Starting to look at what I want and need some thoughts

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dragon_soldier

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Dragon Soldier
I have been lurking and trying to do a lot of research (searching) on potential aircraft to fit my mission. I am about to finish my IFR and will jump into an Arrow II for an endorsement with TAA. Once I complete the endorsement, I hope to get my HP endorsement. So now is time to start thinking about what to purchase. I do not plan on purchasing anything prior to Summer '23.

My 80% mission: Family of 3 in the Southeast looking for mostly weekend and semi-regional getaways. I am trying to hold to a budget of $250,000'ish. I am ok with getting something that needs some modern avionics or has most everything. EX: 250K outfitted or 150K with 100K addons. I want something faster than the C172s I am training in and can carry 500lbs'ish in load without fuel. I would like roughly 5 hours of fuel to be available.

I plan to use an acquisition service, but would like start getting some ideas and be a somewhat informed consumer.

I have read a lot here and elsewhere on the following:
C182 (Q/P mostly)
Arrow III
SR20-G2
SR20-G3 (little over price point)

The trainers I use have avionics I would consider.
Garmin G3X, Garmin GNC 355
Garmin G500, Garmin GNS 430

Please let me know your thoughts and other aircraft I should consider and why.
 
dragon_soldier said:
My 80% mission: Family of 3 in the Southeast looking for mostly weekend and semi-regional getaways. I am trying to hold to a budget of $250,000'ish. I am ok with getting something that needs some modern avionics or has most everything. EX: 250K outfitted or 150K with 100K addons. I want something faster than the C172s I am training in and can carry 500lbs'ish in load without fuel. I would like roughly 5 hours of fuel to be available.
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Cessna Cardinal
C172XP
Grumman Cheetah/Tiger
Mooney M20F
Commander 114B
 
dragon_soldier said:
I have been lurking and trying to do a lot of research (searching) on potential aircraft to fit my mission. I am about to finish my IFR and will jump into an Arrow II for an endorsement with TAA. Once I complete the endorsement, I hope to get my HP endorsement. So now is time to start thinking about what to purchase. I do not plan on purchasing anything prior to Summer '23.

My 80% mission: Family of 3 in the Southeast looking for mostly weekend and semi-regional getaways. I am trying to hold to a budget of $250,000'ish. I am ok with getting something that needs some modern avionics or has most everything. EX: 250K outfitted or 150K with 100K addons. I want something faster than the C172s I am training in and can carry 500lbs'ish in load without fuel. I would like roughly 5 hours of fuel to be available.

I plan to use an acquisition service, but would like start getting some ideas and be a somewhat informed consumer.

I have read a lot here and elsewhere on the following:
C182 (Q/P mostly)
Arrow III
SR20-G2
SR20-G3 (little over price point)

The trainers I use have avionics I would consider.
Garmin G3X, Garmin GNC 355
Garmin G500, Garmin GNS 430

Please let me know your thoughts and other aircraft I should consider and why.
Click to expand...
The Arrow II is a decent plane. I don't actually know what a III will get you. Granted, it's a 140 KTAS plane, so only slightly faster than the 172. The next step up in speed would be a PA24 (Comanche) or a Bonanza.

There is a decent difference in the Cirri G2 to G3 leap, specifically the wing/fueltanks/controls. If I were looking at a Cirrus, I'd look G3 or newer (warning - i could be biased, but I'm not a fan of the first wing).

This mission is sort of a light twin mission I think (again - biased), like a Twin Comanche or a Travel Air! And at those prices, it's also older Baron B55 territory.

What's your OpEx?
 
I can only speak to the 182 and SR20:

The 182 is a kinda OK IFR platform, but nothing special there. Trims well, except it's bit of a whiffle ball in real turbulence. Very comfortable, but the back seat passenger usually can't see the horizon out front, and the PIC has lousy visibility unless you like looking down-and-left. Very good short field performer and super reliable. The panel is big and has real estate for swaps/upgrades. I thought of it as a little bit of a fuel hog, too. It's fast enough for what you're saying and climbs well. The later models have about 6,000 fuel drains (maybr a few less). Preflight is easy, and if you're agile you don;t even need a ladder to dip the tanks. Fuel management is brain-free, and it WILL hold a LOT of fuel! It's a metal airplane - if you can't find a hangar, call Bruce and get a cover. Depending on the model, you may have a lot of widgets to manage power - cowl flaps, mixture (often needs to be leaned on the ground for takeoff), prop, throttle, carb heat. . .

