prebuy. I like Mike Busch’s analogy for managing maintenance- the owner (or in this case, the buyer) is the general contractor. The A&P, avionics shop, engine shop, etc. are subcontractors, and it’s the general’s job to manage the subs.

 

[francisco collazos]

A prebuy is whatever the buyer wants it to be. If the A&P didn’t find something that he wasn’t assigned to look for, that’s on the buyer.

I think that's unfair.. You know the adage here applies.. I don't know what I don't know. Maybe pre-buys need to be standardized to avoid some of this. You are trusting someone to do a thorough job with the intent of finding a problem that may affect your decision to buy. I bought a boat once and I assure you that I looked at the stringers to make sure they weren't rotted.

 

[Salty]

A "thorough job" inspecting an aircraft is going to 1) cost way more than you are likely willing to pay and 2) the vast majority of sellers aren't going to allow it as it requires a large amount of disassembly to the point where it increases the risk of maintenance induced failure significantly. I know I wouldn't allow you to do that invasive of an inspection on my aircraft. I'm not even letting an unknown to me mechanic pull a cylinder on my plane, let alone what it would take to do what some of you seem to be describing.

 

[ServoB17]

Some of this has already been said, but I think this is the biggest gotcha for first time buyers and it's only going to get worse as the fleet ages.

I paid for three prebuys during my plane search in 2021. I used Savvy, and they were great, but not required. They have their own lists, but type clubs usually have something similar. Savvy breaks their list into two phases: killer items, and everything else. No use paying to check that the lights work if the borescope images look like trash. But, absolutely, the key was to not ask the shop for a "prebuy" or "what you'd check in an annual" but "please inspect the items in this checklist that I'm providing you." Crucially, we also asked them to annotate the checklist as they were doing the inspection. So now:

- The shop knows exactly what we're asking them to do, can provide an estimate for exactly that work, and can be reasonably confident I'm not going to call them in 6 months angrily asking why they didn't check 'X'. ("Was it on the list?")
- The seller knows what's going to be done to their plane.
- As the buyer, I get specific details about the status of the plane. Very helpful as I was not local, and something to point to if things are not right when I get there. ("You wrote the lights were checked but none of them work.")

Two of the shops were great with this. Got back detailed notes and I felt very confident in the condition of the planes. Unfortunately, the first one was a bit of a basket case and not exactly as represented in the ad, so I passed. The other was the plane I purchased. But the other shop...we could not get anything out of them more detailed than, "Prebuy went well. Yeah, it looks good." Lack of confidence in how the prebuy was performed wasn't the only reason I passed on that plane, but it was a big one.

If I was a mechanic, it's the only way I'd agree to do a prebuy. Give me a list of what you want checked and that is what I will check.

 

[Daleandee]

The fact the OP agreed to a prebuy based on a "crappy" checklist (his words) then requested an annual based on the Mooney 100hr/annual checklist where the corrosion was found, speaks more to what actually went on than what is being portrayed. Especially since the shop is not here to give their side of the discussion.

 

[steingar]

Replying to steingar, the corrosion was easily visible from an inspection panel. The photo that I've shared is taken with a cellphone from the inspection panel.

Hate to break it to you, but you can't see the spar cap from an inspection panel. Most corrosion is pretty easy to fix, spar and spar cap are a different matter entirely. They'd not have seen the corrosion in your photo if they didn't take off that inspection panel. For a prepurchase inspection they usually don't. For an annual inspection they do, or at least they're supposed to.

 

[Bell206]

Maybe pre-buys need to be standardized to avoid some of this.

Its been tried in the past. But without any "official" standard or requirement there's no viable path to this. There's not even a requirement to enter "prebuy" in the logbook, only the maintenance performed during a prebuy. And even if you could standardize a list by aircraft model you'd still have the variable if the seller will allow the checks that are on your list. Make every prebuy include a signed 100hr/annual inspection then you might have something but I doubt most sellers will allow it.

If I was a mechanic, it's the only way I'd agree to do a prebuy. Give me a list of what you want checked and that is what I will check.

FYI: there still must be an option for mechanic input to that prebuy list. Some provided lists can be somewhat overreaching but mainly from a lack of knowledge on how that list item can be accomplished. For example, we're not going to be removing any fuel cells on a Cessna 210 for a prebuy.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Part of the problem is you contradict yourself…

I did asked him to do as much as possible from the annual inspection as part of the prebuy, because I was going to complete the annual with them after I completed the purchase.

