Starting a plane in the cold

Dan Thomas said:
We couldn't talk outside, either, since your words would freeze and fall to the ground.
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In Alaska we would pick up the frozen words off the ground and and take them inside and throw them into the fire one at a time so we could hear what was said...:lol::lol:

But the bears are cool...
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Ok I have one. Who here was unable to take the plane out because the plane was stuck to the hangar floor?

Happens quite a few times in spring. Ice in front of the hangar melts, sips inside the hangar. Then at night the temp plummets and it freezes with the tires literally stuck to the hangar floor. More than once I used to call the FBO ahead of time and tell them can you unstuck my plane? They would come in with big bore heaters that are used for bit irons, melt the ice so that they can pull the plane out. Nice folks out there in ND. I miss them (not the cold though)
 
How cold? In Bethel, AK we drained the oil every evening and kept it warm on a Coleman stove. In the morning, the warm oil was poured back into the engine and it started right up. Pretty much a hassle, but it worked!
 
IK04 said:
How cold? In Bethel, AK we drained the oil every evening and kept it warm on a Coleman stove. In the morning, the warm oil was poured back into the engine and it started right up. Pretty much a hassle, but it worked!
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What about the battery, it’s performance will degrade with colder temperatures, does anybody try to keep it warm if temperatures are extreme (<0°F)?
It’s capacity will drop 50% or more as temperatures drop below 0.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
What about the battery, it’s performance will degrade with colder temperatures, does anybody try to keep it warm if temperatures are extreme (<0°F)?
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At the companies I flew for there was an electric battery warmer under the batteries. That and the engine heaters were all wired up to the same outlet.
 
3BE2A770-45FA-4FAE-81FF-2441FDFC4F1F.jpeg Just landed from an hour flight in the dark and the cold. It was 20*f at 3000’ The heater in the plane works good in this weather. When it gets to single digits you need a little more clothes on.

One of many flights I take after work year round.

sitting in my hangar with a warm plane and 3 heaters running. Just took my work shoes off and will spend a couple hours here before I go home. Pretty sure I am the only one here at my airport this time of night in the cold.
 
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While thinking about cold, does anyone use these kind of Cessna cowl opening air restrictor plates?

I got to get my IA tohelp me install them soon. Should have have the right hardware to put them in.

Is it worth putting them in? Think less air this time of year is a good thing? For a Cessna.

Forgive me for a messy bench, haven’t cleaned it off from last project.
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Dan Thomas said:
On the Canadian prairies we had to preheat the engine before we could pull the dipstick out. That oil was so thick the stick was glued in there. We couldn't talk outside, either, since your words would freeze and fall to the ground. Had to go inside to chat.:)
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Very true. I'm out in Saskatchewan - my first (and hopefully last) winter in the prairies. So many words just randomly lay on the ground. -35 celsius (-31F) in the forecast for next week. That's just plain crazy. That's 70 degrees celsius (158F) difference between our coldest and hottest days of the year.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
Very true. I'm out in Saskatchewan - my first (and hopefully last) winter in the prairies. So many words just randomly lay on the ground. -35 celsius (-31F) in the forecast for next week. That's just plain crazy. That's 70 degrees celsius (158F) difference between our coldest and hottest days of the year.
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It gets up to 127 deg F in Saskatchewan? (-31 + 158 = 127)
 
My coldest day of preheating was -38°F. By that time I was long over combustion heat and kept a 1000w generator inside so it’d start to heat the Reiff system. There are other things to consider about cold weather. Things break. I never enjoyed days below zero. I tolerate days below -20. These days I stay put on days below that. If you think the frozen north is romantic? Sink a plane in overflow, by yourself, in below zero weather. You’ll find out what you’re made of, and from them on you’ll make sure not to repeat it.

PS- if any of you thinks a -40° cold-soaked 300# engine will magically start by pouring 15# of warm oil onto it? I have a bridge to sell you. :)
 
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Zeldman said:
In Alaska we would pick up the frozen words off the ground and and take them inside and throw them into the fire one at a time so we could hear what was said...:lol::lol:
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If you toss them into the stove in the right order you can get the guy to say what you want him to say, too.

