Standard Rate/Bank Angle

luvflyin

luvflyin

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
May 8, 2015
Messages
16,168
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
Display Name
Display name:
Luvflyin
Standard Rate is 3 degrees per second. But not to exceed 25 degrees of Bank. It’s roughly around 190 knots you have to stop banking more than 25 and will be making less 3 per second. So. You’re a slower plane and want to tighten the turn up for some reason. Like Approach gave you a late turn to intercept final. Safe or unsafe for us bugsmashers to increase bank to 25. CFII’s, whadda ya say, and everyone else also. Also, what do some combinations of GPS boxes and Autopilots do?
 
I once did a 360 on the ILS LOC before the FAF because approach didn't get me down in time. Sometimes you do what you have to do.
 
luvflyin said:
Standard Rate is 3 degrees per second. But not to exceed 25 degrees of Bank. It’s roughly around 190 knots you have to stop banking more than 25 and will be making less 3 per second. So. You’re a slower plane and want to tighten the turn up for some reason. Like Approach gave you a late turn to intercept final. Safe or unsafe for us bugsmashers to increase bank to 25. CFII’s, whadda ya say, and everyone else also. Also, what do some combinations of GPS boxes and Autopilots do?
Click to expand...
Generally speaking, if you need more than a standard rate turn to do what you need to do then something went wrong...bad vector, strong winds aloft, etc. As a general rule, yanking and banking to fix a already broken problem is just adding another broken link in the safety chain. Is this an emergency? If not, ask ATC for time and space (i.e vectors, resequence, another turn in the hold, etc.) and get it right the next time.
 
luvflyin said:
Standard Rate is 3 degrees per second. But not to exceed 25 degrees of Bank. It’s roughly around 190 knots you have to stop banking more than 25 and will be making less 3 per second. So. You’re a slower plane and want to tighten the turn up for some reason. Like Approach gave you a late turn to intercept final. Safe or unsafe for us bugsmashers to increase bank to 25. CFII’s, whadda ya say, and everyone else also. Also, what do some combinations of GPS boxes and Autopilots do?
Click to expand...

The RNAV will calculate the proper point to begin a standard rate turn and the AP will execute a standard rate turn when commanded to do so by the RNAV. If you get a late turn in IMC, you do not have to accept the clearance.
 
Looks like you are still ok with the current A thru E Approach categories. E limit is only 166 KTS.
A Garmin 530 and Sperry Honeywell APZ 7600 work fine.
 
Last edited:
Brad Z said:
Generally speaking, if you need more than a standard rate turn to do what you need to do then something went wrong...bad vector, strong winds aloft, etc. As a general rule, yanking and banking to fix a already broken problem is just adding another broken link in the safety chain. Is this an emergency? If not, ask ATC for time and space (i.e vectors, resequence, another turn in the hold, etc.) and get it right the next time.
Click to expand...
Yup. Ya don't have to accept a sheety Clearance. And of course yankin' and crankin' is bad. Just talkin' about using say 20 degrees of bank even though it will give you more than 3 per second rate if you are slow.
 
Last edited:
Maxnr said:
Looks like you are still ok with the current A thru E Approach categories. E limit is only 166 KTS.
Click to expand...
I'm not talking about Approach Categories. But while we're here, all those speeds are ones where you'll get 3 degrees rate with less than 25 of bank.
 
Last edited:
Clip4 said:
The RNAV will calculate the proper point to begin a standard rate turn and the AP will execute a standard rate turn when commanded to do so by the RNAV. If you get a late turn in IMC, you do not have to accept the clearance.
Click to expand...
Yes, of course you can tell Approach to pound sand, let's try this again. That's not my question about RNAV and Autopilot. I'm wondering if they will exceed 3 degrees per second, up to some limit of bank, like 25, if that will make it work.
 
Maxnr said:
Looks like you are still ok with the current A thru E Approach categories. E limit is only 166 KTS.
A Garmin 530 and Sperry Honeywell APX 7600 work fine.
Click to expand...
?? That APX 7600 seems to be barcode scanner. But Sperry Honywell does make auto pilots I see. So are you saying a Garmin 530 and a Sperry auto pilot will command a greater than 3 degree rate turn? If so, there must be some angle of bank limit. If so, do you know what the bank limit is?
 
luvflyin said:
Yup. Ya don't have to accept a sheety Clearance. And of course yankin' and crankin' is bad. Just talkin' about using say 20 degrees of bank even though it will give you more than 3 per second rate if you are slow.
Click to expand...
You're the PIC, you decide what your risk tolerance standards are. What is the purpose of standard rate turns? The most basic purpose is a predictable rate of turn that allows you to turn to a bearding without gyroscopic instruments.

To me, the big risk is not large bank angles, but minimizing vertigo from sudden attitude changes. It's not the bank angle so much as the rate of change from 0 degrees to 20 degrees or whatever.