Is something entirely different from

Please cover all the inspection items from the annual inspection in the prebuy

 

[francisco collazos]

A "thorough job" inspecting an aircraft is going to 1) cost way more than you are likely willing to pay and 2) the vast majority of sellers aren't going to allow it as it requires a large amount of disassembly to the point where it increases the risk of maintenance induced failure significantly. I know I wouldn't allow you to do that invasive of an inspection on my aircraft. I'm not even letting an unknown to me mechanic pull a cylinder on my plane, let alone what it would take to do what some of you seem to be describing.

Good point... I didn't really think of that but splitting the annual would help

Some of this has already been said, but I think this is the biggest gotcha for first time buyers and it's only going to get worse as the fleet ages.

I paid for three prebuys during my plane search in 2021. I used Savvy, and they were great, but not required. They have their own lists, but type clubs usually have something similar. Savvy breaks their list into two phases: killer items, and everything else. No use paying to check that the lights work if the borescope images look like trash. But, absolutely, the key was to not ask the shop for a "prebuy" or "what you'd check in an annual" but "please inspect the items in this checklist that I'm providing you." Crucially, we also asked them to annotate the checklist as they were doing the inspection.


If I was a mechanic, it's the only way I'd agree to do a prebuy. Give me a list of what you want checked and that is what I will check.

This is very good and makes the most sense

 

[ServoB17]

FYI: there still must be an option for mechanic input to that prebuy list. Some provided lists can be somewhat overreaching but mainly from a lack of knowledge on how that list item can be accomplished. For example, we're not going to be removing any fuel cells on a Cessna 210 for a prebuy.

Good point. All three parties (seller, buyer, prebuy shop) need to be in agreement on the scope.

 

[Pinecone]

Well I mean come on... the guy is paying them to inspect the plane so he can buy it. I'd be ****ed off if they found corrosion in the spar because it wasn't technically a "annual". If that the case then I would not pay for a prebuy from these guys.

Exactly.

And a split inspection/annual is not an unusual thing.

But it seems now, with shops like this, getting Savvy involved up front to spec the pre-buy and break down exactly what needs to be checked makes a lot of sense.

And all those pointing out the mistakes the OP made, please take your plane to this shop for its next annual to show that it really was not the shops fault.

Personally, I THANK the OP for bringing this up so I know to NOT take my plane there.

BTW, if you are in the East and need a good Mooney shop, I CAN recommend RPM Aviation at KGAI.

 

[Bell206]

And all those pointing out the mistakes the OP made, please take your plane to this shop for its next annual to show that it really was not the shops fault.

Shops fault? They found the corrosion while performing the annual inspection. How's that a fault?

 

[Ed Haywood]

A well run business knows that setting clear expectations up front is the key to customer satisfaction.

 

[PaulS]

A well run business knows that setting clear expectations up front is the key to customer satisfaction.

This. Everyone should be on the same page at the beginning. That's generally upto the shop to set that expectation.

 

[Pinecone]

Shops fault? They found the corrosion while performing the annual inspection. How's that a fault?

Supposedly they did the inspection portion and did not find it. Then while doing the service portion, they happened to run across it.

 

[Bell206]

Supposedly they did the inspection portion and did not find it. Then while doing the service portion, they happened to run across it.

Not quite. If you read through the whole thread, by the OPs own words, he agreed to a "prebuy" check per a separate checklist that generated the 1st discrepancy list. Once he purchased the aircraft he agreed to an annual inspection per the Mooney annual checklist which generated a 2nd discrepancy list and uncovered the corrosion. Two different inspections.

 

[NavAir]

Why not do an Annual as the "Prebuy". Yeah, it might cost a bit more, but no surprises like the OP had. Buyer pays for the inspection, seller pays to correct Airworthiness issues, buyer can deal with non-Airworthiness issues as he sees fit.

 

[Bell206]

Why not do an Annual as the "Prebuy".

That is done on occasion however there usually is some sort of purchase agreement in place prior to. Performing an annual without such an agreement in place offers increased risks that a number of sellers wont accept.

That's not what I said. I asked the shop to do the inspection part of the annual as prebuy.

