STAR vs TEC routes

[Revtach]

I am finishing up my IR training. My instructor has asked me to plan a flight from KBGM to KBED.

I see there is both an RNAV STAR (DREEM TWO) I can utilize by flying to one of the transition fixes.

There is also a TEC route I can utilize that starts in KALB, an airport which is kind of along the way.

From my understanding the TEC routes are meant to relieve workload from ARTCC. I also understand that STARs are typically the preferred method when available. However, in this case the STAR takes an extra 30 nm to fly and most of the recent routes cleared between the two airports in fltplan are showing as being the TEC route through KALB.

Can I plan a route that intercepts the STAR in the middle of the arrival or does it have to be at one of the beginning transition fixes? I see others have done that but I am not sure if that is a generally accepted practice. It would cut down on the distance to the same length as the KALB TEC route.

What do you guys think?

 

[jordane93]

File the TEC route. You’ll most likely get that.

 

[PaulS]

For trips like this I just use Foreflight and find the most convenient route that is most likely to get cleared, I don't worry about ATRCC convenience, they take care of themselves and will reroute you if they need to.

A couple weeks ago I flew from Syracuse to Bedford, I filed ALB EEGUL ZELKA2 and that's what I got. I filed for 9,000 but ended up at 5,000 for Zelka2 because of the build ups. Piece of cake. I think the route they give you sometimes depends on what is going on at Boston and maybe Manchester.

Beware of KBED, the aircraft I fly is based there. If you are not based there they will pork you on fees, might want to go to KASH or KBVY instead.

 

[Ravioli]

Is there anything about KBED that isn't porked up? Fees, security headaches, Prop locks? It's the least convenient GA airport I've ever seen.

 

[PaulS]

Is there anything about KBED that isn't porked up? Fees, security headaches, Prop locks? It's the least convenient GA airport I've ever seen.

It's really bad, I used to fly out of KFIT and would avoid BED like the plague. It is a good airport to learn to work with ATC though and the controllers are great. Bedford is managed by Massport though, enough said. Oh and expensive gas.

 

[flyingron]

The NEC TEC is a completely different beast than the Califonria one. They're really, nothing more than a set of "preferred' routings. As pointed out, they're the one you're likely to get no matter what you file.

 

[Z06_Mir]

The NEC TEC is a completely different beast than the Califonria one. They're really, nothing more than a set of "preferred' routings. As pointed out, they're the one you're likely to get no matter what you file.

I learned last week it doesn't matter what you file in that area, they're gonna give you a reroute. Even if you do file a tec route. Strange strange world up there...

 

[flyingron]

Yeah, it's wierd. You think you should be able to go from the Boston area to the DC Area by filing V3. It's a bendy route which goes west of NYC and everything. I filed it, ATC accepted it, it was even regurgitated by FF as the likely route. Then I'm sitting on the ground at OWD and the controller goes... N5327K cleared to Cupeper via... wait, that's not going to work... hold on. .. OK, got your pencil ready? Gave me a really convoluted route out of NE, down the middle of LI Sound, across JFK and then V16.

1. File what you want.
2. Fly what you get.
3. Log what you need.

 

[Revtach]

Cool. Thanks you guys.

So as a general rule, does a TEC route take precedence over a STAR? What about Preferred Routes? What would you all say is the hierarchy in a situation where all three are available?

 

[EdFred]

You get what ATC assigns you.

 

[PaulS]

You get what ATC assigns you.

This, I think the guy deciding what you get has a little wheel he spins.

 

[IK04]

TEC was booming back in the '70s when I was doing all my training...

The convenience of simply calling the tower and getting an instant clearance to where you wanted to go was awesome.

Unfortunately, TEC only works in high airport density areas, so it isn't everywhere...

 

[flyingron]

TEC was booming back in the '70s when I was doing all my training...

You must be in California. That wasn't ever the way it worked on the east coast.

 

[apr911]

Cool. Thanks you guys.

So as a general rule, does a TEC route take precedence over a STAR? What about Preferred Routes? What would you all say is the hierarchy in a situation where all three are available?

I wouldn't worry about STAR's all that much. Chances are in a non-turbine GA plane, you wont be getting a STAR. STARs are more typically designed for high-altitude, high-speed aircraft; a means to get them through the middle altitudes and back into fully-controlled airspace where ATC is at least talking with every aircraft in an orderly and expeditious manner.

In a GA aircraft, even one that can make it up to flight level altitudes, the speeds are likely too slow and will cause conflicts with the other traffic following the STAR so ATC will likely give you an alternate descent plan.

