Standard Rate Turns without Turn Coordinator?

If I were still teaching instrument students, I'd still include timed turns - not because its likely they'd ever need them in action, but because it gets them used to using the clock or a timer in their scan, later necessary on timed approaches and holding.

To that same end, I also found Patterns A and B handy for the same thing, plus practicing basic attitude instrument flying before getting all involved in navigation and approaches.

52240985149_e2875b281b_c.jpg
 
FastEddieB said:
To that same end, I also found Patterns A and B handy for the same thing, plus practicing basic attitude instrument flying before getting all involved in navigation and approaches.
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I haven’t figured out why the FAA took Patterns A and B out of the IFH. Anybody know?

I’ve seen way too many instructors bypass basic instrument training and start right in on approaches.
 
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FastEddieB said:
To that same end, I also found Patterns A and B handy for the same thing, plus practicing basic attitude instrument flying before getting all involved in navigation and approaches.
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I agree. I think too many CFIIs move on to flying approaches way too soon. The student needs a strong foundation in BAI flying first or he'll be behind and will struggle on approaches.
 
Larry in TN said:
It's not displayed. We are rarely flying slow enough that we can do a standard rate turn without exceeding our 30° bank limit.

With clean wings, we can't do it. Varies by weight, but 210 KIAS is generally the slowest speed that I know I can fly clean in the 737. Bigger airplanes can be much higher.

We target 25° for most turns, less at high altitude. 30° is available if we need it.
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What’s the issue at high altitude? There was something we were talking about a few months back. The coffin corner or something like that came up. Is that it?
 
EdFred said:
Well, when you don't have a TC, that's what we did.
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Having trouble getting the scenario here. You do timed turns because the heading indicator went nips up. Usually because of vacuum failure. That takes the attitude indicator with it. When you said no TC, did you mean you had Needle and Ball instead? Or no Rate indicator at all?
 
FastEddieB said:
If I were still teaching instrument students, I'd still include timed turns - not because its likely they'd ever need them in action, but because it gets them used to using the clock or a timer in their scan, later necessary on timed approaches and holding.

To that same end, I also found Patterns A and B handy for the same thing, plus practicing basic attitude instrument flying before getting all involved in navigation and approaches.

52240985149_e2875b281b_c.jpg
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The patterns are excellent for a number of things. Timing, which is done these days in emergency situations, is definitely one of them. Anticipation - keeping ahead - is another. Changing the timings to distances would make the patterns almost equally useful.
 
luvflyin said:
Having trouble getting the scenario here. You do timed turns because the heading indicator went nips up. Usually because of vacuum failure. That takes the attitude indicator with it. When you said no TC, did you mean you had Needle and Ball instead? Or no Rate indicator at all?
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Before widespread Technically Advanced Aircraft, there was a strong trend toward removing turn coordinators and replacing them with a second AI, normally using a different power source than the original AI (typically the same source the TC was.) If they needed a TC to drive the autopilot, they’d sometimes install that behind the panel.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Before EFIS, there was a strong trend toward removing turn coordinators and replacing them with a second AI, normally using a different power source than the original AI (typically the same as the TC was.)
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Yeah. I was kinda assuming EdFred was just using a basic ol' 6 pack with vacuum AI and HI and electric Rate instrument. Probably not. @EdFred ???
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. I was kinda assuming EdFred was just using a basic ol' 6 pack with vacuum AI and HI and electric Rate instrument. Probably not. @EdFred ???
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I’ve flown a lot of steam gauges, but only one airplane ever with an unmodified “basic ol’ 6 pack”. ;)
 
