Starting training again

scarpozzi

scarpozzi

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SCARPOZZI
I've got some hours in 152/172s...maybe 35 landings, but starting over since I can't find my logbook from 12 years back.

My new flight school only has Pipers for training. Any advice for someone going from a Cessna mindset to a Cherokee? I'm nervous about ground visibility for some reason.


Update: My mother found a box from when I moved 14 years ago and it had a bunch of my books in it...including my original logbook!
 
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You mostly sit forward of the wing in a Cherokee, so the view is about the same really. You dip a wing to clear a turn in the Cherokee, instead of lifting a wing to look under it in a Cessna. Probably a little more "cushion" in ground effect, so more float. But, too hot is too hot, regardless of what airplane you are flying.

A lot of passengers feel uncomfortable hanging from a wing and more comfortable sitting on top of one. I like the shade under a cessna.
 
You will accommodate. The performance is roughly the same and the main difference will be remembering to turn the fuel pump on.

I had the opposite experience. Got my private in a low wing and then immediately got checked out in a high wing. After the initial "where'd the runway go?l when turning crosswind to downwind, it was a non-event. Same for my students who switched in either direction, even when presolo students.
 
Landings will look a bit different. When the wing enters ground effect, your eyes will be higher above the runway in a low-wing, since you’re sitting on top of the wing rather than beneath it.
 
Have to crawl under wing to check sumps
No pilot door
 
Trained in high wings ... flying my low wing. As they used to say, "ain't nuthin' but a thang!" Easy peasy lemon squeezy ... ;)
 
The main difference on landing is timing the flare. You can do that earlier in a high and not float too much but can flare too soon in a low wing and risk ballooning or slam/ porpoise on a landing. You’ll have to just learn the sight picture to time the flare to get it right.

I second the trickier crosswinds with the high wing.
 
With 12 years since your last lesson, it shouldn’t make any difference at all in terms of process or muscle-memory. The bigger difference may be if you have a different instructor and any thing in primacy you might have learned to unlearn...but unless your first instructor was an idiot, this too is unlikely.

As an initial PPL student, letting 1 week or 1 month lapse between sessions makes such a difference (more and more “rust” the longer you go between lessons) that by year 12, you’ll be just fine in the different plane. Enjoy!!
 
I nailed crosswind landings in the 152s I flew. That's interesting to hear they're easier, but perhaps that's the same ground effect float. I'm definitely going to pay closer attention to speed/control.

I always liked the Cessnas because I was taught to sight the runway on my entry/downwind using the halfway point on the strut. Since then, I've always wondered how Pipers and Boeing jets do it.
 
Cherokee’s have such a small wing that they don’t really float much, you have really be screaming on the final 90mph+ to get it to float excessively, unless you are carrying a bunch of power, then you can get them to float/fly in ground effect longer.

The other thing the small Cherokee wing will do is, the sink rate will go up quickly if you get slow on the approach or short final. Just learn good speed control like your instructor teaches it and you won’t have any problem, but if it start dropping quickly it is probably because you are getting to slow on the approach.

The other difference from 172’s is the landing gear is stiffer than the Spring Gear on Cessna’s so getting landings that grease onto the runway will be more challenging. A bit of bump as you touch down is pretty common.

Overall though Cherokee is an easy transition from the 172.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
scarpozzi said:
I've got some hours in 152/172s...maybe 35 landings, but starting over since I can't find my logbook from 12 years back.

My new flight school only has Pipers for training. Any advice for someone going from a Cessna mindset to a Cherokee? I'm nervous about ground visibility for some reason.
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It really isn't a big of a deal as it may appear. Even within the same family of airplane there will be differences. Personally, I find the difference between a 182 and 172 to be more than between a Cherokee and a 172.
 
brcase said:
Cherokee’s have such a small wing that they don’t really float much, you have really be screaming on the final 90mph+ to get it to float excessively, unless you are carrying a bunch of power, then you can get them to float/fly in ground effect longer.

The other thing the small Cherokee wing will do is, the sink rate will go up quickly if you get slow on the approach or short final. Just learn good speed control like your instructor teaches it and you won’t have any problem, but if it start dropping quickly it is probably because you are getting to slow on the approach.

The other difference from 172’s is the landing gear is stiffer than the Spring Gear on Cessna’s so getting landings that grease onto the runway will be more challenging. A bit of bump as you touch down is pretty common.

Overall though Cherokee is an easy transition from the 172.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Thanks for mentioning the gear and bump. I'm going to take it one landing at a time until I get a feel for it.

I don't know what year/model Cherokee this is, but will be reading the POH and copying all the numbers to my notepad until I can memorize them.