In Alberta the chinooks would rapidly thaw those words out, making a terrific racket all night. Kept us awake. One old trapper told us that he was caught in a really strong chinook while driving his dog team and sled. The wind was from behind. The lead dog was bucking three-foot drifts, and the aft end of the sled runners were raising dust.
 

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Chrisgoesflying said:
LOL, I guess that's not how the math works. Although, apparently it does go up to 117F in Saskatchewan occasionally.
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I live in SW Saskatchewan. I've seen, in the three and a half years here, 40°C (104°F) several times. Seen -40°C, too. That's a 144°F spread.
 
Gary Ward said:
While thinking about cold, does anyone use these kind of Cessna cowl opening air restrictor plates?

I got to get my IA tohelp me install them soon. Should have have the right hardware to put them in.

Is it worth putting them in? Think less air this time of year is a good thing? For a Cessna.

Forgive me for a messy bench, haven’t cleaned it off from last project.
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We used them in the flight school. They work. We also blocked the oil cooler air hose inlet in the baffle.
 
Gary Ward said:
While thinking about cold, does anyone use these kind of Cessna cowl opening air restrictor plates?

I got to get my IA tohelp me install them soon. Should have have the right hardware to put them in.

Is it worth putting them in? Think less air this time of year is a good thing? For a Cessna.

Forgive me for a messy bench, haven’t cleaned it off from last project.
View attachment 103027 View attachment 103028
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You call that a messy bench?
 
Gary Ward said:
While thinking about cold, does anyone use these kind of Cessna cowl opening air restrictor plates?

I got to get my IA tohelp me install them soon. Should have have the right hardware to put them in.

Is it worth putting them in? Think less air this time of year is a good thing? For a Cessna.

Forgive me for a messy bench, haven’t cleaned it off from last project.
View attachment 103027 View attachment 103028
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28 years flying in Alaska. I tried winter fronts once. Landed half way to my destination to remove them. Unnecessary. Duct tape on the oil cooler is all you need.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
LOL, I guess that's not how the math works. Although, apparently it does go up to 117F in Saskatchewan occasionally.
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maybe it works out if you take into account the Canadien/US conversion rates...

;-)
 
mandm said:
I’m reading online that starting a plane in the cold can damage the engine. So a preheat basically is required? When traveling in the winter then I guess one must call a FBO to ensure they provide preheating services - what do they typically charge? Thoughts?
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For our old 182 i like preheat around +30F and lower. Our Tannis heats the oil and the cylinders. When its -10F i want no less than 6hrs preheat so usually just remote it on the night before.

The most i was charged was $100/day in a heated hangar. It was probably +75F in there and was about -10F when they put it away. Preflight was awesome. But it was more expensive than the hotel. That was at KRAP. The line guys were awesome. Had it topped off and in the hangar in less than 20min.

I paid $60 (or was it $50 @WannFly) for a hangar heated to around +40F. But they also plugged it in all night. That was at Waterloo (livingston Iowa awesome FBO).

Lots of sleepy little uncontrolled airports will have a outlet outside so make sure you have at least 100ft of extcord and cowl plugs and you'd be good all night. Bring a 1>2 prong adapter and have something you can test it with or lighted ext cord ends.

Also consider a small cheapo tip switch heater for the cockpit. Maybe $20. When you arrive in morning plug it in while you preflight. About 20min will have all the electronics and gyrowarmed up. That has worked for me to atleast-10F.

One more thing. Heated hangars at FBO's are often first come first served so call ahead to verify their policy and availability.
 
mondtster said:
What people do with their cars has little in common with old aircraft engines.