The annual is only an inspection. There are no other "parts" to it. The fact you thought an aircraft became unairworthy when an annual is started implies you didnt ask for an "annual" and received a "prebuy" per their list. If you had asked for the annual why did you agree to and pay for the same inspection twice then?

Curious. Did the seller permit an annual inspection to be complied with as a "prebuy" ?

Regardless what you have said does not match up with the results you stated: 2 bills, 2 checklists, and 2 inspections performed. And so on.

But we're going around in circles. You believe you got skrewed and have an axe to grind and there are those of us who think you got what you requested and paid for. I get that. However the only way to move the discussion forward is to invite the shop to participate to get their side. Should we send them an invitation?

 

[schmookeeg]

Considering how many times the Shop and DOM's name has been deliberately posted in this thread, I think he's already gotten his invite -- next time he googles his shop, he'll likely be the top result.

 

[mondtster]

Perhaps the real story should be to stay away from the shop that was caring for the aircraft before it went to FlightLevel. Obviously they hadn't seen the corrosion, which was likely there for a while. This guy found it, although the timing of the discovery is unfortunate for the new owner.

 

[Salty]

Manufacturer recommended annual maintenance is not the same thing as an annual inspection as mandated by the Faa

 

[steingar]

Again, they charged me 17 hours (2.2kusd, labor only), which sounds to be about the time it take to do the annual, for doing the prebuy.

17 hours is two guys for a day. I've done two prepurchase inspections with a mechanic, took all day both times. I doubt it'd be that much faster with two mechanics. Still not enough to pull the interior and look at the spar caps.

 

[schmookeeg]

I am sort of surprised that "replacing a spar" is an economically feasible thing to do -- wouldn't spar replacement pretty much total most airplanes?

 

[Ed Haywood]

I am sort of surprised that "replacing a spar" is an economically feasible thing to do -- wouldn't spar replacement pretty much total most airplanes?

Completely depends on construction, no?

My chosen aircraft family, Citabria/Decathlon, is known for issues with wood spars. Rebuilding a set of wings with new wood spars runs about $20K. Citabrias can be rebuilt with metal spars for a bit more, say $30K, and a new set of factory metal spar wings for a Decathlon is about $40K, turnkey. ACA is churning out new metal wings as fast as they can make them, and accepting deposits to get on a waiting list that is 6 months to a year long.

 

[Bell206]

Again, I'm not from the US and English is not my native language,

This is the first you mention this. A lot more makes sense now. De donde eres?

Did you read Mooney M20J Annual Checklist?

The FAA regulations (FARs) do not use aircraft manufacturer documents to define those annual requirements. Per the FARs, an annual inspection is a complete inspection of all the aircraft’s individual parts, the airframe, the engine(s), the propeller(s) and everything else listed on the aircraft’s type certificated data/specification sheet and equipment list. That inspection must contain the items found in Part 43 Appx D.

You’ll notice in the link above there is no mention of lubrication, etc. Manufacturers are allowed to write whatever they want. In reality, more aircraft owners use 43 Appx D for their annuals than what the manufacturer states. Being this shop is a Mooney service center as well as a Cirrus, Tecnam, Diamond, and Icon service center they are usually required to use only the factory documentation. In my maintenance experience, that can be a disadvantage to an average owner like yourself.

All things considered, I think this episode has more to do with your reduced understanding of FAA regulations and possibly a slight language comprehension barrier. Based on the information you provided, I cannot find where the shop did anything obviously wrong. I think your expectations and anticipated results were mostly based on a misunderstanding of how this process works. But don’t feel bad. There are a number of US native aircraft owners who make the same missteps you did and end up with the same issues you have and they’re supposed to know better.

That said, if I was you, I would take a step back and learn more on how the FAA and their regulations work before you continue your path in owning and operating an aircraft in the US. There are many free FAA guidance documents that will help you learn these requirements. I can post links some if you like.

You can also inquire on PoA and other forums as well with any questions you may have on how the FAA system works. However, it would be more useful to you to ask questions first how the rules or regulations work on these forums rather than use them to simply complain about your issues. Chaulk this up as a learning experience of how not to buy an aircraft and move forward to your next adventure.

wouldn't spar replacement pretty much total most airplanes?

Completely depends on construction, no?

Depends specifically on year, make, model. And in some cases even the S/N.