SR20 - I sometimes fly an Avidyne and Garmin GPS equipped Cirrus; It's probably a bit superior to the 182 as an IFR airplane. It punches through turbulence pretty well. Climbs well enough, but it's not a rocket in the vertical plane. It also is not a crash-and-dash, short field, yank-and-bank airplane. I mean, you COULD do all that, but a 182 would do it all much better. Entry-egress not as easy (gotta climb up). The front seat is maybe a little more intimate than a 182, but still roomy enough and very comfortable. I've never ridden in the back. It had a semi-stick (Stoke?) instead of a yoke - you fly it left handed which is pretty easy for GA pilots to adapt to - most of us fly left-hand from the left seat. The stoke pivots like a stick for roll, but is moved straight in-and-out for pitch. It's nice, gives you more room. The trim is nice. . .and annoying - it's a coolie hat on the stoke and is super-convenient. . .and very touchy. The Cirrus has a weird, and kinda crude, link between the throttle and CS prop - you don't (and can't) manage the prop - the throttle position drives that setting. Some like it, some don't - if max efficiency is your goal, then you may not like it. If simplicity is important, you're golden. I'm guessing you'd find one pretty much ready to go as far as IFR avionics, as delivered from the factory. Older ones may have 430s and such, of course. It's a plastic airplane - people say you can park them outside . . .I guess we'll know in the next few years.
 
A 4-seat airplane typically carries three people and minimal luggage (if any, based on plane and people).

If you really plan on three people with regularity, consider the six-seat options.
 
Rgbeard said:
A 4-seat airplane typically carries three people and minimal luggage (if any, based on plane and people).

If you really plan on three people with regularity, consider the six-seat options.
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OP said 500lbs before fuel. Pretty sure most 4-seat airplanes can do that.
 
Thanks for the feedback thus far.

@asicer Correct - I am 200lbs, wife 100 and daughter less than, but planning for 100. That leaves 100lbs flex (I pack for 10 people). If I needed to bring 4 I know I would have to adjust, but with 80% of my mission being just the 3 of us, I tried to use that as a main goal. I do like the C177 but was not sure about it - I will add it to my list to research more. Good suggestions.

@Rgbeard, I have been considering the 6/300 and 6/260 as well.

@Sundancer thank you for a thoughtful deep dive into the two mains I have on the list.

@kaiser yea I am heavy leaning toward G3 if I do SR20 and would require me to think hard. I am estimating $30-$40K/yr is costs (Hanger 350/mth; Payment 1100/mth; Insurance 3000/yr; Annual 3000/yr; fuel and reserves)
 
If you can find a broker/repair facility that is near you that will service your bird that would be ideal from a pre-purchase inspection/negotiation. Yes, a broker will cost 6-8% up front but, if they have great experience with the model you are looking at and offer A&P services it could really save you a bundle in the long run. I bought a 2000 182-S and my broker was really discriminatory and found a real cherry. Just went through the first annual and no surprises...only items we planned on servicing on a 22 year old airplane.
 
When I was searching for my next airplane after my C-172, I sought opinions from the old guys who were always hanging out at the airport. Morrie Dolahan (RIP) said, "Just get yourself a Bonanza. That's what you're gonna end up with, anyway."

I did, and never once had a regret.
 
Arrow extra speed isn't worth the complexity and cost IMO.

I have a G2 Cirrus. I think it is the sweet spot of value in the Cirrus lineup. I've only had to stop for fuel twice in 650 hours that would have been direct with another 10 gallons. My kids are teenagers now so full fuel isn't an option with the seats full. It's more expensive to own given the chute, etc. You didn't mention annual opex budget so that may be a concern. I fly a fair amount at night so the chute is nice to have as insurance, particularly when I fly with my kids. Mooney would be good now but as the kids grow may be limited. 182 would be a good option and have more utility than the Mooney at modestly lower speed and higher fuel burn.
 
Look at weight and fuel very closely for an sr-20. I haven't taken a 20 on a long flight in a while, but I think you may be hard pressed to go 5 hours with 500 pounds. Might be a better chance in a g-6 20, but they are big bucks.

Edit: Just did basic numbers for g2 20, you might be ok, but it's something to look at more closely before you buy though.
 
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I like not having to climb over seats to get in. So for me I would say a 182 or a 182RG (if you want to get where you're going a little sooner). You'll pay a premium for the RG with insurance and maintenance though.

I flew my 182RG all over from Chicago to NH to FL with our family of 3.
 
ksandrew said:
Just remember that if you constantly feed kids they will grow and get heavier.
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Caution ... not only this ^^^ but they sometimes move away, multiply, and then want to come back ... :D
 
All of the above posts are garbage. Listen here, jack. What you need is a Cessna 195.