The old guy who ran the first maintenance shop I worked in always said that the worst thing that happened to aircraft engines was the introduction of multi viscosity oils. Prior to multi viscosity oil being available, when it was too cold for an engine to start without preheat it just wouldn't start. After multi viscosity oil became available engines got easy enough to start that people got complacent with preheat. The longer I'm around these engines, the more I think he was at least partially correct...
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There is no such thing as "multi-viscosity oil." Any so-called multi viscosity oil is in reality the thinner of the stated viscosities.

Waaay back pilots drained the oil into a bucket and placed it near the camp stove overnight.
 
Warren Dunes said:
There is no such thing as "multi-viscosity oil." Any so-called multi viscosity oil is in reality the thinner of the stated viscosities.
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Yup. You're right. But it is much more than that: It has viscosity modifiers that clump together as the oil's temperature rises to slow the viscosity decrease, making it act like the thinner oil at low temp and a thicker oil at high temp. It's not a mix of two oil viscosities, of course. That wouldn't work.

Semantics. One can fool with words, but it doesn't change the facts.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Yup. You're right. But it is much more than that: It has viscosity modifiers that clump together as the oil's temperature rises to slow the viscosity decrease, making it act like the thinner oil at low temp and a thicker oil at high temp. It's not a mix of two oil viscosities, of course. That wouldn't work.

Semantics. One can fool with words, but it doesn't change the facts.
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Act like, as in flow like, but not act like, as in lubricate like. It lubricates like a lesser quantity (less by the volume of those modifiers) of the base stock.
 
Warren Dunes said:
Act like, as in flow like, but not act like, as in lubricate like. It lubricates like a lesser quantity (less by the volume of those modifiers) of the base stock.
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Maybe, in theory. But cold oil is a poor lubricant, and not just because it's too thick to flow. And in all the engines I had in the flight school, all reached TBO with compressions in the high 70s and no metal in the screens and good oil pressure, all run on Aeroshell 15W50. If a multigrade oil was lousy at lubricating, those engines (probably 30 of them over the years) would never have done that. Never.

There is no history of multigrades shortening engine life. There is lots of history of single-grade oils being too thick on a cold startup, resulting in spun bearings and the like.
 
Warren Dunes said:
There is no such thing as "multi-viscosity oil." Any so-called multi viscosity oil is in reality the thinner of the stated viscosities.
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In reality the base oil is typically a bit thinner than the lower number of the stated viscosities.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Maybe, in theory. But cold oil is a poor lubricant, and not just because it's too thick to flow. And in all the engines I had in the flight school, all reached TBO with compressions in the high 70s and no metal in the screens and good oil pressure, all run on Aeroshell 15W50. If a multigrade oil was lousy at lubricating, those engines (probably 30 of them over the years) would never have done that. Never.

There is no history of multigrades shortening engine life. There is lots of history of single-grade oils being too thick on a cold startup, resulting in spun bearings and the like.
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The worst case scenarios that I have heard about multi-viscosity oil relates to the worst case scenario for any aircraft engine. Not being operated. As mondtser said the base stock is very thin and it tends to obey gravity faster than thicker oils leaving nothing or next to nothing on the metal parts above. Nothing is going to be "good" in this situation, just some things are "less bad."

Just drain most-o'-yer oil into a bucket an put it near the camp stove o'ernight... Put 'er back before you go flyin'...
 
99% of oil drains off when the engine is hot. I can’t recognize any difference between straight 50 or 20-50 when the oil is 185°and the engine parts are hotter than that.

I take it you don’t live and fly in a cold climate? Multi-vis oil is standard where I live and the popular choice is XC 20-50, which still gets plenty thick in single digits and colder. Reiff and Tanis systems are required equipment and most guys who venture away from the grid have small generators for preheating. Before these modern conveniences we used combustion heaters to preheat. Some used Wham-O catalytic heaters and most used a white gas stove in some sort of collector box with a duct. My Reiff system does a better job in a fraction of the time and I’d rather not babysit a combustion heater for hours in -30°. Been there, done that. Evolution of life in the frozen north.
 