STAR's are still important to know on the off chance you are thrown one, especially if you have plans to step up to bigger and faster aircraft but in practice you probably wont get a STAR that often, even when no TEC route is available.


I also personally think its important to evaluate the STARs prior to your flight so you know where they are and what they're doing (especially if you're going VFR); while there is no requirement (specific to the STAR, not necessarily the surrounding airspace) that you avoid the area or talk to anyone, buzzing your way through a STAR course at altitude without talking to anyone does create frustration for controllers and pilots on the STAR alike as they have to provide separation and route the IFR aircraft around you (which can be difficult if they dont know what you're doing or in areas like the LA basin where there is high-terrain and the STAR is laid out to bring planes down "through" passes/breaks in the mountains).

I've done it once coming back into the LA area, switched over the SOCAL/LAX Bravo frequency and was just getting ready to call up as I listened to ATC trying to route an airline around me in my Grumman. When I started talking to the controller, I called up and indicated that the aircraft he didn't know what they were doing was likely me as it checked with my position (sure enough I was) and apologized; he said I wasn't doing anything wrong but I was right at the altitude and position where he was trying to line up aircraft coming into LAX over the mountains to the North which meant having to vector all those planes around me... Since I wasn't coming into LA, he had me climb a little higher (onto a non-standard hemispheric altitude) and gave me vectors through the area allowing him to assign all others "descend via the STAR"

 

[Revtach]

For trips like this I just use Foreflight and find the most convenient route that is most likely to get cleared, I don't worry about ATRCC convenience, they take care of themselves and will reroute you if they need to.

A couple weeks ago I flew from Syracuse to Bedford, I filed ALB EEGUL ZELKA2 and that's what I got. I filed for 9,000 but ended up at 5,000 for Zelka2 because of the build ups. Piece of cake. I think the route they give you sometimes depends on what is going on at Boston and maybe Manchester.

Beware of KBED, the aircraft I fly is based there. If you are not based there they will pork you on fees, might want to go to KASH or KBVY instead.

I wouldn't worry about STAR's all that much. Chances are in a non-turbine GA plane, you wont be getting a STAR. STARs are more typically designed for high-altitude, high-speed aircraft; a means to get them through the middle altitudes and back into fully-controlled airspace where ATC is at least talking with every aircraft in an orderly and expeditious manner.

In a GA aircraft, even one that can make it up to flight level altitudes, the speeds are likely too slow and will cause conflicts with the other traffic following the STAR so ATC will likely give you an alternate descent plan.

STAR's are still important to know on the off chance you are thrown one, especially if you have plans to step up to bigger and faster aircraft but in practice you probably wont get a STAR that often, even when no TEC route is available.


I also personally think its important to evaluate the STARs prior to your flight so you know where they are and what they're doing (especially if you're going VFR); while there is no requirement (specific to the STAR, not necessarily the surrounding airspace) that you avoid the area or talk to anyone, buzzing your way through a STAR course at altitude without talking to anyone does create frustration for controllers and pilots on the STAR alike as they have to provide separation and route the IFR aircraft around you (which can be difficult if they dont know what you're doing or in areas like the LA basin where there is high-terrain and the STAR is laid out to bring planes down "through" passes/breaks in the mountains).

I've done it once coming back into the LA area, switched over the SOCAL/LAX Bravo frequency and was just getting ready to call up as I listened to ATC trying to route an airline around me in my Grumman. When I started talking to the controller, I called up and indicated that the aircraft he didn't know what they were doing was likely me as it checked with my position (sure enough I was) and apologized; he said I wasn't doing anything wrong but I was right at the altitude and position where he was trying to line up aircraft coming into LAX over the mountains to the North which meant having to vector all those planes around me... Since I wasn't coming into LA, he had me climb a little higher (onto a non-standard hemispheric altitude) and gave me vectors through the area allowing him to assign all others "descend via the STAR"

Great thanks. I had the impression that STARS were generally for larger and faster aircraft but my instructor insisted once that I fly them when they are available. I will plan the flight using the TEC route and see what he says when we meet.

That's a crazy story. After getting all this instrument training I am surprised I was ever allowed to fly with just the PPL. I know so much more and am a much much better pilot.

 

[IK04]

You must be in California. That wasn't ever the way it worked on the east coast.

Yep. That was in the Bay Area. You could fly to seven airports IFR and then transition VFR to many more nearby.

I don't go anywhere near that place any more, so I don't know if it still works.

 

[apr911]

You must be in California. That wasn't ever the way it worked on the east coast.

Having flown on both coasts, I feel like the difference between TEC routes in CA and TEC routes in the Northeast-corridor comes down to the fact that pretty much all of CA is controlled by one of 2 TRACONs* (SoCal and NorCal) whereas the Northeast-corridor TEC routes cobble together a hodge-podge of approach facilities all doing their own thing.