luvflyin said:
About what altitude do you have to start doing less than 25?
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It varies based on weight and temperature. We are required (procedure) to limit bank when we are above our optimum cruise altitude. Most will limit bank angle, at least somewhat, when out of the terminal environment (over FL180, or so) to make the ride more comfortable.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’ve flown a lot of steam gauges, but only one airplane ever with an unmodified “basic ol’ 6 pack”. ;)
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I did my instrument training in an airplane with a 6 pack, two VOR receivers, and an ADF. Several years later I was excited to fly an airplane with a KLN 94.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I did my instrument training in an airplane with a 6 pack, two VOR receivers, and an ADF….
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Likewise, but the six pack in every other steam gauge airplane I’ve flown had at least one of the six moved for something else, even without gps or loran.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Likewise, but the six pack in every other steam gauge airplane I’ve flown had at least one of the six moved for something else, even without gps or loran.
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If you're talking non-standard, that's different. I flew a Mooney Ranger years ago where nothing was in the standard six pack configuration,
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. I was kinda assuming EdFred was just using a basic ol' 6 pack with vacuum AI and HI and electric Rate instrument. Probably not. @EdFred ???
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I don't have a rate indicator either. I have a second AI that is electric and has a ball.
 
luvflyin said:
Having trouble getting the scenario here. You do timed turns because the heading indicator went nips up. Usually because of vacuum failure. That takes the attitude indicator with it. When you said no TC, did you mean you had Needle and Ball instead? Or no Rate indicator at all?
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No rate indicator.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I know. There are a few of those. But, I instructed students in T-37s for quite a number of years, and trust me… we taught them standard rate turns.

Now, whether or not they remember us teaching them that, that’s a different story. ;)
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When and where?

I don’t recall timed turns. No gyro ASR and PAR yes.

Laughlin class 82-01
 
Pinecone said:
When and where?

I don’t recall timed turns. No gyro ASR and PAR yes.

Laughlin class 82-01
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I was Willie 93-02, but instructed at CBM from 1996-2000. ASR, PAR, and one minute turns on each end of a holding pattern (for timed approaches) to name a couple reasons why we taught you would need a standard rate turn.
 
luvflyin said:
What’s the issue at high altitude? There was something we were talking about a few months back. The coffin corner or something like that came up. Is that it?
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The 767 had a bank angle limit selector. We selected 15 degrees leaving FL 290. 15 degrees is considered a "non bank" as far as wing loading is used. That is also why it is used in Part 25 airplane engine failure procedures. The Garmin G-X0000 series used in jet airplanes automatically reduces auto-flight bank angle to 15 degrees at a flight level specified by the airplane manufacturer. It can be overridden on the auto-flight panel.
 
RussR said:
In a typical IFR training airplane you're getting bounced around so much anyway that any attempted precision is just a guess.
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As a new IFR student, I'll second this - at least some of the time. Did a couple timed turns with clock and turn coordinator, which in smooth air actually came out a lot better than I expected! It'd be tough to do it accurately in turbulence, and ever harder adding an electrical failure. (Seems like a lot of instrument flying is 'get it close enough')
 
sonopoa said:
I guess you are flying big iron jets, not training or light GA piston

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I fly big airplanes at work, but I also fly GA.

Was that video for me? Thanks, I guess... :dunno:
 
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Sluggo63 said:
I was Willie 93-02, but instructed at CBM from 1996-2000. ASR, PAR, and one minute turns on each end of a holding pattern (for timed approaches) to name a couple reasons why we taught you would need a standard rate turn.
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OK, I just don't recall any timed turns. I just flew a standard rate turn to the proper heading for holding.

I do remember the vertical S training profile, but mainly flew those in the sim.
 
RussR said:
...Heck, in my opinion even just simple compass turns are easier to execute, as long as you remember UNOS and what it means. Forget the timing. In a typical IFR training airplane you're getting bounced around so much anyway that any attempted precision is just a guess.
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For some reason, I have trouble remembering the rules for compass turns, so I've always preferred timed turns.
 
David Lloyd said:
The Garmin GI-275 and G5 only show a standard rate turn if the temperature sensor is installed. Need that to calculate true airspeed and the the standard rate. GI-275 Depiction is a white triangle on the attitude indicator that will move depending on TAS.
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I don’t think this is correct.
I had my G5’s installed in 2018 and earned my instrument rating the next spring2019 in my plane and I know used those standard rate turns vectors every time I flew.
It was not until 2020 that I had a GAD13 installed to get TAS,temp and wind vectors.