Around here in Iowa, our general rule of thumb, and the FBO's rules on rentals, no piston engine flight below 0F, no pattern work below 10F. The cold is hard on air-cooled engines, but its also hard on the entire aircraft. Gyros and other moving parts wear a little more. Plastic gets a little more brittle. And yes the survival aspect as well. If it is 0F with a 10 kt wind, the windchill is -16F and frostbite will occur in under 30 minutes. Even in a perfect off airport landing, it could easily take 15-30 minutes before help arrives. If you aren't near a road or civilization, hiking out through the snow and cold requires some preparation and appropriate gear, stuff you probably weren't wearing when flying.

Just not worth it really.
 
Stewartb said:
99% of oil drains off when the engine is hot. I can’t recognize any difference between straight 50 or 20-50 when the oil is 185°and the engine parts are hotter than that.
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That right there. A single-grade at high temp is thin, and will run off just as fast as the multigrade. That engine stays hot enough to let anything off that wants off, but even then there is still a very thin layer left on it. The cylinders and cam and lifters and gears, for instance, do not get completely dry. "But," some will say, "why the corrosion on those parts?" It's because combustion blowby contains water vapor, and water vapor condenses in that crankcase once it cools off, and water forming on parts with oil on them catalyzes (due to the metal) with the oil to form acids that eat the metal. Electrolysis and acids. Short flights, or ground-running, is a real good way to shorten the life of the engine. It doesn't get warm enough to drive that accumulated moisture out of the breather.

A thicker oil won't help that. The thing that prevents it is storage oil. It has corrosion inhibitors in it.

upload_2021-12-23_10-15-40.png

or...

upload_2021-12-23_10-18-39.png

https://www.shell.com/business-cust...da955d588ce5/theaeroshellbook-edition2021.pdf

https://www.shell.com/business-cust...raulic-fluid/fluids-and-preservatives-2f.html

Pilots and owners can believe anything they like, but many of them believe popular aviation myths without knowing it. There are plenty of authoritative sources out there that give accurate information, and older, experienced mechanics have seen the damage caused by the stuff non-mechanics want to believe. It's like refusing to listen to the doctor when he tells you to stop smoking and lose weight or else.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Around here in Iowa, our general rule of thumb, and the FBO's rules on rentals, no piston engine flight below 0F, no pattern work below 10F. The cold is hard on air-cooled engines, but its also hard on the entire aircraft. Gyros and other moving parts wear a little more. Plastic gets a little more brittle. And yes the survival aspect as well. If it is 0F with a 10 kt wind, the windchill is -16F and frostbite will occur in under 30 minutes. Even in a perfect off airport landing, it could easily take 15-30 minutes before help arrives. If you aren't near a road or civilization, hiking out through the snow and cold requires some preparation and appropriate gear, stuff you probably weren't wearing when flying.

Just not worth it really.
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Our limit was -25°C, or -13°F. We discouraged pattern work then, too, and also any forced-approach practice. Sure enough, we had one practice forced approach result in the real thing when that cooled-off engine didn't respond. No damage, but getting it out of the snowy field onto a road was fun.
 
Dan Thomas said:
If you toss them into the stove in the right order you can get the guy to say what you want him to say, too.

In Alberta the chinooks would rapidly thaw those words out, making a terrific racket all night. Kept us awake. One old trapper told us that he was caught in a really strong chinook while driving his dog team and sled. The wind was from behind. The lead dog was bucking three-foot drifts, and the aft end of the sled runners were raising dust.
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True just south of Alberta border also.
 
Derald Madson said:
Yes this is how I feel about it. Anything above 0* F I just make sure to let the engine warm up a bit before I ask for a bunch of power out of it. Below 0* F I guess I'd have to borrow a heater from someone.