*Pretty sure there's technically a total of 5 but 2 (Palm Springs and March) of them are "in name only" meaning you are still talking to SoCal approach in both instances and though they are charted as their own, it was my experience they typically only answered to "SoCal approach" even though the VFR charting would indicate or lead you to believe they should answer to "March Approach" or "Palm Springs Approach." The last one being Joshua Approach which you only encounter in the high desert where the military likes to play.

 

[apr911]

Great thanks. I had the impression that STARS were generally for larger and faster aircraft but my instructor insisted once that I fly them when they are available. I will plan the flight using the TEC route and see what he says when we meet.

That's a crazy story. After getting all this instrument training I am surprised I was ever allowed to fly with just the PPL. I know so much more and am a much much better pilot.

Ground and Flight instruction in STAR procedures and flying them is a required part of the instrument training so I'd guess that's why your CFII is so adamant about them as it is the only other somewhat obvious place that you would use them but I'd stop short of saying "use them when they are available."

While STARs are "available" they generally wont be offered or made available to you in your GA aircraft unless you specifically ask and manage to find a less trafficked airport with a STAR or one of the few airports where radar coverage/MVAs (minimum vectoring altitudes) and enroute altitudes dont get you down from the enroute portion of your flight to the approach segment without the use of a STAR (which is about the only time you can always expect a STAR in a GA aircraft).

You probably wont be asked to fly a STAR on your checkride though they are fair game on the oral/ground portion and if you're looking to fly one for practice, I'd recommend getting away from the busy Class B's and C's and even D's and going to the sleepiest Class-D airport with a STAR that you can find and even that might not be enough... I've flown into several airports from high and far enough out that I was all geared up for the "descend via the STAR" only to be vectored instead; either I was too slow for the other traffic on the STAR or the traffic was light enough that there was no reason they couldn't work me down directly on a more direct course so they did. I've requested the STAR in such situations a few times now and it also seems to similarly be hit or miss if they'll give it to me (even on request); I figure there's either traffic due in behind me that I will conflict with or its quiet enough that the controller is bored and wants something to do beside assigning me the STAR, whether that's actually the case or not, I dont know as I've never really saw a reason to ask why I couldn't get the STAR on request and just accepted whatever they've given me.

Same pretty much goes for most DP's, they're again geared towards bigger, faster planes that can climb quickly. I've seen plenty of DP's that would be nearly impossible to follow in my GA airplane, especially after the first or second fix, due to the rate of climb/gradient. ODP's on the other hand seem more for GA than the turbines that can usually outclimb whatever obstacle it is that the ODP is warning about.

 

[noahfong]

Yep. That was in the Bay Area. You could fly to seven airports IFR and then transition VFR to many more nearby.

I don't go anywhere near that place any more, so I don't know if it still works.

Northern California only got TEC routes published in the Chart Supplement about 2 years ago. Before that, folks believed it existed. I did training in SOCAL where TEC had been around and got used to being able to ask for "tower enroute ..." on the taxi out. It was great - didn't have to pre-file. Tried doing that in NORCAL and just got "what?" Talked with a few controllers up here in NORCAL and found out it doesn't work that way at all. Nothing changed - just expected routes are published. Still have to file, etc.

So, there is a BIG difference between NORCAL and SOCAL.

 

[noahfong]

To the OP. Sounds like you are thinking it is preferable to use TEC routing and STARS. If your airport has TEC to where you are going, what you file may resemble what you get. But it doesn't look like you have one to KBED. And, although it's imaginative, trying to tailgate onto KALB's is not practical, since the most direct routing would share that route anyway. IOW, if your airport doesn't have a TEC route to KBED, how can you plan TEC?

About STARs. They are primarily meant to funnel fast and high-flying aircraft into an area where they can be vectored. That's probably not you. And I would not go out of my way just to try and get onto a STAR when, most likely, you won't get it because it would mean mixing you up with fast-movers. Yes, the one you mentioned does not have speed and altitude restrictions, but still.

I would stick to routing that works best for you and is most direct/ straightforward. Looks like there is an airway that goes almost straight there with a waypoint that is an IAF for one of the ILSs.

Pretty much what the others have said. I hope your instructor is not determined to use STARs in your case. In the airlines, we fly STARs all the time. But GA single-engine is another world.