Picture this. You are clear to land. As you ease the throttle back, your Jacobs engine purrs like a kitten. You gracefully slip in base to final to touch down on the 1000 footers in two point configuration. The tail lowers like the setting sun in Maui, and you taxi off on the first exit. The first exit every time. Tower clears you to preferential parking “with me” so he can ask you what year she is. Rampers are fighting to park you. The FBO girl wants to marry you. They give you the courtesy car for the week, if that is long enough for you. Airport burger is on the house. And you son, I mean Sir. Yes, Sir Cessna 195 owner. You have arrived! Welcome back Sir!
 
texasclouds said:
All of the above posts are garbage. Listen here, jack. What you need is a Cessna 195.

Picture this. You are clear to land. As you ease the throttle back, your Jacobs engine purrs like a kitten. You gracefully slip in base to final to touch down on the 1000 footers in two point configuration. The tail lowers like the setting sun in Maui, and you taxi off on the first exit. The first exit every time. Tower clears you to preferential parking “with me” so he can ask you what year she is. Rampers are fighting to park you. The FBO girl wants to marry you. They give you the courtesy car for the week, if that is long enough for you. Airport burger is on the house. And you son, I mean Sir. Yes, Sir Cessna 195 owner. You have arrived! Welcome back Sir!
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SOLD!

Oh wait, I'm the wrong person...
 
Cirrus is a nice aircraft and would be my choice, but can you get into a G2 at that price? Even an original, you're right at the top of your budget.

Of course the correct answer is to let the wife pick. Trust me, you don't want to hear "Hey, that's nice, why don't we have one of those?"
 
bflynn said:
Of course the correct answer is to let the wife pick. Trust me, you don't want to hear "Hey, that's nice, why don't we have one of those?"
Click to expand...

Ha! That is exactly what I heard. We were driving into the airport when my wife saw a beautiful red V-tail Bonanza. "Why don't we have one of those?" she said.

About six months later, a friend of mine put his V-tail Bonanza up for sale. My wife was listening when I called him and bought the airplane over the phone. "What did you just do? she said.

"I just bought a $75,000 airplane."

"Without discussing it with me?!"

"I was pre-approved."
 
Mooney
Bonanza
Regardless, buy it with the avionics you want. If it were my money, I’d pay cash for the plane and avoid the note at 7%.
 
texasclouds said:
...And you son, I mean Sir. Yes, Sir Cessna 195 owner. You have arrived! Welcome back Sir!
Click to expand...

I read your whole post in the voice 6PC used for his Vintage Aircraft ads on Plane Silly...it's a Cessna One Hundred Ninety Five!
 
I'm seeing Cirrus for sale at and below your budget: I don't mind the chute in the Cirrus, it might be worth the family reassurance and perhaps the weight penalty. It wouldn't have an impact on my choice of airplane - absent a mid-air that doesn't kill/cripple you on impact and/or mangle the chute bin, or a LOC in IMC, it seems of marginal utility. . . .I believe the repack is a significant expense.
 
texasclouds said:
All of the above posts are garbage. Listen here, jack. What you need is a Cessna 195.

Picture this. You are clear to land. As you ease the throttle back, your Jacobs engine purrs like a kitten. You gracefully slip in base to final to touch down on the 1000 footers in two point configuration. The tail lowers like the setting sun in Maui, and you taxi off on the first exit. The first exit every time. Tower clears you to preferential parking “with me” so he can ask you what year she is. Rampers are fighting to park you. The FBO girl wants to marry you. They give you the courtesy car for the week, if that is long enough for you. Airport burger is on the house. And you son, I mean Sir. Yes, Sir Cessna 195 owner. You have arrived! Welcome back Sir!
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good script for @SixPapaCharlie’s next vintage airplane ad video
 
texasclouds said:
All of the above posts are garbage. Listen here, jack. What you need is a Cessna 195.

Picture this. You are clear to land. As you ease the throttle back, your Jacobs engine purrs like a kitten. You gracefully slip in base to final to touch down on the 1000 footers in two point configuration. The tail lowers like the setting sun in Maui, and you taxi off on the first exit. The first exit every time. Tower clears you to preferential parking “with me” so he can ask you what year she is. Rampers are fighting to park you. The FBO girl wants to marry you. They give you the courtesy car for the week, if that is long enough for you. Airport burger is on the house. And you son, I mean Sir. Yes, Sir Cessna 195 owner. You have arrived! Welcome back Sir!
Click to expand...