How do the heaters work anyways? Are they just blankets over the engine or something?
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Two types, combine as you wish. One type is a hot plate glued to the oil pan. The other is wire bands around each cylinder. Always throw a blanket over the cowl to retain heat within the engine compartment. Reiff and Tanis are the 2 most popular.
 
murphey said:
Two types, combine as you wish. One type is a hot plate glued to the oil pan. The other is wire bands around each cylinder. Always throw a blanket over the cowl to retain heat within the engine compartment. Reiff and Tanis are the 2 most popular.
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In Canada we have had official permission, since 1997, to install a car warmer in the engine compartment, provided that the guidelines outlined in this Airworthiness Notice are met: https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/re...orthiness-notices-b037-edition-1-4-april-1997

That heater (usually around 900 watts) circulates heated air around the whole engine. A cowling blanket and cowl inlet plugs make it really effective. If that warm air can escape out of the cooling inlets, it's nearly a waste of time.

900 watts is more than most electric aircraft engine heaters will deliver.
 
I used a heat pad on the sump and a $100 Little Buddy heater hung on the engine mount for a few years. It worked well, but a Reiff Turbo XP system is far faster with about 2/3 the power consumption, which matters when the power source is a 1000w generator. 92ED8E6A-8B2C-4218-A769-E17926CA5822.jpeg
 
Dan Thomas said:
That right there. A single-grade at high temp is thin, and will run off just as fast as the multigrade. That engine stays hot enough to let anything off that wants off, but even then there is still a very thin layer left on it. The cylinders and cam and lifters and gears, for instance, do not get completely dry. "But," some will say, "why the corrosion on those parts?" It's because combustion blowby contains water vapor, and water vapor condenses in that crankcase once it cools off, and water forming on parts with oil on them catalyzes (due to the metal) with the oil to form acids that eat the metal. Electrolysis and acids. Short flights, or ground-running, is a real good way to shorten the life of the engine. It doesn't get warm enough to drive that accumulated moisture out of the breather.

A thicker oil won't help that. The thing that prevents it is storage oil. It has corrosion inhibitors in it.

View attachment 103035

or...

View attachment 103037

https://www.shell.com/business-cust...da955d588ce5/theaeroshellbook-edition2021.pdf

https://www.shell.com/business-cust...raulic-fluid/fluids-and-preservatives-2f.html

Pilots and owners can believe anything they like, but many of them believe popular aviation myths without knowing it. There are plenty of authoritative sources out there that give accurate information, and older, experienced mechanics have seen the damage caused by the stuff non-mechanics want to believe. It's like refusing to listen to the doctor when he tells you to stop smoking and lose weight or else.
Click to expand...

I haven’t seen Fluid 2F for 20 years. Phillips Anti Rust is all we can get where I live. I assumed Aeroshell quit making it.
 
Stewartb said:
I haven’t seen Fluid 2F for 20 years. Phillips Anti Rust is all we can get where I live. I assumed Aeroshell quit making it.
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Aeroshell has the 2XN. Five years ago we were still getting 2F.
 
after heating up the oil, You've still got a frozen battery
 
Battman said:
after heating up the oil, You've still got a frozen battery
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Yup. An engine compartment heater can help with that if the battery is located there. I don't know if aviation versions of electric battery blankets are available. Most battery boxes would be too tight anyway. I think Zeldman mentioned having a sump heater on the bottom of the box.
 
Just remember it’s more than just thick oil you are trying to eliminate. Aluminum and steel expand and contract differently. Aluminums “size change” is greater than steel. I’ve read that a cold soaked engine the bearing tolerances can be less than factory new standards to point there is no room for oil… aluminum case around a steel crank and the aluminum is squeezing that bearing. Also our cylinder walls are less diameter at top than bottom so that at operating temps they are the same being the top is hotter than the base. So a piston jammed into the top of an ice cold cylinder could be really tight. I want my entire engine warmed, I’m not a fan of quick blasts of heat, if ya don’t have the fancy stuff slow n steady wins the race over a quick hot blast.

I just have a sump pad, but with an insulated cowl cover and prop covers my cylinders temp out in the 80s when it’s 20 out… I do all I can before taking that cover off, being aluminum bleeds heat quickly to get that time between taking cover off a d firing up to a minimum.
 
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