 

[flyingron]

When I was based at IAD we had the CAPITAL <insert number here> STAR. It pretty much gave the standard departure clearance: fly runway heading, maintain 3000, expect filed altitude ten minutes after departure, radar vectors to the named fix and then as filed. It also listed the standard departure frequency. Proper use of the STAR would be:

Navion 5327K is cleared to Charlotte via Capital Eight HANEY squawk 4321.

Oddly, many times CD gave the entire clearance again in addition to issuing the STAR. I was never quite sure why they bothered with the STAR. I think in all times I left IFR out of IAD, I got one like above twice.

 

[jordane93]

When I was based at IAD we had the CAPITAL <insert number here> STAR. It pretty much gave the standard departure clearance: fly runway heading, maintain 3000, expect filed altitude ten minutes after departure, radar vectors to the named fix and then as filed. It also listed the standard departure frequency. Proper use of the STAR would be:

Navion 5327K is cleared to Charlotte via Capital Eight HANEY squawk 4321.

Oddly, many times CD gave the entire clearance again in addition to issuing the STAR. I was never quite sure why they bothered with the STAR. I think in all times I left IFR out of IAD, I got one like above twice.

Isn’t the CAPITAL XX a SID not STAR?

 

[IK04]

Northern California only got TEC routes published in the Chart Supplement about 2 years ago. Before that, folks believed it existed. I did training in SOCAL where TEC had been around and got used to being able to ask for "tower enroute ..." on the taxi out. It was great - didn't have to pre-file. Tried doing that in NORCAL and just got "what?" Talked with a few controllers up here in NORCAL and found out it doesn't work that way at all. Nothing changed - just expected routes are published. Still have to file, etc.

So, there is a BIG difference between NORCAL and SOCAL.

There was no need for published routes. Like you said, I would call the tower with a tower-to-tower clearance to Oakland or Hayward and depart to the north on a vector.

 

[benyflyguy]

I am finishing up my IR training. My instructor has asked me to plan a flight from KBGM to KBED.

I see there is both an RNAV STAR (DREEM TWO) I can utilize by flying to one of the transition fixes.

There is also a TEC route I can utilize that starts in KALB, an airport which is kind of along the way.

From my understanding the TEC routes are meant to relieve workload from ARTCC. I also understand that STARs are typically the preferred method when available. However, in this case the STAR takes an extra 30 nm to fly and most of the recent routes cleared between the two airports in fltplan are showing as being the TEC route through KALB.

Can I plan a route that intercepts the STAR in the middle of the arrival or does it have to be at one of the beginning transition fixes? I see others have done that but I am not sure if that is a generally accepted practice. It would cut down on the distance to the same length as the KALB TEC route.

What do you guys think?

I just flew up to KLWM from KHZL (south of KBGM) IFR. I filed the usual northern tracking route but as I passed QTIPP I got direct DREEM which cut probably 20 min off for me. I was tickled!! Looking back I should have expected it. I didn’t even plan on asking for some early cutting of corners.

 

[flyingron]

Isn’t the CAPITAL XX a SID not STAR?

Yep, I was spacing.
Oddly, I think I only ever got a STAR there once. Usually they vector the slow guys around and given them a short intercept to final to keep them out of the way.

 

[luvflyin]

Having flown on both coasts, I feel like the difference between TEC routes in CA and TEC routes in the Northeast-corridor comes down to the fact that pretty much all of CA is controlled by one of 2 TRACONs* (SoCal and NorCal) whereas the Northeast-corridor TEC routes cobble together a hodge-podge of approach facilities all doing their own thing.

*Pretty sure there's technically a total of 5 but 2 (Palm Springs and March) of them are "in name only" meaning you are still talking to SoCal approach in both instances and though they are charted as their own, it was my experience they typically only answered to "SoCal approach" even though the VFR charting would indicate or lead you to believe they should answer to "March Approach" or "Palm Springs Approach." The last one being Joshua Approach which you only encounter in the high desert where the military likes to play.

SoCal being an Approach Control that covers a lot of sky is not why it works the way it does there. That TEC system has been around since the early 70’s. It hasn’t changed a lot since then. It has expanded out with airports added, but the basic structure and procedures haven’t changed a lot. The combining of El Toro and Long Beach Approaches into Coast Approach changed nothing significant. Neither did Burbank, Coast, Los Angeles and Ontario combining and establishing SoCal. Nor San Diego and then Palm Springs being absorbed into SoCal later. It worked well when it was a ‘hodgepodge’ of facilities.

 

[jordane93]

Yep, I was spacing.
Oddly, I think I only ever got a STAR there once. Usually they vector the slow guys around and given them a short intercept to final to keep them out of the way.

Yea every time I’ve been there, it’s been uneventful. Plus when they’re using 30 for departure I always enjoy the view of taxiing through the terminals.