 

[Racerx]

I'm going to side with the shop on this one. The prebuy is just so vague, without a detailed list of what you expect it could mean very little in regards to airworthiness. A prebuy to you is very different to others. A phone conversation with the guy not doing the prebuy is suspect. So much gets lost in translation. If its written down nothing is to be forgotten or lost in translation. A quick search of the guy you thoroughly crapped on shows a linkedin page, he lists himself as a "maintenance accountant". And a search on the airman registry does not show anyone with that name holding an a/p.

Part of the story is in the details. @steingar says numerous times you cant access the spar from access panels. You called it the spar numerous times, but really it's the aft attachment point. If you post pictures perhaps that draws some clarity. So right there you can see how what may seem innocuous details really end up being quite different and costly. I'm not saying they shouldnt have caught it. But we're only getting one recollection of a phone conversation from a year ago.

 

[GaryM]

I’m glad I belong to a club. Threads like these, which pop up here regularly, eliminate any desire I have to buy a plane

 

[Bell206]

I’m glad I belong to a club. Threads like these, which pop up here regularly, eliminate any desire I have to buy a plane

They shouldn't. Dozens of aircraft are sold every month with zero issues. You only hear about the real bad ones. And its usually the buyers own fault in most cases. If you use the same analogy to flying then you shouldn't fly either as threads on aircraft accident pop up here with even more regularity than bad prebuys. Do your due diligence, keep knowledgeable people in your corner, and you'll be just fine. Of all the aircraft purchases I have been involved with I wouldn't never put anyone off from buying an aircraft simply because of what they hear on PoA or other forums. Just don't be that guy.

 

[steingar]

I have a a clarification. A bit of a muddled message from me. You can pick up spar corrosion from an inspection panel, but the real Mooney killer is corrosion of the spar cap, and that can't be seen without taking out the interior. Apologies for being unclear.

 

[Magman]

Pre-buys and first Annuals can be a disaster for both Buyer and Seller.

Just about every PB has started with “ How much for a PB?”.

Answer = “ Depends on what you want done”?

Few Buyers realize that the Fee = the depth of the “survey”.

Sellers should assure that the aircraft will be reassembled if the deal falls through.

Too often the Inspecting Tech finds an issue that kills the sale. The Buyer then says

“ OK. Punch out. I’m not spending any more on this heap”. With no one paying for

services the Tech walks out the door.

When a PB is conducted and the sale is not completed; WHO does the results of the

survey belong to? If I do a PB for A; who passes on the purchase, does B get those

results free? I think not. For what cost? Sellers think it is theirs ?

My policy is for subsequent Buyers to contact the First Buyer or the Seller if they

want those results.


A Cell Phone is an invaluable tool for a PB. Records and areas of concern can be

readily passed around. It also gives the Buyer some assurance that sections are

actually being looked at. Also some proof for the Tech.


As was said ( Bell?) the “ Gaining Tech” that will do do future Inspections should be

brought on board early in the process. They are likely the best person to assist

the Buyer in determining areas of concern.


IMHO there are 3 “phases” to a PB.


1, Type Cert Compliance - At one time I was simultaneously involved with TWO

aircraft that had engines that were not approved on the Type Certificate.

Unapproved Props are even more common. A physical check of this is very

superior to checking Records. A good item for the Gaining Tech who will

need it in the future anyway.


2. Paperwork - ADs, Overhaul quality assessment, W & B etc are again best sent to

the Gaining Tech. Many Brokers already have these items on their website.

If not; a cellphone will provide usable copies. Buyer may save a little on the PB

and the Gaining Tech is started on future work. Also gives a certain amount of

responsibility to that person.


3. Condition - Many Buyers only want Big Ticket items checked. Screen and Comp

Check would be high on that list. Airframe condition is tougher to determine

the scope. “ Any corrosion ? “ can require pulling tanks and interior to address

with confidence. Even the nicest aircraft can have a mouse die on the Wing Spar

that results in major repairs. There are few aircraft that allow a good inspection

of the entire wing without time consuming tank removal or cutting fabric. A

scope helps but still takes time. A video recording of this is a good option at

relatively low cost today. To the Gaining Tech? Seller? I think that’s up to the

person that paid for it.


If possible the Seller should only allow one section to be opened at a time and

reassembled before starting another.

 

[MauleSkinner]

You can pick up spar corrosion from an inspection panel

We used to have a customer who told his wife that. She had all of the inspection panels in the house replaced so she wouldn’t contract the corrosion that he had on his spar.