I received about 40 hours in a G1000 in addition to the 6 pak during my primary training that made me comfortable with the G5 s right from the start. Highly recommend to get some training behind glass if you are just starting out. Best to fly both during training I think.
 
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Palmpilot said:
OK, now I'm feeling my age! :D
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Me too. :D

My first time at the controls was my Dad's friend's Bonanza. It was SUPER well equipped. It had a VOR!!!!!!!!

Granted, I was only 5. ;D
 
You can take 10% of your true airspeed and then add half. For example if your flying at 100 KTAS, 10% is 10, and half is 5. Therefore you’d use 15 degrees of bank


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Convert your speed to meters per second, multiply it by pi/600, set it equal to bank_angle + (bank_angle^3)/3, and solve for bank_angle. I just tried it for 51 m/s (100 knots) and got 15 degrees which seems right. This is a bit difficult to do while flying.

Edit: For 200 knots the bank angle is 29 degrees! [I think 28 if you do the math exactly]
 
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RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
Convert your speed to meters per second, multiply it by pi/600, set it equal to bank_angle + (bank_angle^3)/3, and solve for bank_angle. I just tried it for 51 m/s (100 knots) and got 15 degrees which seems right. This is a bit difficult to do while flying.

Edit: For 200 knots the bank angle is 29 degrees! [I think 28 if you do the math exactly]
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What bank angle do you get if you put mach 0.89 into the formula?
 
asicer said:
What bank angle do you get if you put mach 0.89 into the formula?
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With my thumb rule, at sea level you get 64 degrees [correct answer should be 58 degrees]. At 50,000 feet you get 58 degrees [correct answer should be 54 degrees].

edit: I came up with an alternate thumb rule that's less precise for small speeds/angles, but is more precise for higher speeds requiring banks in the range of 30-60 degrees. However, it's even more unwieldy than the previous thumb rule so there's not much point. It was a fun math exercise after not using this stuff for a long time, though.
 
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Okay, this might actually be useful. How accurate is the thumb rule, "take one-tenth the airspeed in knots and add back half to get the standard rate turn bank angle"? I plugged it into Excel:

IHlrMQh.png


The left side axis shows bank angle, and the right side axis shows % Error. The conclusions:
  • The thumb rule is most accurate for airspeeds of about 100 knots.
  • The thumb rule is fairly accurate (within ~5% error) for airspeeds below ~200 knots.
  • The thumb rule is fairly or particularly inaccurate (greater than 10% error) for airspeeds at or above 250 knots.
 
FastEddieB said:
If I were still teaching instrument students, I'd still include timed turns - not because its likely they'd ever need them in action, but because it gets them used to using the clock or a timer in their scan, later necessary on timed approaches and holding.

To that same end, I also found Patterns A and B handy for the same thing, plus practicing basic attitude instrument flying before getting all involved in navigation and approaches.

52240985149_e2875b281b_c.jpg
Click to expand...
I agree learning Timed Turns, Timers in holds and Timed approaches is really cool.
Anytime I do an ILS, if it has a LOC with A Time, I alwasy set the clock and see if I can hit it.

I don't know of any VOR timed approaches any more, but there were a couple during my training and they were fun too.
 
Chicago Bearhawk said:
I agree learning Timed Turns, Timers in holds and Timed approaches is really cool.
Anytime I do an ILS, if it has a LOC with A Time, I alwasy set the clock and see if I can hit it.

I don't know of any VOR timed approaches any more, but there were a couple during my training and they were fun too.
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Here’s one in your neighborhood

upload_2022-9-8_20-14-27.png
 
MauleSkinner said:
Because it’s designed around runway 36?
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Its got straight in minimums and the approach course is 330. Runway 36 has a magnetic alignment to 001 - so more than 30 degrees.
 
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