If you're having to make fast changes in bank angle with relatively large angles of bank in IMC, just ask yourself why...and whether making greater than standard rate turns is good ADM for the situation at hand.
 
luvflyin said:
?? That APX 7600 seems to be barcode scanner. But Sperry Honywell does make auto pilots I see. So are you saying a Garmin 530 and a Sperry auto pilot will command a greater than 3 degree rate turn? If so, there must be some angle of bank limit. If so, do you know what the bank limit is?
Click to expand...
Please forgive the typo. "X" and "Z" are next to each other.
 
Std rate is for ifr/imc to reduce spacial disorientation risk and to standardise for timing

Vfr downwind to base in the circuit is typically 30degree aob

Not sure what your point is op
 
Brad Z said:
You're the PIC, you decide what your risk tolerance standards are. What is the purpose of standard rate turns? The most basic purpose is a predictable rate of turn that allows you to turn to a bearding without gyroscopic instruments.

To me, the big risk is not large bank angles, but minimizing vertigo from sudden attitude changes. It's not the bank angle so much as the rate of change from 0 degrees to 20 degrees or whatever.

If you're having to make fast changes in bank angle with relatively large angles of bank in IMC, just ask yourself why...and whether making greater than standard rate turns is good ADM for the situation at hand.
Click to expand...
Gotcha. Agree completely.
 
sonopoa said:
Std rate is for ifr/imc to reduce spacial disorientation risk and to standardise for timing

Vfr downwind to base in the circuit is typically 30degree aob

Not sure what your point is op
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to make a point. Just answers to the questions I asked.
 
Maxnr said:
Please forgive the typo. "X" and "Z" are next to each other.
Click to expand...
Searches of X and Z both brought up bar code readers for me, but it doesn't matter. Have you flown with a Sperry auto pilot and if so I ask the same question. "...So are you saying a Garmin 530 and a Sperry auto pilot will command a greater than 3 degree rate turn? If so, there must be some angle of bank limit. If so, do you know what the bank limit is?.."
 
luvflyin said:
Also, what do some combinations of GPS boxes and Autopilots do?
Click to expand...
A rate-based autopilot references a turn coordinator for bank, so will probably use standard rate

An attitude-based autopilot references an attitude indicator, and will probably be set to 25-27 degrees bank.
 
"Standard rate turn" is a useful tool and guide, but it's not magic. Nor is it a limit. My CFII back in the day certainly didn't teach that it was a maximum limit, and I don't either.

As I see it, there are only two real purposes for a standard-rate turn vs any other rate.
- So you can time turns (rarely needed ever since we stopped using compasses as our primary heading reference)
- To have something for ATC to plan on when they're vectoring to final (otherwise you might have someone turn at 1/2 standard rate or some other lazy turn and take forever to get to the heading desired).

I think of the case where you're intercepting a course - maybe the inbound course in a holding pattern, or otherwise some radial or even a GPS course. You don't guess quite right on when to start turning, or the crosswind/tailwind is stronger, whatever, and you can tell as you're in the standard rate turn that you're going to go through the course. You have two choices:
- Keep the standard-rate turn, fly through the course, keep the turn coming back to a new intercept angle, roll wings level, then turn the opposite direction to get established on the course, or
- Tighten the turn up a little bit and roll out on the course.

I know which one I'd prefer as being less complicated and reducing workload.

We're not talking steep turns here, but if an additional 5-10 degrees of bank will make everything work out, why not do it?

Again, standard rate turns are just a repeatable, easy-to-use planning tool, not a limit.
 
Standard rate turns are left over from the lighted airways and LF Range days.

You use the bank angle that is necessary for present circumstances, but not to exceed 30 degrees. 30 degrees of bank angle in instrument flight procedures is 25 degrees achieved. In primary instrument training it is essential that a CFII train to proficiency in 30 degree bank angle turns before moving on to more advanced training.
 
30° max, standard rate if you feel like trying to remember where to look on the panel. Just bank a comfortable amount as required. Flight director? Follow the V-bars.
 
TAS/10+5 will give you a bank angle that is close enough to allow you to use a turn indicator in rough air.

Increasing the angle to 30 degrees is no biggie at all if it's need to capture a course.
 
aterpster said:
Standard rate turns are left over from the lighted airways and LF Range days.

You use the bank angle that is necessary for present circumstances, but not to exceed 30 degrees. 30 degrees of bank angle in instrument flight procedures is 25 degrees achieved. In primary instrument training it is essential that a CFII train to proficiency in 30 degree bank angle turns before moving on to more advanced training.
Click to expand...
How does that 30=25 achieved work?
 
Not exceeding 30 degrees helps keep the load factor reasonable. Remember your first instructor showing you the graph of an exponential increase in load factor as the bank angle increases beyond 30-45 degrees?
 
luvflyin said:
How does that 30=25 achieved work?
Click to expand...