My earlier flight experience was flying from the smallest strip you can imagine that wasn't really level. We never flew the pattern and just flew straight in because it was un-towered and saw so little use. The other airport we visited was also un-towered 20 miles away, but large enough for private jets. This is similar to where I'm flying out of, but with mountains in the picture. I'm excited about the challenges ahead.
 
On the downwind - instead of 1/2 way up the strut use the fuel cap (if I recall correctly).

Put the runway on the fuel cap.
 
Cherokee's flight great, you'll be fine. It's simple, but critical to get the fuel selector set correctly. There's no "both", but there is an "off". If you had electric flaps, the manual ones in a Cherokee are way faster. So make sure to have your go-around sequence right. 40 flaps is standard for a landing, no harm. They slip safely and fine, but probably with a lot less authority than the 152/172. There are 2 basic flavors of Cherokee, taper and straight wing. They land a little bit different, taper floats a bit easier if you're a little too fast, but they both fly great.
 
scarpozzi said:
I've got some hours in 152/172s...maybe 35 landings, but starting over since I can't find my logbook from 12 years back.

My new flight school only has Pipers for training. Any advice for someone going from a Cessna mindset to a Cherokee? I'm nervous about ground visibility for some reason.
Click to expand...

I started in a Cessna, trained for 10 hours, and then took a forced three month break before starting training again in a Piper. I was a bit nervous about ground viz, too, before I flew the Archer, but either I just adjusted really fast or I realized I could still see plenty of the ground beneath me over the nose. I could see a lot more ground out of the front windscreen than I could in the Skyhawk, and after the first flight, ground viz wasn't even a worry.

As for landings, if you maintained good speed control on final, you could put that Hershey-bar wing Archer down exactly where you wanted it. As my CFI joked, "It has the glide profile of a brick!", and once you chopped power, it was coming down. Really good control of speed allows you to pick a soft or firm touchdown. It took me several hours to get used to the different sight picture, but once I got the seat positioning right, landings were a piece of cake, and actually were really fun because of the precision. Flying the traffic pattern was pretty much the same, but instead of looking out the side window, you look back over your shoulder. I can't say I picked any one spot on the wing to "set" the runway at during downwind, but it was pretty much 1/2 to one wing's length away. You turn base when the runway is about 45* off when you look over your shoulder. I think the traffic pattern is easier in a low wing, because you can actually see the runway when you're turning and can get a sense if you're in the right spot or not.

Maybe it was just because I had more time to get used to the airplane, but I felt like it was easier to maintain precise control of the Archer, and to make it do exactly what I wanted it to do. My recommendation is to give yourself lots of grace and make sure your CFI knows you started training in a high wing. I doubt it will make much difference since it was 12 years ago, but it just gives the instructor one more clue when they're helping you learn how to fly and land. :)
 
Flew in a 70s-era Arrow instead. It was my first time in a retract/complex. I struggled with a few things...I wasn't able to see the tach and wasn't used to the speed being in mph. The landing itself felt really fast to me as he was shooting for 90mph on the approach at a steeper angle than I expected. Keep in mind, I'm out of practice, so I wasn't used to the visual queues on the hood/dash as I was on the Cessnas. As I was nearing the runway, the CFI jumped in to make some minor corrections and I didn't want to fight him at the controls. It felt like he landed more of the plane than I did, but no complaints from me. #toomanycooks

We were landing at dusk with low light, so we didn't have much time to practice touch and gos or anything. I'm looking forward to the Cherokee just for the simplicity compared to dealing with the constant speed prop and the gear...faster approach. I realize I have a lot to learn, but I was pretty happy with the Arrow. I could see it as a possible plane for my mission when I look for something decent to travel in.
 
As an experienced "rusty pilot" I would think that after 12 years off form only having a bit of time in cessnas, that you're probably not holding on to very much anyway....if you can clear your head and basically start fresh (as if you're a new student) I'd think it would be ok to just do what the instructor says and give it a little time. You'll develop familiarity and comfort in time.
 
Going from a 152 to a Cherokee you'll feel like you're driving a truck. The 172 is somewhere in between.
 
Yep, Arrows are great. They fly very similar to a Cherokee, or at least that's my experience. Steep is good, and with the gear and flaps they slow down easily. The Dakota seems a little bit like flying a Suburban to me. Sounds like you're having fun, congrats!
 
Cessnas are easier to land. Cherokees are easier to land well. Cessnas allow for less speed discipline, but require more rudder discipline. Cherokees teach you better for airplanes that require flying the numbers. Cherokees handle much better than 172s and the manual flaps are something I wish more airplanes had.

Albany Tom said:
Yep, Arrows are great. They fly very similar to a Cherokee, or at least that's my experience.
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I find that Arrows fly better than fixed gear Cherokees. At least handling wise.
 