Counterpoint

74704e9187efc5fef986f2215663fe08.jpg
 
I get a similar response with my 170…

Picture this. You are clear to land after only one 360 on the downwind for faster aircraft. As you ease the throttle back, your six cylinder Continental engine purrs like a kitten. You gracefully slip in base to final to find yourself high, really high. Because this plane floats like a homesick angel. You ease in 40 degrees of flaps, chop the power and dive down to the 1000 footers like a Stuka bomber. You bounce in two point configuration, but save it with a three pointer. You expertly lock up the brakes to make that first exit because you always make it. The first exit every time. Tower clears you to preferential parking “with me” so he can ask you what year she is. Rampers are scratching their heads on where to park you. Because they have no idea how to move you. The FBO girl thinks your plane is cute because she has never seen one that small before. She lets out a giggle. They give you the courtesy car for the week, if that is long enough for you to get the old police cruiser fixed that broke down on you. Airport burger is overpriced and slightly burned. But no matter, you got here burning only 7GPH. And you son, I mean Sir. Yes, Sir Cessna One Seventy Business-liner owner. You have arrived! Welcome back Sir!

E0EF1BAB-7CCD-47F4-B1FA-593A79282207.jpeg
 
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I bought a Cessna 205 because I have to haul 5 ppl 50% of the time and 4 30%. Prior to adding a 5th person i was looking at and nearly bought a TB20. They are roomy, reasonably fast, still factory supported, and have the most unique key to unlock the plane.

Here is a '99 TB20 with dual GI-275, a GTN750, JPI 900, WX500 storm scope and even A/C for your budget: https://socata.org/sales/tbsales.php?id=302&o=

That said, just get a 182. Best starter plane there is.
 
dragon_soldier said:
I have been lurking and trying to do a lot of research (searching) on potential aircraft to fit my mission. I am about to finish my IFR and will jump into an Arrow II for an endorsement with TAA. Once I complete the endorsement, I hope to get my HP endorsement. So now is time to start thinking about what to purchase. I do not plan on purchasing anything prior to Summer '23.

My 80% mission: Family of 3 in the Southeast looking for mostly weekend and semi-regional getaways. I am trying to hold to a budget of $250,000'ish. I am ok with getting something that needs some modern avionics or has most everything. EX: 250K outfitted or 150K with 100K addons. I want something faster than the C172s I am training in and can carry 500lbs'ish in load without fuel. I would like roughly 5 hours of fuel to be available.

I plan to use an acquisition service, but would like start getting some ideas and be a somewhat informed consumer.

I have read a lot here and elsewhere on the following:
C182 (Q/P mostly)
Arrow III
SR20-G2
SR20-G3 (little over price point)

The trainers I use have avionics I would consider.
Garmin G3X, Garmin GNC 355
Garmin G500, Garmin GNS 430

Please let me know your thoughts and other aircraft I should consider and why.
Click to expand...

You mention an Arrow III but actually the Arrow II from the mid-1970's is faster and has more useful load. Piper plane bloat over time and with each new model they get slower and heavier. The Arrow II post 1972 is a "sweet spot." If I ever own, that's on my list of candidates.
 
There are ton of options here with that budget.

C170, C177, C180, C182
Piper Comanche, Piper Arrow
Commander 114
Socata TB20
Grumman Tiger/Cheetah
33/35 Bonanza
Mooney
Cirrus SR20
The list goes on.

I love the Commander 114, personally, even though it doesn't "excel" in any single category. It has a great ramp presence and the trailing link landing gear will soften even the worst landings. Roomiest 4-place cabin in its class.
 
SoonerAviator said:
There are ton of options here with that budget.

C170, C177, C180, C182
Piper Comanche, Piper Arrow
Commander 114
Socata TB20
Grumman Tiger/Cheetah
33/35 Bonanza
Mooney
Cirrus SR20
The list goes on.
Click to expand...

That is where I am landing. Thanks everyone for the insight and thoughts.
 
Whatever you do, fly each type of plane enough to get a good feel. After a while I figured out I couldn't do the low seating of the Mooney. And couldn't see myself crawling over the copilot seat as with the Archer / Arrow, as well as the head space. And CEO (wife) needed a more stable XCountry platform vs the Tiger. And I called a few insurance companies to figure out the cost and even insurability of a retract, such as a Cardinal RG. Needed more speed than a 172.

Fly several contenders before selecting a make/model.
 
It sounds silly, even though I fly a Piper right now, but the missing door on the PIC side is a PITA. It would probably figure in (a bit) on a purchase decision for me, even though I fly alone 90% of the time.
 
M20U or M20V. Pilot side door included...at Least 30 built if you can find them.
 
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