I'm not 100% sure this is what @aterpster meant, but in procedure design, a maximum bank angle of 25 degrees is planned for when calculating turn radii and therefore leg length/distance between fixes (and minimum turn radius on RF turns). We're talking an effective ground track here, and it is expected that the aircraft will bank up to 30 degrees to achieve this ground track based on an average of 25 degrees of bank. This gives the airplane a little bit of "wiggle room" to work with - because planes don't instantaneously roll in to turns of course, and if you required an achieved 30 degrees of bank throughout the turn, that could never actually be reached if 30 degrees is your bank limit - conceptually, if you temporarily went a little bit shallow, to 29 degrees due to turbulence (etc.), then you'd have to go to 31 degrees to make up for it - so it's not possible to achieve a ground track based on 30 degrees of bank angle if 30 is the limit. So a maximum of 25 is used for the calculations.
 
Last edited:
Llewtrah381 said:
If anyone wants to be precise about bank angle for standard rate turns, this is a fun calculator: http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html

It also gives turn radius, G-force, etc. Kinda fun.
Click to expand...

One interesting thing that calculator can show you is the difference in time it takes to do a 45 degree steep turn at various airspeeds. I've done a couple of type ratings, and the steep turns always seemed to take forever - and it's because you're going faster.

The formula depends on KTAS, and since the faster the plane, the higher we did the turns, the bigger the difference.

A C172 at 3000 feet at 110 kias is about 115 ktas, so 38 seconds.
King Air, 5000 ft, 180 kias, 194 ktas, 64 seconds. And it comparatively sure did seem to take forever.
Citation, 10,000 ft, 200 kias, 232 ktas, 77 seconds.

Neat calculator.
 
30 max? Funny

We did instrument aerobatics in the T-38 sim. :D

I was on an instrument ride and the controller kept turning me onto the localizer late. To intercept, I used 60 degrees of bank. It worked perfectly
 
Pinecone said:
I was on an instrument ride and the controller kept turning me onto the localizer late. To intercept, I used 60 degrees of bank. It worked perfectly
Click to expand...
Controller: I was giving approach vectors to this T-37…on the first approach, I thought I was a little late with the intercept vector, but it looked like it worked out, so I adjusted the rest of them. Musta been more wind than I thought.

:D
 
Pinecone said:
30 max? Funny
We did instrument aerobatics in the T-38 sim.
Click to expand...
You probably didn't have 200 paying passengers riding behind you when you did.

I know a retired AF fighter pilot who transitioned to cargo flying. He eventually ended up at ACMI carrier that flew combi's with passenger seats. He still flew the airplane like he flew in the AF. At one point, the flight attendants called to=he cockpit and asked if he could stop doing that!
 
Pinecone said:
30 max? Funny

We did instrument aerobatics in the T-38 sim. :D

I was on an instrument ride and the controller kept turning me onto the localizer late. To intercept, I used 60 degrees of bank. It worked perfectly
Click to expand...
Ya coulda not done that, shoot through, and teach the Controller a lesson.
 
In Canada, 45° banked turns are taught in IFR training. I did one on my initial checkride, and taught them as an instructor. They come late in the training syllabus, though. You really have to have a handle on the scan.
 
Dan Thomas said:
In Canada, 45° banked turns are taught in IFR training. I did one on my initial checkride, and taught them as an instructor. They come late in the training syllabus, though. You really have to have a handle on the scan.
Click to expand...
Steep turns under the hood are part of the U.S. ATP, but we don’t recommend it in line service. ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
Steep turns under the hood are part of the U.S. ATP, but we don’t recommend it in line service. ;)
Click to expand...
I've asked to do those and unusual attitude recoveries hooded on Flight Reviews/IPC's. Just starting out with a Steep Turn sometimes gets both birds killed with one stone.
 
luvflyin said:
I've asked to do those and unusual attitude recoveries hooded on Flight Reviews/IPC's. Just starting out with a Steep Turn sometimes gets both birds killed with one stone.
Click to expand...
I’ve had people do steep turns under the hood with the stall horn sounding. Kills three birds. :D
 
texasclouds said:
an exponential increase
Click to expand...

Maybe I am being too literal - not exponential. Perhaps I have been looking at too many Covid charts?

Google sheets uses Radians for angle and so had to be converted to radians which makes a bit of a mess of it for reading the formula in Pilot terms.

upload_2022-7-26_19-36-30.png
 
Spring Ford said:
Maybe I am being too literal - not exponential. Perhaps I have been looking at too many Covid charts?

Google sheets uses Radians for angle and so had to be converted to radians which makes a bit of a mess of it for reading the formula in Pilot terms.

View attachment 108939
Click to expand...

I'm curious why you used sin (90-bank) instead of just cos (bank).

I agree it's technically not exponential, but I'm not sure what it would be called. It approaches infinity at 90 degrees, of course.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top