N1120A said:
Cessnas are easier to land. Cherokees are easier to land well. Cessnas allow for less speed discipline, but require more rudder discipline. Cherokees teach you better for airplanes that require flying the numbers. Cherokees handle much better than 172s and the manual flaps are something I wish more airplanes had.



I find that Arrows fly better than fixed gear Cherokees. At least handling wise.
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I'm a tall guy and thought I had plenty of legroom in the Arrow. I'm going to probably consider the Arrow, the Lance, and a 182P if I ever come up with the money to make a purchase. I have this dream of owning a plane for 5-15 years....then hanging it up and cashing out the asset. (even if that means rebuilding the engine and losing a large chunk to that process before recovering it on the sale) I'm just hoping I can save money fast enough and complete my training in a manner that still makes me want to fly.

Part of me is wondering how much longer these AVGas hogs are going to remain airborne with enough manufacturers wanting to push for more fuel-efficient solutions.
 
scarpozzi said:
Any advice for someone going from a Cessna mindset to a Cherokee?
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Just get ready to fend off the throngs of women about to throw themselves at you now that you are flying a proper airplane.

scarpozzi said:
Since then, I've always wondered how Pipers and Boeing jets do it.
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Practice. Not even that much practice. You'll get used to the sight picture pretty quickly.

Rgbeard said:
An arrow is a great plane. A big arrow is a PA-32.
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Probably the most true post every in the history of PoA.

Albany Tom said:
Yep, Arrows are great. They fly very similar to a Cherokee, or at least that's my experience. Steep is good, and with the gear and flaps they slow down easily
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Another great post. Arrows can go from mach .77 to 70mph and land with minimal energy in zero-time-flat. Just don't expect ground effect to help you float it down like 172... at least not in the Hersey bar Arrows.... They disrespect ground effect... they spit in the face of ground effect and will stall right through it and drop with a plunk.

Congratulations on making the switch! Not hanging from under the wing is the proper way to fly.
 
Deelee said:
Another great post. Arrows can go from mach .77 to 70mph and land with minimal energy in zero-time-flat. Just don't expect ground effect to help you float it down like 172... at least not in the Hersey bar Arrows.... They disrespect ground effect... they spit in the face of ground effect and will stall right through it and drop with a plunk.

Congratulations on making the switch! Not hanging from under the wing is the proper way to fly.
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I've made a Hershey Bar Arrow float. Do I get a cookie?
 
Deelee said:
No cookie. But you do get a medal for being way too fast over the numbers if you got one to float significantly.

It's 2022. Everybody gets a medal.
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Yay participation medal! I blame the weird MPH/KTS ASI. And it wasn't significant, just enough to say "hey, I thought these things were supposed to go thunk."
 
N1120A said:
the weird MPH/KTS ASI
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Now that is true... old Arrows don't believe in Knots... MPH only baby! They are rebellious like that. They also don't believe in having more than one door. But don't let that discourage you, OP - at least you don't have to slam it 41 times to close it like the doors on every Cessna I have flown.

Timbeck2 said:
Anyone can fly a Cessna 152 but only the best looking, skilled and witty pilots can fly a Cherokee.
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OP, see.... we have a lot of smart people here... another truthful, factual post.
 
Deelee said:
Now that is true... old Arrows don't believe in Knots... MPH only baby! They are rebellious like that. They also don't believe in having more than one door. But don't let that discourage you, OP - at least you don't have to slam it 41 times to close it like the doors on every Cessna I have flown.
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In exactly 3.0 miserable logbook hours in a 172, with exactly two door closures, I can say that it was more like 52 times.
 
Just got checked out in my school's cherokee 140. I personally prefer cessnas. The cherokee flies very similarly to a 172. However, my dislikes in the cherokee is the trim lever on the ceiling (takes getting used to) the one door to get in and out, and just a tiny cut out on the pilots side for an opening window. Oh and the airspeed is MPH which is different. High wing vs low is a preference and you won't have any problem between the two. I got my ppl in a beechcraft sundowner but fly cessnas now mainly because that's what's available to rent.
 
OU812 said:
Just got checked out in my school's cherokee 140. I personally prefer cessnas. The cherokee flies very similarly to a 172. However, my dislikes in the cherokee is the trim lever on the ceiling (takes getting used to) the one door to get in and out, and just a tiny cut out on the pilots side for an opening window. Oh and the airspeed is MPH which is different. High wing vs low is a preference and you won't have any problem between the two. I got my ppl in a beechcraft sundowner but fly cessnas now mainly because that's what's available to rent.
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Most Cherokees have a wheel between the seats.
 
OU812 said:
Nice to know unfortunately the four the school has here all have them on the ceiling. Not a problem just different.
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The one I'm flying for the first time this weekend has the crank too. I don't really see the problem....if you don't want it on the ceiling...make it the floor. Do the Tom Cruise thing and fly inverted.

top-gun-inverted.gif
 
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